Sensory Input (5e)

[BlueCloud2k2]

Okay, I'm working on an alien race based loosely upon the Hexosehr from John Ringo's Vorpal Blade books. The race I'm building is similar in concept in that they are blind and use Sonar and Radar to view their surroundings. I am removing the Hexosehr inability to speak in our hearing range without a computer assistant...

 

Physical Description: The Squee (based on the sound they make when they speak) are squid-like arthropods. They have 4 legs and 6 arms. Their arms are radial symetrical as are their legs. They have a mouth near the top of their head and no eyes. They "see" by using pulses of Sonar and Radar. Their vocal range varies from below human hearing to just above human hearing. They have a hard time understanding 2-dimensional imagery, as their technical input systems create a 3-d environment of sound/radar input. Their language is a mixture of Sonar Pulses and Radar Pulses, although they can modulate the sounds they make to communicate with other species.

 

Thus so far I have the following for the Racial Package:

 

Disadvantages:

25 Physical: Blind (All the time, Fully Impairing)

15 Physical: Small Stature (All the Time, Slightly Impairing)

 

Powers:

5 4 Legs, 6 Arms - Extra Limbs

 

Squee Sensory Abilities

29 Active Sonar (Detect Limited Class of Physical Objects [5 Character Points], Targeting +10, Active +0, Sense +2, Transmit +2, Discriminatory +5, 360' Perception +5)

34 Radar (Detect Limited Class of Physical Objects [5 Character Points], Targeting +10, Active +0, Sense +2, Transmit +2, Discriminatory +5, Analyze +5, 360' Perception +5)

3 Ultrasonic Perception (Detect Ultrasonic Sound [3 Character Points], Passive +0)

 

Powers Cost 71

Disads Cost 40

Package Cost 31

 

Does this look right? Do they still need to buy Ultrasonic perception even with Sonar? If they are able to detect Radar, do they need to spend another 3 points for that?

[Rapier]

Re: Sensory Input (5e)

 

Being Blind is not a Disadvantage if you having another targetting, discriminatory sense that replaces it. Doubly so since the Sonar and Radar senses you've purchased are superior (being 360 degrees) to normal sight.

 

I also think you've overpriced the size limitation. It's hard to say what it's worth since you don't say how tall they are, but a 1m tall creature only qualifies for a 10 point Disad for size (Infreq, Slight). Size Disads aren't meant to say 'how often are you little' but 'how often does being so little impact what you do?' If you are talking about another race, chances are they have chairs and countertops built according to their size so this would not be much of a limitation at all. It's not like a race of beings that are 3' tall are going to build work surfaces 5' tall.

 

Other than the Disad issues, it looks good.

[Beast]

Re: Sensory Input (5e)

 

the only limitation I can see for them is that they cannot read a book or tv screen

so any scanner or such will need to either use a direct input or some sort of 3d physical construct like those nail boards that can do an image of your face or hand if you place it there

[BlueCloud2k2]

Re: Sensory Input (5e)

 

How is this:

 

15 Physical: Unable to view flat surfaces/holograms (All The time, Slightly).

 

5 Physical: Small Stature (3" tall, 50 kg mass, +3 KB)(Infrequently, Slightly). (I originally just renamed this Disad from the one in FRED pg 218)

 

As for the blindness issue, I'm basically taking the points they would get for Vision and moving them into another sense (does that make sense? lol). It feels like this race is being penalized for having a different set of sensory apparatus. Normal Vision is worth 25 points, shouldnt those 25 points take the place of some of the points in his Sensory Suite? I seem to remember Daredevil being written up with the Blind disad and replacing it with a passive Sonar/Targeting Hearing sense... the only difference between this race and DD is that theirs is Active and they have two forms of the same power - sound and radar.

[Mr Reasonable]

Re: Sensory Input (5e)

 

This is an old Hero saw. If you can not see, that is worth a disadvantage/complication even if you replace the missing sense with a comparable other, because you have to pay for that other sense.

 

The best way to deal with it, a way Hero unfortunately does not approve, is to buy back your vision and buy up your other sense.

[BlueCloud2k2]

Re: Sensory Input (5e)

 

This is an old Hero saw. If you can not see, that is worth a disadvantage/complication even if you replace the missing sense with a comparable other, because you have to pay for that other sense.

 

The best way to deal with it, a way Hero unfortunately does not approve, is to buy back your vision and buy up your other sense.

 

I seem to remember somewhere in FRED that it said to do exactly that... but when I went looking for it I could not find it...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sensory Input (5e)

 

Being Blind is not a Disadvantage if you having another targetting' date=' discriminatory sense that replaces it. Doubly so since the Sonar and Radar senses you've purchased are superior (being 360 degrees) to normal sight.[/quote']

 

I side with Mr. Reasonable on this one - you PAID for the new sense, so why should you not recover points for losing the old sense? If one character has sonar, radar and sight, and the other has sonar and radar but no sight, clearly the first has an advantage and that should be reflected in points. Otherwise, why not just buy 360 degree sight, define it as radar and sonar, and call it a day. You can spend some of the points saved on Flash Defense for the fact that Sight Flash won't affect you, and take a Physical Lim for "hearing and radar flash work like sight flash".

 

I also think you've overpriced the size limitation. It's hard to say what it's worth since you don't say how tall they are' date=' but a 1m tall creature only qualifies for a 10 point Disad for size (Infreq, Slight). Size Disads aren't meant to say 'how often are you little' but 'how often does being so little impact what you do?' If you are talking about another race, chances are they have chairs and countertops built according to their size so this would not be much of a limitation at all. It's not like a race of beings that are 3' tall are going to build work surfaces 5' tall.[/quote']

 

Part of the Size Limitation is the increased knockback these characters take.

 

This is an old Hero saw. If you can not see, that is worth a disadvantage/complication even if you replace the missing sense with a comparable other, because you have to pay for that other sense.

 

The best way to deal with it, a way Hero unfortunately does not approve, is to buy back your vision and buy up your other sense.

 

What? hero fully approves selling back sight rather than taking a Physical Limitation. Well, 6e Hero does - maybe it's time to upgrade.

[Rapier]

Re: Sensory Input (5e)

 

I side with Mr. Reasonable on this one - you PAID for the new sense' date=' so why should you not recover points for losing the old sense? If one character has sonar, radar and sight, and the other has sonar and radar but no sight, clearly the first has an advantage and that should be reflected in points. Otherwise, why not just buy 360 degree sight, define it as radar and sonar, and call it a day. You can spend some of the points saved on Flash Defense for the fact that Sight Flash won't affect you, and take a Physical Lim for "hearing and radar flash work like sight flash".[/quote']

 

Because that's not how it worked in 5E. In 5E, the existence of a power that offset the Disadvantage drastically reduced or negated the value of the Disadvantage. In this case, since the new sense power is more powerful than Normal Sight, it doesn't seem to warrant any value at all. This character also now has the added benefit of being totally immune to Sight Flashes. It seems like this deal gets better and better.

 

What? hero fully approves selling back sight rather than taking a Physical Limitation. Well, 6e Hero does - maybe it's time to upgrade.

 

[tongue-in-cheek]But then all the Figured Characteristics go away![/tongue-in-cheek] This is specifically a 6E kind of thing. Which, I guess someone could bring into their 5E game without too much difficulty.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sensory Input (5e)

 

Because that's not how it worked in 5E. In 5E' date=' the existence of a power that offset the Disadvantage drastically reduced or negated the value of the Disadvantage. In this case, since the new sense power is more powerful than Normal Sight, it doesn't seem to warrant any value at all. This character also now has the added benefit of being totally immune to Sight Flashes. It seems like this deal gets better and better.[/quote']

 

The fact that it's not how it worked in 5e is a flaw in 5e, not a flaw in the theory. If the character spent 25 points on a sense that was exactly equal to sight, then took "Blind" as a disadvantage for 25 points, he effectively became a character with 25 points less disadvantages, and 25 points less in total, than a character who had normal sight. By not allowing him the disadvantage either, he is even more handicapped, losing 25 character points with no compensation at all. Why should he "give back" his sight for no compensation?

 

The character who paid for radar and sonar, and DID NOT take "blindness" is just as invulnerable to sight flashes. He can also still target in a Sound and Radar Dampening Field, perceive colours and viewscreens and do other things the blind character with sonar and radar cannot.

 

Clearly, he also has advantages over a sighted character. He paid points (63 points from the OP writup) for those advantages, so he's entitled to them.

 

[tongue-in-cheek]But then all the Figured Characteristics go away![/tongue-in-cheek] This is specifically a 6E kind of thing. Which' date=' I guess someone could bring into their 5E game without too much difficulty.[/quote']

 

Adopting the sell back approach in 5e would not exactly be game breaking. Maybe slightly game modifying. Way more equitable to a character which has a sensory suite which differs, both positively and negatively, from the human template.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sensory Input (5e)

 

Adopting the sell back approach in 5e would not exactly be game breaking. Maybe slightly game modifying. Way more equitable to a character which has a sensory suite which differs' date=' both positively and negatively, from the human template.[/quote']

 

Plenty of people did do it with 5E, without it becoming unbalancing. We've had this argument many times before.

[BlueCloud2k2]

Re: Sensory Input (5e)

 

Okay! So it looks as if selling back normal vision is GM's perogative, but it would be acceptable. So how does this look for a racial package deal:

 

Ability (Cost)

+3 INT (3)

+3 EGO (6)

Talents (Cost)

Aquatic Evolution: Aquatic Environmental Movement (3)

Cephalopodic Body: Double Jointed (4)

Radial Symetry: Ambidexterity (3)

Powers (Cost)

Aqua-Jet: +4" Swimming (4)

Aquatic Evolution: LS: Breathing - Underwater (5)

Cephalopodic Body: Extra Limbs - +4 Arms, +2 Legs (5)

Cephalopodic Regeneration: Healing 1d6, Can Heal Limbs, 0 END (+1/2), Persistant (+1/2), Always On (-1/2), Heals 1 Pip per Hour (-2) (8)

Active Sonar (Detect Limited Class of Physical Objects [5 Character Points], Targeting +10, Active +0, Sense +2, Transmit +2, Discriminatory +5, 360' Perception +5) (29)

Radar (Detect Limited Class of Physical Objects [5 Character Points], Targeting +10, Active +0, Sense +2, Transmit +2, Discriminatory +5, Analyze +5, 360' Perception +5)(34)

Ultrasonic Perception (Detect Ultrasonic Sound [3 Character Points], Passive +0) (3)

Sellback Vision (-25)

 

Disadvantages (Cost)

Physical: Unable to view flat surfaces/holograms (All The time, Slightly) (15)

Physical: Small Stature (3" tall, 50 kg mass, +3 KB)(Infrequently, Slightly). (5)

 

Package Cost: 53 Points

 

Ouch! Costly little buggers.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Sensory Input (5e)

 

I think you could get points for either selling back vision or take a Physical Disad for not having it, but I wouldn't take both. I would also point out that any Disad would be dependent on the setting. For the Squee homeworld there is hardly a limitation since their society will be geared toward non-visual information transfer. In fact a human there would be the one with the Disad.

 

I have not read the books, so I am unfamiliar with this alien race, but I wouldn't bother buying Radar myself for 3 reasons. First, as you noted, it is expensive, and from a gaming standpoint somewhat redundant. Biologically it is also redundant; it makes little sense to devote so much sensory power to two entirely different senses. That is why humans have excellent sight but dogs have excellent olfactory powers. It is hard to make room in your brain to process both, so few creatures will have evolved like that. From a physical standpoint, radar doesn't work underwater, so one wonders why they would have developed it at all (unless you are using radar as a stand-in for a similar ability at a much different wavelength; even so the range is going to be restricted underwater). Of course you can take this "realism" with a grain of salt; Star Wars was great fun even if it didn't make a lick of sense sometimes.

[BlueCloud2k2]

Re: Sensory Input (5e)

 

I think you could get points for either selling back vision or take a Physical Disad for not having it, but I wouldn't take both. I would also point out that any Disad would be dependent on the setting. For the Squee homeworld there is hardly a limitation since their society will be geared toward non-visual information transfer. In fact a human there would be the one with the Disad.

 

I have not read the books, so I am unfamiliar with this alien race, but I wouldn't bother buying Radar myself for 3 reasons. First, as you noted, it is expensive, and from a gaming standpoint somewhat redundant. Biologically it is also redundant; it makes little sense to devote so much sensory power to two entirely different senses. That is why humans have excellent sight but dogs have excellent olfactory powers. It is hard to make room in your brain to process both, so few creatures will have evolved like that. From a physical standpoint, radar doesn't work underwater, so one wonders why they would have developed it at all (unless you are using radar as a stand-in for a similar ability at a much different wavelength; even so the range is going to be restricted underwater). Of course you can take this "realism" with a grain of salt; Star Wars was great fun even if it didn't make a lick of sense sometimes.

 

How much difference is there between Sonar and Radar (other than one uses sound waves and the other uses low-powered radio waves...

 

That said, you are correct that Radar doesn't work underwater. Therefor I will remove the Radar Sense.

 

I am thinking that the Squee would use Armored Combat Suits and that they would be equiped with Radar arrays that translate the data into the Sonar Images... not really sure on that...

 

Thus I present the Squee, MkIII

 

Ability (Cost)

+3 INT (3)

+3 EGO (6)

Talents (Cost)

Aquatic Evolution: Aquatic Environmental Movement (3)

Cephalopodic Body: Double Jointed (4)

Radial Symetry: Ambidexterity (3)

Powers (Cost)

Aqua-Jet: +4" Swimming (4)

Aquatic Evolution: LS: Breathing - Underwater (5)

Cephalopodic Body: Extra Limbs - +4 Arms, +2 Legs (5)

Cephalopodic Regeneration: Healing 1d6, Can Heal Limbs, 0 END (+1/2), Persistant (+1/2), Always On (-1/2), Heals 1 Pip per Hour (-2) (8)

Active Sonar (Detect Limited Class of Physical Objects [5 Character Points], Targeting +10, Active +0, Sense +2, Transmit +2, Discriminatory +5, 360' Perception +5) (29)

Ultrasonic Perception (Detect Ultrasonic Sound [3 Character Points], Passive +0) (3)

Sellback Vision (-25)

 

Disadvantages (Cost)

Physical: Small Stature (3" tall, 50 kg mass, +3 KB)(Infrequently, Slightly). (5)

 

Package Cost: 43 Points

 

And I realized I forgot to enter all of MkII's data into my spreadsheet and the math was WRONG. *sigh*

 

I'm thinking I need some more disads... maybe a racial superiority complex "You humans think you are so great. Who Developed the Universal Translater? Who gave you the Quantum Space Drive? You wouldn't have half of your pathetic empire without the technological might of the Squee! And we kept our greatest inventions for ourselves, knowing you would someday attempt to subjegate the Squee! as you have the other races. Do not provoke the Squee! We will crush you beneith our Psuedopods!"

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Sensory Input (5e)

 

From a practical standpoint, the only difference between Radar and Sonar is where you can use them. Sonar works great underwater, but not in vacuum. Radar, vice versa. Both basically give you a topographical map of your surroundings, but probably not fine detail. High-powered versions can give you info about density and such.

 

If you want other cost breaks, I would consider that the Squee developed underwater initially, and so might not be as capable on land (I have to think they developed most of their current civilization on land though, since it is hard to imagine an advanced society that didn't tame fire early on). As such they might be effectively amphibious. They might have Dependency on water, Vulnerability to heat/fire, or you might sell back some of their running.

 

Out from left field, they might have physical limitations like narcolepsy or that alcohol is a deadly toxin. Humans might take that as a major weakness, but the Squee probably boggle at the human's sad inability to regenerate or breath underwater.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sensory Input (5e)

 

Which objects are invisible or difficult to detect are also going to be different for Sonar vs. Radar, as sound waves and radio waves interact very differently with various materials.

[Mr Reasonable]

Re: Sensory Input (5e)

 

..............

What? hero fully approves selling back sight rather than taking a Physical Limitation. Well, 6e Hero does - maybe it's time to upgrade.

 

 

Sorry, you're quite right; I had not looked at it for a while. However, if I have this right, the 'cost' of vision is not calculated correctly.

 

I make vision:

10 Large class of things detect

5 Ranged

2 Sense

10 Targeting

3 Discriminatory (-1/2: partial)

 

That comes out at 30 points and Book 2 says it is worth 35. Not a major issue - but anyone have any idea where the other 5 points come in?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sensory Input (5e)

 

If they are so tiny, should a typical member of the species have reduced physical characteristics (eg. STR, BOD)?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sensory Input (5e)

 

Sorry, you're quite right; I had not looked at it for a while. However, if I have this right, the 'cost' of vision is not calculated correctly.

 

I make vision:

10 Large class of things detect

5 Ranged

2 Sense

10 Targeting

3 Discriminatory (-1/2: partial)

 

That comes out at 30 points and Book 2 says it is worth 35. Not a major issue - but anyone have any idea where the other 5 points come in?

 

Sight seems pretty discriminatory to me - why would it be partial? I can tell quite a bit about something I look at - if anything, maybe it's Limited Analyze.

 

OH, OK BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THE BOOK SAYS

 

Seems to me determining religion, ethnicity, etc. goes well beyond "discriminatory" and maybe even "analyze". The Detect Minerals example doesn't tell me who dug it out of the ground or where it originated, after all.

[torchwolf]

Re: Sensory Input (5e)

 

Sorry, you're quite right; I had not looked at it for a while. However, if I have this right, the 'cost' of vision is not calculated correctly.

 

I make vision:

10 Large class of things detect

5 Ranged

2 Sense

10 Targeting

3 Discriminatory (-1/2: partial)

 

That comes out at 30 points and Book 2 says it is worth 35. Not a major issue - but anyone have any idea where the other 5 points come in?

Partially Penetrative - visually transparent substances?

[BlueCloud2k2]

Re: Sensory Input (5e)

 

If they are so tiny' date=' should a typical member of the species have reduced physical characteristics (eg. STR, BOD)?[/quote']

 

Very True. I'm still working out the details but that is a good point.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sensory Input (5e)

 

Partially Penetrative - visually transparent substances?

 

I don't think so - IIRC, "penetrative" is the ability to perceive through something that would typically block the sense (so I could buy penetrative on Radar to let it work through water, I suppose).

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Sensory Input (5e)

 

I don't think so - IIRC' date=' "penetrative" is the ability to perceive through something that would typically block the sense (so I could buy penetrative on Radar to let it work through water, I suppose).[/quote']

 

You could, but the point of Penetrative is to build powers that have the effect you are looking for rather than circumventing physics because its convenient. Okay, that sounded a lot snarkier than I intended. I mean to say that I might buy Penetrative Radar to hunt for archeological ruins or missile silos underground because that is the effect I want, but the reason radar doesn't work underwater is that the water absorbs that band of the spectrum fairly strongly so there is no reflected wave for the radar to work; it would be like buying Sonar that somehow worked in a vacuum. Of course in an RPG physics are only guidelines, not laws, so maybe you have a special radar with a quantum entanglement or somesuch that ignores the absorbtion problem. Or maybe you don't care. Just as long as everyone in the game is on the same page and okay with it.