New Limitation on DCV?

[Demonsong]

New Limitation on DCV

 

To represent a Sword Master to counter act the DCV = 1/2 penalty for using the Sweep maneuver. Essentially I was thinking the character would buy enough 5 point levels of DVC to double his normal DCV them put on a Limitation on it (Only to counter penalties from Sweep maneuver). Any way how big of a limitation should it be? If it important this is for a Fantasy Hero Game.

 

Example: Sword Master with a DEX of 18, DVC of 6. He buys 6 level of DCV +1 for 30 points them puts a limitation on it.

 

-1/2 Only to counter act penalties for sweep. For a cost 20pts

or

-1 Only to counter act penalties for sweep. For a cost 15pts

or

-2 Only to counter act penalties for sweep. For a cost 10pts

 

I am thinking the -1 is about right.

 

Thanks for your input.

[eepjr24]

DCV only to offset sweep

 

I would go with -1/2. My reasoning:

 

-1/2 = Character will be limited about a third of the time. I just cannot see why a character with this power would NOT sweep in a given phase. So essentially, he would always have the bonus, unless he was out of HTH combat. Give that swordfighting is his schtick, I doubt that he will need DCV and be out of HTH combat more than 1/3 of the time. If the character had methods to ensure that he could get into HTH combat VERY quickly (teleport spell, 10" running, 5" leaping, etc) I might even go down to a -1/4.

 

The only way I would go with the -1 is if the character was well below campaign max for CSL's and/or OCV-DCV and wanted to count these as his CSL's, making this his "trick". I will waive alot to give one unique thing to a character if they are willing to make other sacrifices to make up for it.

 

- Ernie

[prestidigitator]

I would go with Only for Specific Maneuver (-1) (which basically reflects the minimum "Limitation" that could account for the difference between 5-point and 2-point Combat Skill Levels). Why should +1 DCV with one specific maneuver be more expensive than +1 OCV with one specific maneuver? Aren't defenses supposed to be at least as cheap as offenses?

 

As for why the character will not perform a Sweep, that could be explained by the fact that it is still takes a full Phase (unless the character has spent significant points for Rapid Attack), and still imposes a -2 on all attacks for each additional attack in the Sweep (unless the character has also spent points to increase his/her OCV with Sweep; 2-point CSLs I believe the FAQ calls them). After all this, it will probably cost as much to do a "free" sweep as it would to buy another point or two of Speed anyway (and a Sweep is far less useful).

[dugfromthearth]

you have run into three problems with Hero

 

1) sometimes DCV is halved. There is not point value for this and no point value for preventing it. So you have to come up with some hack of adding +1's, but only enough to cancel the halving. An ugly hack.

 

2) there is no 2 point DCV level with a single maneuver, although there is a 2 point OCV level with a single maneuver. Inspite of the fact that OCV and DCV are supposed to cost the same, there is this glaring difference.

 

3) there are no DCV penalty skill levels, while there are OCV penalty skill levels.

 

So if you really want to do this, you can declare that there are penalty DCV skill levels, just like OCV penalty skill levels. And just buy those. If you allow them to buy a penalty skill level for just one maneuver it would be 1 1/2 points for +1 DCV only with sweep only to counter the sweep DCV penalty. Otherwise it would be 2pts for +1 DCV only with sweep, only to counter the sweep DCV penalty.

 

As a note - you can sweep any melee attack in theory. So if he is actually a martial artist he might have multiple sweeps. In which case you would wand the 2pt DCV penalty level so that it could apply to all of your sweeping maneuvers, not just one.

[Dust Raven]

I would say to use the 3 point Penalty Skill Levels.

 

You can Sweep...specifically Sweep, not Rapid Fire, and use the bonuses to counter the penalties to OCV, DCV or both. Only you'd have to use two levels to add +1 to DCV (because it's halved from the maneuver).

 

This is much less of a hack, and better suits the Sword Master motif.

[Demonsong]

Thanks for the input!!

[slaughterj]

Re: DCV only to offset sweep

 

Originally posted by eepjr24

I would go with -1/2. My reasoning:

 

-1/2 = Character will be limited about a third of the time. I just cannot see why a character with this power would NOT sweep in a given phase. So essentially, he would always have the bonus, unless he was out of HTH combat. Give that swordfighting is his schtick, I doubt that he will need DCV and be out of HTH combat more than 1/3 of the time. If the character had methods to ensure that he could get into HTH combat VERY quickly (teleport spell, 10" running, 5" leaping, etc) I might even go down to a -1/4.

 

The only way I would go with the -1 is if the character was well below campaign max for CSL's and/or OCV-DCV and wanted to count these as his CSL's, making this his "trick". I will waive alot to give one unique thing to a character if they are willing to make other sacrifices to make up for it.

 

- Ernie

 

I'd go with the -1 for the reasons others have stated. Regarding the above, if it is only with sweep, it won't be when he's out of combat, stunned, (the first two might not apply anyway?), merely moving, using ranged attacks, entangled, etc., plus he's committed to attack penalties. I'd consider making it have to include the -0 lim "only to cancel out DCV penalties for sweep" as well though, so nobody tried to get tricky

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

So if you really want to do this, you can declare that there are penalty DCV skill levels, just like OCV penalty skill levels. And just buy those. If you allow them to buy a penalty skill level for just one maneuver it would be 1 1/2 points for +1 DCV only with sweep only to counter the sweep DCV penalty. Otherwise it would be 2pts for +1 DCV only with sweep, only to counter the sweep DCV penalty.

 

As a note - you can sweep any melee attack in theory. So if he is actually a martial artist he might have multiple sweeps. In which case you would wand the 2pt DCV penalty level so that it could apply to all of your sweeping maneuvers, not just one.

Except that Penalty Skill Levels can not be used to cancel the OCV penalties that you take from performing a maneuver. That's because the maneuver modifiers aren't "penalties," persay. By the way, "Sweep" is a maneuver itself, even though you are really using it to combine other "maneuvers." That means you can take 2-point CSLs and apply them to Sweep (none of your CSLs that don't apply to a Sweep should technically apply to the attacks you make using the Sweep). See the FAQs if you want to find the source of this information.

 

As House Rules, I myself modify this as follows:

• 2-point CSLs may be taken for Sweeping a particular maneuver/weapon or performing a Sweep in a particular circumstance (e.g. "Sweeping with my broadsword," or, "A Sweep whose attacks target all seperate opponents").
• 3-point CSLs may be taken for all Sweeps. This is considered to be the Tight Group, so they don't apply to any other maneuvers.
• CSLs may be applied to each attack if they would normally apply to the weapon or maneuver which is part of the Sweep, but can apply to only one of the attacks in the Sweep each. This means that if you are doing a Sweep with 3 attacks and wish to increase your DCV by 2 (before halving), you must actually use 3*2=6 CSLs (and this really results in a +1 DCV after it is halved), unless the CSLs can apply to the Sweep maneuver itself (see below).
• Any CSLs which apply to Sweep itself (as opposed to attacks within the Sweep) act like Penalty Skill Levels in the sense that they can never result in a bonus to attack rolls (so, if you have 6 CSLs with Sweep, but only make 2 attacks, you still get -0 on those attacks, not +2) and likewise for DCV (they may not bring your DCV above normal, but rather counteract the halving). They may not be used to increase damage (this is not a Limitation), as the Sweep itself doesn't do damage (rather, the attacks within it do).

I treat Rapid Fire similarly, but it is a seperate (set of) maneuvers from Sweep itself; 5-point CSLs could apply to either, but 3-point CSLs can not.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by prestidigitator

Except that Penalty Skill Levels can not be used to cancel the OCV penalties that you take from performing a maneuver. That's because the maneuver modifiers aren't "penalties," persay.

 

Sure you can...and if a reduction in Combat Value isn't a penalty....I'd hate to see what is.

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by Dust Raven

Sure you can...and if a reduction in Combat Value isn't a penalty....I'd hate to see what is.

From the Skills FAQ:

Q: Could a character buy Penalty Skill Levels to counteract the standard OCV penalty imposed by a Combat Maneuver, such as the -3 OCV for a Grab By?

 

A: No. If a character wants to buy PSLs with the attack, he has to define some form of negative OCV modifier they counteract — such as the Range Modifier or Hit Location modifiers. He cannot apply them to, for example, the -3 OCV with Grab By, the -v/5 penalty for Move Through, or the -2 per subsequent attack for Rapid Fire/Sweep. If he wants to counteract the OCV penalty associated with a Combat Maneuver, buy 2-point Combat Skill Levels.

[Gary]

To get the right effect, you need 5 pt DCV levels. If you try and buy cheaper DCV levels, those levels won't apply to range attacks if you're sweeping a melee attack.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by prestidigitator

From the Skills FAQ:

 

Well damn....that sucks!