Advantage i almost never use: IPE

[Dr Divago]

Hi all

reading some posts in Champions Section i read and i figured out i (almost) never use IPE limitation, but sometimes my build will have some sort of invisibility.

 

I'm pointing mainly to flight, tk and some similar power END consuming with visible effects (but not sfx)

for instances

- telekynesis is not invisible; btw i stated (for my tk player) that's not fully invisible: he need to point out the object, then swing the arm, and a loud "swoosh" are heard.

there are no "purple tendrils" nor "glowing aura around objects" but everyone could see the object floating in the air while he's pointing it, and the noise make impossible to conceal entirely

(btw he got TK in an ultra slot with a TK with IPE, so he can use tk totally invisible but at lower STR )

 

- same time, flight does not have to be IPE, beceause you can not see flame wings, fly boots or like, but you always see the char flying, maybe pointing the sky and jumping (or awkward flying like Greatest American Hero... )

 

my arguing is: if i got no advantage from an advantage, there is no point cost. So those two powers are "invisible power effect" but everyone looking at them can easily perceive the effect, and the source.

Is my arguing correct? or i need to add IPE to those powers?

 

ty for answers

[dmjalund]

Re: Advantage i almost never use: IPE

 

IMHO is that IPE for flight, allows you to be stealthy - so that unless people already know you're there, you could possibly go past them without being noticed. By this definition Superman has IPE on his flight, but Human Torch doesn't

[tabain]

Re: Advantage i almost never use: IPE

 

IPE on movement would be such things as flying without making a sound, tunneling without making a hole, running without leaving tracks, swimming without making a wake etc.

 

For other powers, it could be used such as making defenses that are "hidden"; looking like you take a beating while really being unaffected. For TK, it could be used to hide the fact that he's using the power from others that have enhanced senses for example.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Advantage i almost never use: IPE

 

I used to have this problem all the time; the power isn't really invisible, but it isn't blatantly obvious either. This is one of the nice improvements of 6e over 5e, the introduction of "Inobvious" as opposed to "Imperceivable". Now for a +¼ advantage I can mask a power to a sense group without having to make it fully invisible. In a lot of cases I still wouldn't bother, partly because it just clutters up the power description. But my other rationale is that a regular handgun is never purchased with "Inobvious" to sight, but I can't tell you how many movies I've seen where everyone takes cover until they can figure out where the shots are coming from. Sure you can see the muzzle flash if you are looking the right direction, but no one can track a bullet the way you could with an arrow or flame thrower, or any number of other attacks.

 

I have had mentalists with TK buy IPE just so they could pull sleight of hand manuvers while in secret ID without giving themselves away (which can be pretty handy). But mostly I wouldn't sweat it unless you are building something specifically stealthy, like a plastic pistol invisible to metal detectors or something.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Advantage i almost never use: IPE

 

Invisible Power Effects is essential for Ninja type characters. Also, if you want to be able to attack your opponent but they have no idea where the attack is coming from IPE works for that (along with Indirect). Attempting to block or missile deflect an invisible attack is not easy (1/2 OCV at least)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Advantage i almost never use: IPE

 

I don't worry about it unless the power is really supposed to be difficult to detect in some extraordinary way without the use of skills such as Stealth, Concealment, or Shadowing. Even with use of those skills direct attacks are going to be obvious in SOME way (such as the audible crack of that gun), so IPE and/or Indirect may have to be applied unless you want to give yourself away.

[Mr Reasonable]

Re: Advantage i almost never use: IPE

 

IPE is a bit useless for a lot of purposes. It would be nice if we had an alternative: an advantage that means that it is harder to interpret the information that using a power gives. Example - a power that you can see if you are looking for, or if you have good senses or some sort of deduction roll.

 

So, a gun with a silencer isn't an 'invisible' power, and can be detected with normal senses. It isn't easy though. TK that doesn't have purple tendrils but which you can still, by observation and deduction, work out the source of.

 

6e's use of 'obvious/inobvious' addresses this to an extent, but it doesn't necessarily Work well.for.modelling all the concepts we come up with. It requires a more fundamental breakdown of what we want to model.

 

You may take the view that you can fluff around it, get something close enough and call it good. That's quitter talk though. Hardcore Hero needs definition. Grrrr.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Advantage i almost never use: IPE

 

Hmm. I don't know. To me it's a language, full of useful ambiguity that you have to consider with an open mind. That's far more flexible and useful than a set of rigid rules and definitions in my opinion. A silencer could easily fall under the province of Inobvious. In fact, silencers are a heck of a lot louder than the stupid little "pew" depicted in movies and television, so it might even be more appropriate to make a silencer the buy-off of a Noisy Limitation that guns without them have. What you don't get with a silencer is the big ol' echoing CRACK/POW you normally would with a firearm.

[Checkmate]

Re: Advantage i almost never use: IPE

 

In fact' date=' silencers are a heck of a lot louder than the stupid little "pew" depicted in movies and television, so it might even be more appropriate to make a silencer the buy-off of a [i']Noisy[/i] Limitation that guns without them have. What you don't get with a silencer is the big ol' echoing CRACK/POW you normally would with a firearm.

Not entirely true. Most silencers all you will hear is the little pew you see in the movies... For 1 maybe 2 shots. There are better ones, for example there's an automatic assault rifle that the click-clack of the bolt is louder than than the actual round going off.

 

Back on topic, in 5th ed any power that uses END is perceivable by three senses. Typically sight, hearing, touch (or feel). If you want it to by-pass one or more of those senses you need IPE.

[Mr Reasonable]

Re: Advantage i almost never use: IPE

 

Dr Divago - to answer your question - if it is always obvious that a power is being used (and, broadly, what that power is) and where the power is coming from then you do not need IPE, no matter what SFX you have. However, that is not to say that a particular description will always make sense. TK works through walls and windows, and I can see a lot of situations where you could use the TK you describe and no one would know that you were the source or where you were i.e. you are standing the other side of a window, or even out of sight behind a a packing crate. That sounds like some level of IPE to me, but it depends to an extent on how the power is used in practice.

[Utech]

Re: Advantage i almost never use: IPE

 

I think whether or not IPE is right for you will depend greatly on the sort of game you're running. Many swords and sorcery campaigns will have most magic be quite obvious to all observers and only advanced sorcerers able to cast magic with IPE. Purple tendrils for TK might be just what the doctor ordered.

[Mr Reasonable]

Re: Advantage i almost never use: IPE

 

I think whether or not IPE is right for you will depend greatly on the sort of game you're running. Many swords and sorcery campaigns will have most magic be quite obvious to all observers and only advanced sorcerers able to cast magic with IPE. Purple tendrils for TK might be just what the doctor ordered.

 

I'm really not sure: purple is so 4th edition. You could update the look with black tendrils (or perhaps grey/rust) for a 5ed look or something primary or shiny metallic for 6e.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Advantage i almost never use: IPE

 

Since it is hard to block a power with IPE, I can see why it is purchased as an advantage rather than an adder, even though you have the prescedent of the stand alone Invisibility power.

 

But if you want more granularity, you could link Images, -X PER to target sense(s), No Range, Only to conceal power effects (-1½). Now you can make the power as difficult to perceive as you want (6 points for a -3 PER to sight which isn't bad), although if you want it to be completely undetectable you should probably go with IPE.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Advantage i almost never use: IPE

 

Since it is hard to block a power with IPE, I can see why it is purchased as an advantage rather than an adder, even though you have the prescedent of the stand alone Invisibility power.

 

But if you want more granularity, you could link Images, -X PER to target sense(s), No Range, Only to conceal power effects (-1½). Now you can make the power as difficult to perceive as you want (6 points for a -3 PER to sight which isn't bad), although if you want it to be completely undetectable you should probably go with IPE.

 

Hmm. Read this and it made me think that if what you were after was a power that was hard to block because it was hard to detect AND you wanted granularity, extra OCV levels (only v Block) might work.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Advantage i almost never use: IPE

 

Hmm. Read this and it made me think that if what you were after was a power that was hard to block because it was hard to detect AND you wanted granularity' date=' extra OCV levels (only v Block) might work.[/quote']

Hmm. Yeah. Maybe even Only vs. Block and Dodge, since it's hard to know which way to dodge to get out of the way of something you can't see. That's like some of the weapon rebuilds I am doing: (EDIT: weapons with) chains will be extra OCV vs. Block and shield bonuses; big swords will probably have extra OCV vs. Dodge.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Advantage i almost never use: IPE

 

Hmm. Read this and it made me think that if what you were after was a power that was hard to block because it was hard to detect AND you wanted granularity' date=' extra OCV levels (only v Block) might work.[/quote']

 

Not really necessary. I once asked Steve what the actual mechanical effects of attempting to block or missile deflect a power with IPE and he stated that he had no hard rule, but that I should look at the rules for fighting an invisible opponent and go from there. Thats pretty much the way I've been doing it since the 4th edition days (if a power is invisible to a victims Targeting sense, they would be at 1/2 OCV to block HtH attacks and 0 OCV to block Ranged attacks. On a successful Perception roll with a non-targeting sense [provided the attack isn't invisible to that!] they can missile defelect at 1/2 OCV) I just wanted to see how Steve handled it. Apparently it wasn't something that came up very often in his games. (just a supposition of mine, I figure if it came up more than 1 or twice, he would have a hard and fast rule in place already)

I definitely think that if its an advantage, it should have some kind of mechanical effect. We've already had this discussion about the effects of Indirect a few years back if you remember that one.

 

Thats not to say that +OCV only vs Block and Dodge wouldn't work. It would work great. But I think the advantage should have an effect built in, anything extra you purchase for it would be gravy.