Size and DCV

[PhilFleischmann]

Two fighting humans with the same DEX need 11 or less to hit each other.

 

Two fighting inch-high pixies with the same DEX need -1 or less to hit each other. Even if they're performing maneuvers that have up to a -4 DCV penalty, they still only hit each other on a 3 on 3d6 (1 in 216 chance).

 

Two fighting 500-foot tall titans with the same DEX need 23 or less to hit each other. Even if they're performing maneuvers that have up to a -6 OCV penalty, they still only miss each other on an 18 on 3d6 (1 in 216 chance).

 

Is this OK with you? If not, what do you do about it? Granted, I'm using the most extreme examples to make a point, but this problem exists at any size other than "normal human."

 

My suggestion is to do something like what d20 has done. (I dislike deendee as much as anyone, but I have to admit when they do something right.) Each size bonus to DCV should come with an equal bonus to OCV for HTH only (not ranged). I still find this somewhat extreme, so I reduce the bonus to +/-1 for each size level, rather than +/-2.

 

With this rule, the two pixies hit each other on 11-, and the two titans hit each other on 11-.

A human hits a pixie on 5-.

A pixie hits a human on 17-.

A human hits a titan on 17-.

A titan hits a human on 5-.

A pixie hits a titan on 23-.

A titan hits a pixie on -1 or less.

 

And if your hand (or whatever weapon you're using) can completely cover a "proportional hex", it can be treated as an AE attack. By "proportional hex", I mean the amount of area equal to the proportion between a normal human and a normal hex, scaled down (or up) to the size of the target. A pixie 1/64 the size of a human has a proportional hex size 1/64 the diameter of a normal 1" hex, i.e., 1/64 x 2m = 1/32 m = about 3.125 cm. So it would be fairly easy to swat the pixie with your open hand, but it would be very difficult to skewer it on the point of your rapier. (Although it would be worth the effort. Pixies are mighty good eating, I hear.)

 

What do you think of this? I'm not entirely certain of it myself.

[Monolith]

I would think the levels of DCV purchased for the Pixie and the DCV lost because of the Physical Limitation for the titans probably have a -0 Limitation Only Versus Opponents Of Differing Sizes. So if you think about it in those terms, it makes sense. A titan his another titan on an 11- and a pixie hits another pixie on an 11-.

[GregF]

I don't think that accurately models the relativity of size either. When you have two different sizes (Say the human and the pixie), it would seem to make sense that they'd have the same bonuses to hit each other than a different pair of sizes but the same factor (Like the titan and the human).

[PhilFleischmann]

The -0 limitation would have to be "Only up to the difference in size between the combattants" to be more complete. In other words, where a human might have -12 to hit a one-inch pixie, a one-foot brownie would only have a -6 to hit the pixie. And it would have to work for larger creatures as well. A 12-foot giant would have -14 to hit the pixie, and the 500-foot titan would have -24 to hit the pixie.

 

This is consistant, but it seems a little extreme to me. If you reduce it to +1 DCV per halving, the human hits at -6, the brownie at -3, the giant at -7 and the titan at -12.

[Talon]

I haven't done anything about it, but the D&D solution is the most elegant I've seen.

 

Hero changes the size-altering rules every edition anyway, so I'm sure this will be changed in 6th.

[PhosphorRose]

I like the D&D method too. For anyone interested here's an expanded growth chart based on that method.

 

This is still very much in draft form.

 

POWERS

 

Size Powers

 

Differences in Growth and Shrinking OCVs and DCVs have been expanded and are listed completely in their respective entries.

 

 

GROWTH Modified

The effects of growth have been changed and expanded as listed in the growth chart and the new changes in that chart are as follows:

 

Hght & Wdth: The height and width listings are approximate between every doubling of 15pts. To get a closer figure, GMs may decide figuring these numbers to the closest one third and two thirds. Note that just as in Growth listed in FRED, these are non-absolute ranges.

 

CV & PER: This is the negative modifier for both OCV & DCV of the character as well as the positive modifier for others to perceive her and the negative modifier for the character to perceive things around her.

 

PRE: This is the presence bonus the character gains while in the larger form.

 

AE: This is the Area Effect attack the character has when using limbs and the character may now “attack the hex†instead of trying to hit the enemy’s DCV in combat.

 

Mv: This is the movement bonus for all forms of movement the character gains while in the larger form.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Size and DCV

 

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

Two fighting humans with the same DEX need 11 or less to hit each other.

 

Two fighting inch-high pixies with the same DEX need -1 or less to hit each other. Even if they're performing maneuvers that have up to a -4 DCV penalty, they still only hit each other on a 3 on 3d6 (1 in 216 chance).

 

Two fighting 500-foot tall titans with the same DEX need 23 or less to hit each other. Even if they're performing maneuvers that have up to a -6 OCV penalty, they still only miss each other on an 18 on 3d6 (1 in 216 chance).

 

Is this OK with you? If not, what do you do about it? Granted, I'm using the most extreme examples to make a point, but this problem exists at any size other than "normal human."

 

 

Here's the way I look at this issue:

 

Any role-playing combat is based on a human scale. Bonuses or penalties to DCV for characters who are smaller or larger than human scale reflect the logical (if not always real-world accurate)assumption that it's easier to hit a target larger, or harder to hit a target smaller, than what you're used to fighting.

 

Let's think about the implications of that for a second. A human being will be a virtual bug next to a 500-foot titan. If such a titan were actually able to hit a human being with a non-AoE attack (like the edge of a blade - ever try to cut a moving fly with a knife?) on an 11-, he would (logically) have to be exceptionally good at hitting small moving objects, either through innate talent or training. It would (logically) follow that he would be much better at striking targets much larger than that, like another titan.

 

Going in the reverse direction, a human being would be a virtual mountain next to an inch-high pixie. If said pixie can only hit a human-sized target on an 11-, even if the DEX of the target is the same as his, his pixie-fu can't be very strong. It wouldn't be very surprising if he has more difficulty successfully attacking something closer to his own size, again working strictly on the basis of logic.

 

Now obviously this is an oversimplification of the dynamics of combat; there are many other factors in the SFX of combat that could have an effect on the interraction between characters of different sizes. However most of the time it won't even be an issue since the scale of the game will almost always be human. For times when it is an issue, such as a human suddenly shrunk to the size of a pixie and forced to duel one of their doughty warriors, I prefer to adjudicate on a case-by-case basis. For this example I might rule that the human, now being the same size as the pixie, could hit him as if he were human sized since the human is used to fighting foes the same size as him; OTOH if the pixie is accustomed to attacking beings much larger, the human might now have a significant DCV advantage over him. Or you could say that the pixie is also used to dueling other pixies and so takes no penalty against same-size foes.

 

If you really wanted to set up a mechanic for this situation, I would suggest just giving huge or tiny creatures Limited CSLs "Only/Not Vs. Much Larger/Smaller Creatures." Admittedly you'd be creating more expensive, exceptional members of their races, but this is going to be an exceptional circumstance anyway.

 

But that's just me. As always YMMV.

[austenandrews]

I'd approach the issue in a slightly different way. To solve the problem of same-size people having no size bonus/penalty, just reduce the DCV modifier by the difference (that is, net DCV mod = (defender's DCV mod) - (attacker's DCV mod)). Then the DCV modifier acts as normal. This methods seems simpler to remember & calculate.

 

DCV of little people against little people:

 

- regular-size (+0 DCV) v. regular-size (+0 DCV): 0-0 = +0 DCV

- small (+3 DCV) v. regular-size (+0 DCV): +3-0 = +3 DCV

- tiny (+5 DCV) v. regular-size (+0 DCV): +5-0 = +5 DCV

- tiny (+5 DCV) v. small (+3 DCV) = +5-(+3) = +2 DCV

- tiny (+5 DCV) v. tiny (+5 DCV) = +5-(+5) = +0 DCV

 

DCV of big people against big people:

 

- huge (-3 DCV) v. regular-size (+0 DCV) = -3-0 = -3 DCV

- giant (-5 DCV) v. regular-size (+0 DCV) = -5-0 = -5 DCV

- giant (-5 DCV) v. huge (-3 DCV) = -5-(-3) = -2 DCV

- giant (-5 DCV) v. giant (-5 DCV) = -5-(-5) = -0 DCV

 

You can extend this method to combat between big people and small people. I probably wouldn't do that, but the math works out:

 

DCV of big people against little people:

 

- huge (-3 DCV) v. small (+3 DCV) = -3-(+3) = -6 DCV

- huge (-3 DCV) v. tiny (+5 DCV) = -3-(+5) = -8 DCV

- giant (-5 DCV) v. small (+3 DCV) = -5-(+3) = -8 DCV

- giant (-5 DCV) v. tiny (+5 DCV) = -5-(+5) = -10 DCV

 

DCV of little people against big people:

 

- small (+3 DCV) v. huge (-3 DCV) = +3-(-3) = +6 DCV

- small (+3 DCV) v. giant (-5 DCV) = +3-(-5) = +8 DCV

- tiny (+5 DCV) v. huge (-3 DCV) = +5-(-3) = +8 DCV

- tiny (+5 DCV) v. giant (-5 DCV) = +5-(-5) = +10 DCV

 

NOTE: I would not apply this rule to the DCV of normal-size people. Characters with Shrinking/Growth (and equivalent constructs) are specifically changing their DCV. Normal-size people shouldn't be penalized for being normal-size, IMO. Should Frodo hit Boromir more easily because he's little? Should the cave troll hit Boromir less often? Somehow that doesn't ring true to me. That's one reason I prefer DCV modifiers to OCV modifiers. (The main reason, though, is for simplicity.)

 

However, the method does work if you do want to apply it to normals:

 

DCV of regular-size people:

 

- regular-size(+0 DCV) v. huge (-3 DCV) = 0-(-3) = +3 DCV

- regular-size(+0 DCV) v. giant (-5 DCV) = 0-(-5) = +5 DCV

- regular-size(+0 DCV) v. small (+3 DCV) = 0-(+3) = -3 DCV

- regular-size(+0 DCV) v. tiny (+5 DCV) = 0-(+5) = -5 DCV

 

Hopefully that makes some sense.

 

-AA

[Lord Liaden]

I find that very sensible, Austen. It's logical and consistent. I agree with not applying this to normal sized people; as I described in my earlier post, that's the median standard for combat in most games.

[tiger]

Issue has not realy come up as of yet. I've been using the modifiers listed for the creatures I've used and evrything has worked out well.

 

I do like the chart/system from AA here, might have to use it

[Nuke]

Originally posted by austenandrews

I'd approach the issue in a slightly different way. To solve the problem of same-size people having no size bonus/penalty, just reduce the DCV modifier by the difference (that is, net DCV mod = (defender's DCV mod) - (attacker's DCV mod)). Then the DCV modifier acts as normal. This methods seems simpler to remember & calculate.

 

DCV of little people against little people:

 

- regular-size (+0 DCV) v. regular-size (+0 DCV): 0-0 = +0 DCV

- small (+3 DCV) v. regular-size (+0 DCV): +3-0 = +3 DCV

- tiny (+5 DCV) v. regular-size (+0 DCV): +5-0 = +5 DCV

- tiny (+5 DCV) v. small (+3 DCV) = +5-(+3) = +2 DCV

- tiny (+5 DCV) v. tiny (+5 DCV) = +5-(+5) = +0 DCV

 

DCV of big people against big people:

 

- huge (-3 DCV) v. regular-size (+0 DCV) = -3-0 = -3 DCV

- giant (-5 DCV) v. regular-size (+0 DCV) = -5-0 = -5 DCV

- giant (-5 DCV) v. huge (-3 DCV) = -5-(-3) = -2 DCV

- giant (-5 DCV) v. giant (-5 DCV) = -5-(-5) = -0 DCV

 

You can extend this method to combat between big people and small people. I probably wouldn't do that, but the math works out:

 

DCV of big people against little people:

 

- huge (-3 DCV) v. small (+3 DCV) = -3-(+3) = -6 DCV

- huge (-3 DCV) v. tiny (+5 DCV) = -3-(+5) = -8 DCV

- giant (-5 DCV) v. small (+3 DCV) = -5-(+3) = -8 DCV

- giant (-5 DCV) v. tiny (+5 DCV) = -5-(+5) = -10 DCV

 

DCV of little people against big people:

 

- small (+3 DCV) v. huge (-3 DCV) = +3-(-3) = +6 DCV

- small (+3 DCV) v. giant (-5 DCV) = +3-(-5) = +8 DCV

- tiny (+5 DCV) v. huge (-3 DCV) = +5-(-3) = +8 DCV

- tiny (+5 DCV) v. giant (-5 DCV) = +5-(-5) = +10 DCV

 

NOTE: I would not apply this rule to the DCV of normal-size people. Characters with Shrinking/Growth (and equivalent constructs) are specifically changing their DCV. Normal-size people shouldn't be penalized for being normal-size, IMO. Should Frodo hit Boromir more easily because he's little? Should the cave troll hit Boromir less often? Somehow that doesn't ring true to me. That's one reason I prefer DCV modifiers to OCV modifiers. (The main reason, though, is for simplicity.)

 

However, the method does work if you do want to apply it to normals:

 

DCV of regular-size people:

 

- regular-size(+0 DCV) v. huge (-3 DCV) = 0-(-3) = +3 DCV

- regular-size(+0 DCV) v. giant (-5 DCV) = 0-(-5) = +5 DCV

- regular-size(+0 DCV) v. small (+3 DCV) = 0-(+3) = -3 DCV

- regular-size(+0 DCV) v. tiny (+5 DCV) = 0-(+5) = -5 DCV

 

Hopefully that makes some sense.

 

-AA

 

If you wanted to be very technical and have an additional rule that makes sense, you could also say that any creature attacking a smaller creature whose DCV is say 6 more because of size, the larger creature automatically gains the "Area Affect: Hex" advantage against the smaller.

 

Our GM roughly uses this rule, with a slight modification. The attack is area affect AND verses DCV. So, if you dive for cover and the attack still hits you, you are hit. If you don't dive for cover and the attack hits the hex, you are hit.

 

This is to simulate how large creatures can have a huge advantage when striking against small creatures. Our GM does not use this with all giant creatures, just those who are able to move with some dexterity still in combat.