Pondering Grab house rule; comments welcome

[Derek Hiemforth]

Under the R.A.W., escaping from Grabs and Entangles works slightly differently, and I'm not sure I totally buy into any reasoning of why they should. So I'm thinking about unifying them.

 

As it stands, escaping from either a Grab or Entangle by 2x what you needed or more (i.e., doing more than 2x the BODY of an Entangle, or rolling 2x as much BODY as the Grabber rolled in a Grab's STR vs. STR roll) leaves the escapee with a Full Phase action. But the results of merely exceeding what you needed (i.e., 1x the BODY of the Entangle or Grab's STR vs. STR) are different. Escaping an Entangle that way leaves you with a Half Phase action, while escaping from a Grab that way ends your Phase.

 

I'm thinking about making them the same, and saying that escaping a Grab with a STR vs. STR result that's more than 1x the Grabber's, but less than 2x, leaves the escapee with a Half Phase in which to act. Does anyone think there might be undesirable consequences of this? The main possible one I can think of would be that the attacker with Grab had put himself in a more precarious position (1/2 DCV, etc.) than the attacker with Entangle, and that this might be a balancing factor to make Grabs worth the risk. But on the other hand, the attacker with Entangle paid extra points to be able to make that kind of attack, so...

 

Thoughts?

[secretID]

Re: Pondering Grab house rule; comments welcome

 

I had a player suggest that, and I declined. By my count, an entangle has three benefits over a grab:

1) no ongoing DCV penalty to attacker;

2) no OCV penalty to attacker;

3) attacker remains free to do something else (though it's true that with a grab the attacker can squeeze);

4) can be used with some maneuvers.

 

Advantages of a grab:

1) the breakout issue;

2) it's free;

3) it doesn't interfere with attacks on target.

 

The price issue doesn't really mean much to me, since entangles always seem to be in MPs.

 

I think that grab is probably a little too good as compared to entangle, but that making the breakout exactly the same is overcompensating.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Pondering Grab house rule; comments welcome

 

After some thought, I think unifying these two aspects of breaking out of being immobilized is good. One less thing to remember at the table.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Pondering Grab house rule; comments welcome

 

I had a player suggest that, and I declined. By my count, an entangle has three benefits over a grab:

1) no ongoing DCV penalty to attacker;

2) no OCV penalty to attacker;

3) attacker remains free to do something else (though it's true that with a grab the attacker can squeeze);

4) can be used with some maneuvers.

 

Advantages of a grab:

1) the breakout issue;

2) it's free;

3) it doesn't interfere with attacks on target.

 

The price issue doesn't really mean much to me, since entangles always seem to be in MPs.

 

I think that grab is probably a little too good as compared to entangle, but that making the breakout exactly the same is overcompensating.

Well, yes, Entangles are often in Multipowers, but the Multipowers themselves cost points. It's not like the Entangles are free...

 

I think you also left out one big thing in favor of Grab. It essentially acts like an Entangle that's allowed to be almost entirely DEF. With a Grab, you can't whittle it down. You have to get out of it entirely, otherwise it's just as hard to break out of next time as it was this time.

 

50 Active Points of Entangle (split the default way) is 5 PD/ED and 5 BODY (on average). So if you roll 8 BODY trying to escape, you fail, but do 3 BODY damage to it. Do that again next time, and you're free.

 

50 Active Points of STR used to Grab works (from the perspective of the character trying to escape) like 10 DEF, 1BODY. Assuming the Grabber rolls average on the STR vs. STR roll (10 BODY), your 8 BODY from the example above would do nothing. You're still just stuck, and will be just as stuck next Phase...

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Pondering Grab house rule; comments welcome

 

After some thought' date=' I think unifying these two aspects of breaking out of being immobilized is good. One less thing to remember at the table.[/quote']Yeah, to be honest, this is essentially what started me thinking about this. I seem to have a mental blind spot about this rule. I can always remember that Grab and Entangle work differently, but I never remember which one works which way. I always have to look it up.

[secretID]

Re: Pondering Grab house rule; comments welcome

 

Well' date=' yes, Entangles are often in Multipowers, but the Multipowers themselves cost points. It's not like the Entangles are free... [/quote']

Well, no, but assuming one were already to have an attack that could be MPed with an entangle, the marginal cost is only a handful of points.

 

I think you also left out one big thing in favor of Grab. It essentially acts like an Entangle that's allowed to be almost entirely DEF. With a Grab' date=' you can't whittle it down.[/quote']

Yeah - good point. I should mention that I'm pretty liberal with what actions are allowed when grabbed, including kicks in the shins and head butts, so while you can't whittle down the grab, you can whittle down the grabber. Also, anyone even a little munchkiney will max entangle DEF at the cost of BODY.

 

Thinking some more about this, it occurs to me that the balance depends in part on whether it's a team fight or a solo fight. I think the entangle is increasingly useful when there are more individuals involved in the fight, because: 1) the target's teammates can attack the grabber with high success; and 2) the more targets available, the more valuable it is to be able to fire an entangle and then move on to another target.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Pondering Grab house rule; comments welcome

 

Entangle is also vastly more useful against low power, high volume opponents. Agents tend not to be able to break out, even if you spread to hit some extra hexes.

[etherio]

Re: Pondering Grab house rule; comments welcome

 

...Does anyone think there might be undesirable consequences of this? The main possible one I can think of would be that the attacker with Grab had put himself in a more precarious position (1/2 DCV, etc.) than the attacker with Entangle, and that this might be a balancing factor to make Grabs worth the risk. But on the other hand, the attacker with Entangle paid extra points to be able to make that kind of attack, so...

 

Thoughts?

 

We've always played this way, and I've never felt it had any negative impact. In fact, it encourages back-and-forth escapes and reversals in a way that "feels" more like a grappling contest.

 

With the RAW, any escape can too easily be followed with another grab attempt by the original grabber...lame, when it keeps happening. And it's an easy way for a higher-DEX character to tie up an opponent, even if that opponent is a bit stronger.

 

By allowing a grabbed character his remaining half phase if he escapes successfully, the GM allows him the opportunity to attempt a grab of his own and begin a more dynamic grappling contest.

[Phil]

Re: Pondering Grab house rule; comments welcome

 

I definitely agree letting a character have a half phase after escaping a Grab. However, I do think it would be nice if you could have a tiered set of results. However, I'm not a fan of "Exceed by x2, get a full phase". I think you should only get a full phase if you've used Casual STR, anything else is an action of some sort of therefore should take *some* time. This shouldn't be limiting, because if you exceed by x2 using full STR, you probably *could* exceed using Casual STR and the casual STR attempt doesn't cost any actions to try (tho it does cost END).

 

Perhaps something like beat by 1, no action, beat by any more than that and you get a half phase non-movement action, beat by x2 and you can have a movement action if you wish.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Pondering Grab house rule; comments welcome

 

A standard Entangle also doesn't put you at 1/2 DCV, but a successful Grab does. There are a heck of a lot of other ways you can keep a target busy other than a Grab. If I were the target of the Grab, I'd plan on breaking free, Blocking the next Grab attempt, and then whopping some a**. I'm okay with the standard rules. There are some differences, but they complement the nature of the maneuver vs. Power IMO.

[Ice9]

Re: Pondering Grab house rule; comments welcome

 

I had a player suggest that, and I declined. By my count, an entangle has three benefits over a grab:

1) no ongoing DCV penalty to attacker;

2) no OCV penalty to attacker;

3) attacker remains free to do something else (though it's true that with a grab the attacker can squeeze);

4) can be used with some maneuvers.

 

Advantages of a grab:

1) the breakout issue;

2) it's free;

3) it doesn't interfere with attacks on target.

There's another big advantage of Entangle, though. With Grab, you get an automatic breakout roll (with casual Strength), at the moment it happens. With Entangle, you don't. So even a 1/1 Entangle can still freeze you in place long enough to get clobbered (and with 0 DCV, it's an easy hit).

[dmjalund]

Re: Pondering Grab house rule; comments welcome

 

There's another big advantage of Entangle' date=' though. With Grab, you get an automatic breakout roll (with casual Strength), at the moment it happens. With Entangle, you don't. So even a 1/1 Entangle can still freeze you in place long enough to get clobbered (and with 0 DCV, it's an easy hit).[/quote']somewhere i heard someone suggest that one should be able to escape an entangle in a zero phase action with casual strength

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Pondering Grab house rule; comments welcome

 

There's another big advantage of Entangle' date=' though. With Grab, you get an automatic breakout roll (with casual Strength), at the moment it happens. With Entangle, you don't. So even a 1/1 Entangle can still freeze you in place long enough to get clobbered (and with 0 DCV, it's an easy hit).[/quote']Interesting. I hadn't noticed this difference, but you're absolutely right. Hmm...

[Ice9]

Re: Pondering Grab house rule; comments welcome

 

somewhere i heard someone suggest that one should be able to escape an entangle in a zero phase action with casual strength

Probably a good house rule - it avoids the silliness of things like:

Laaag! - Entangle 1 BODY, 0 DEF, AoE (64m Radius, Accurate Selective; +2), No Range Modifier (+1/2), 20 active points

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Pondering Grab house rule; comments welcome

 

Probably a good house rule - it avoids the silliness of things like:

Laaag! - Entangle 1 BODY, 0 DEF, AoE (64m Radius, Accurate Selective; +2), No Range Modifier (+1/2), 20 active points

Of course, you can also simply use a GM to avoid such silliness...

[secretID]

Re: Pondering Grab house rule; comments welcome

 

somewhere i heard someone suggest that one should be able to escape an entangle in a zero phase action with casual strength

 

I believe that's semi-endorsed in the FAQ. IIRC, someone had raised the issue that even a wimpy entangle hurts DCV until the entangled character's phase, so it's subject to abuse. Allowing the immediate break fixes that.

 

But yes, good point about that other entangle advantage.

 

BTW, I did suggest to the player in question in my game that he meta-game a little more in his tactical decisions, e.g. hold an action until just before his next phase, so that he could break the grab and then counter attack before being grabbed again. Given the DCV penalty to the grabber, that's a pretty effective counter, if you can withstand one phase of squeeze. It looks like this:

A: strike

B: grab & squeeze

B: squeeze

A: breakout

A: strike

etc.