Based on Constitution Discrepancy

[ideasmith]

Normal Range (-1/4) (6E1 page 154)

Alternate Combat Value (-0) (6E1 page 318)

Attack Versus Alternate Defense (-1) (6E1 page 325)

Perceivable (-1/2) (6E1 page 387)

Subject To Range Modifier ( -1/4) (6E1 page 388)

Works Against CON, Not EGO (-3/4) (Seems About Right)

Responds To First Person To Give Relevant Command/Statement (-1/2) (Seems About Right)

Belongs To Different Sense Group (Mind Scan/Telepathy only) (-0) (Seems About Right)

Total (-3 ¼)

 

But:

 

Based On Con (-1) (6E1 page 153)

 

Why the discrepancy?

[ShadowEater]

Re: Based on Constitution Discrepancy

 

I've wondered the same thing. Mental Powers just get a lot of 'freebies' in the system, and making a power not mental anymore drops them. Not fair really, but that is my guess as to what is going on. In most games I've played, EGO and CON are comparable stats, so I'd adjust the chart you wrote to say Works Against CON, not EGO -0.

[Ice9]

Re: Based on Constitution Discrepancy

 

Likewise, I'd say that "CON instead of EGO" is -0, or -1/4 at most. Con isn't usually that much higher.

"Responds To First Person To Give Relevant Command/Statement", is usually not that much of a limitation, given that you're usually going to be ready to capitalize on your own attack.

 

Still, that's at least -2. Personally, I think "Based on CON" mental powers should go against Power Defense, not PD/ED. That would match the limitation value, and would be more logical for most uses (how exactly is your chainmail helping you resist those pheromones, again?).

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Based on Constitution Discrepancy

 

To me, making a Based On CON Mental Power a NND vs. Life Support (Immunity to relevant Poison) or a successful CON Roll makes even more sense than against Power Defense.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Based on Constitution Discrepancy

 

Still' date=' that's at least -2. Personally, I think "Based on CON" mental powers should go against Power Defense, not PD/ED. That would match the limitation value, and would be more logical for most uses (how exactly is your chainmail helping you resist those pheromones, again?).[/quote']This is a very good point. It might be something to bring up when it comes time for APG2, and particularly for 7th Edition HERO (which is many years off, of course, but I like to keep notes).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Based on Constitution Discrepancy

 

Part of the problem is that mental powers get a great many freebies (IPE and Line of Sight Range) in particular. Try rebuilding an Ego Blast using Blast and advantages. But this tends to be offset by the Unwritten Rule of the Table that mentalists will not be permitted to maximize the benefit from these advantages, which really make them spectacular snipers. Slapping "detectable" and "normal range modifiers" the typical mental attack, simply because the player knows they will not be permitted to use the benefits of IPE and unlimited range to their full effect anyway, makes these powers pretty low cost.

 

Of course, we also tend to forget one limiter to mental powers that, I believe, goes away with "based on CON", being the restriction on classes of mind affected. I personally don't like the CoM rules, but they do provide an additional limitation on mental powers.

[ShadowEater]

Re: Based on Constitution Discrepancy

 

Class of Mind still applies, to the best of my knowledge, to 'based on CON' attacks... kind of makes sense that they do in any case, because my pharmacology won't have much effect on my PC anyways.

[ideasmith]

Re: Based on Constitution Discrepancy

 

I've wondered the same thing. Mental Powers just get a lot of 'freebies' in the system' date=' and making a power not mental anymore drops them. Not fair really, but that is my guess as to what is going on. In most games I've played, EGO and CON are comparable stats, so I'd adjust the chart you wrote to say Works Against CON, not EGO -0.[/quote']

Likewise' date=' I'd say that "CON instead of EGO" is -0, or -1/4 at most. Con isn't usually that much higher. [/quote']

Actually doing the math on the Superhero Gallery (6th Edition Champions, pages 243-287) yields CON being an average of 8.409836066 points higher than EGO. An average of 8 points and change is a much smaller difference than I thought, and indeed not worth -3/4. It looks near the border between -1/4 and -1/2 to me.

"Responds To First Person To Give Relevant Command/Statement"' date=' is usually not that much of a limitation, given that you're usually going to be ready to capitalize on your own attack. [/quote']

I think it’s Dex rolls to see who talks first. I haven’t spotted anything in the rules that really nails this question down, however.

 

Still' date=' that's at least -2. Personally, I think "Based on CON" mental powers should go against Power Defense, not PD/ED. That would match the limitation value, and would be more logical for most uses (how exactly is your chainmail helping you resist those pheromones, again?).[/quote']

Based on CON is looking pretty redundant to me. Maybe just have characters take the component parts?

[ideasmith]

Re: Based on Constitution Discrepancy

 

I asked Steve Long some relevant questions:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/81918-Some-Questions-Related-to-Based-On-Con

 

Based on that and the above discussions, this is my new opinions:

 

Normal Range (-1/4) (6E1 page 154)

Alternate Combat Value (-0) (6E1 page 318)

Attack Versus Alternate Defense (-1) (6E1 page 325)

Perceivable (-1/2) (6E1 page 387)

Subject To Range Modifier ( -1/4) (6E1 page 388)

Works Against CON, Not EGO (-1/4) (Seems About Right)

Responds To First Person To Give Relevant Command/Statement (-1/4) (Seems About Right)

Total (-2 1/2)