Enhanced Senses query: when do you need to buy Discriminatory?

[GAZZA]

Situation: I wish to buy a power that allows me to see and distinguish well between magical auras.

 

On 6e1pp214, there is a power called "Mage's Eye" that appears to be perfect, except for one thing: it has bought both Discriminatory and Analyze.

 

Analyze on 6e1pp212 says that you can buy it for senses that are Discriminatory because the Sense Group provides Discriminatory. On pp209 we see that the Sight Group does indeed provide Discriminatory.

 

Now, I'll grant, it does say this isn't "full" Discriminatory, but no sense group provides that for free. So the way I see it, there are three possibilities:

 

1. The phrase under Analyze refers to the possibility that you might have previously bought Discriminatory for the Sight Sense Group, for 10 points. However, Analyze specifically says that you can buy it for Sense Groups that provide Discriminatory "for free", which would seem to negate this option.

 

2. Discriminatory for Mage's Eye is bought because it grants something that Analyze does not. I freely confess this may be the intent, but I am unaware what that might be; the examples for Discriminatory and Analyze suggest that the latter gives you essentially everything the former gives you in much more detail. But possibly that is simply the case of my misunderstanding the examples.

 

3. Mage's Eye is incorrectly costed, and you do not have to buy Discriminatory before buying Analyze for Sight Group detects.

 

It is the third option I'm leaning towards - have I missed something?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Enhanced Senses query: when do you need to buy Discriminatory?

 

6.2.9 confirms that the sight simulated sense group includes 'discriminatory'.

 

I've always been unhappy about sight being defined as 'partially discriminatory'.

 

IMO a basic detect will tell you that there is something of the kind you can detect there, and give very basic information about it (approximate quantity, for example). Discriminatory allows you to tell the difference between two similar items you can detect and analyse gives you a whole bunch of non-obvious information which might, for example, include composition.

 

Magic Eye gives you 'sight group simulation' but it doesn't include a 'proper' version of discriminatory, so you do need to buy that if you want analyse too, which is messy, IMO. I can't see that clearly defined, but I admit I have not looked that hard (or maybe didn't put enough points in 'sight').

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Enhanced Senses query: when do you need to buy Discriminatory?

 

I actually like the "partial descriminatory" on Sight. Think about it - I can look at something and say "that is made of metal" but not "that is made of a titanium / tungsten alloy." Full descriminatory would give that further information, and Analyze would tell you the exact quantity of each metal in the allow, how the alloy was forged, etc.

 

I could even see non-supers gaining those modifiers on sight via a skill - forensics, or metallurgy, for example - within limits of what the skill applies to.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Enhanced Senses query: when do you need to buy Discriminatory?

 

I actually like the "partial descriminatory" on Sight. Think about it - I can look at something and say "that is made of metal" but not "that is made of a titanium / tungsten alloy." Full descriminatory would give that further information, and Analyze would tell you the exact quantity of each metal in the allow, how the alloy was forged, etc.

 

I could even see non-supers gaining those modifiers on sight via a skill - forensics, or metallurgy, for example - within limits of what the skill applies to.

 

I don't think that you can tell if something is made of metal with sight. You can tell if it looks like it is made of metal - colour, sheen etc. That is nothing to do with sight though, that is just the character's general and specific knowledge.

 

It always seemed to me that basic human senses ought to be the baseline for a discriminatory sense - it isn't and I don't think it is - I'm just saying it ought to be, simply because when we talk of 'normal' sight or hearing, we all know what we mean. We have a common basis of reference.

[dmjalund]

Re: Enhanced Senses query: when do you need to buy Discriminatory?

 

what is the point cost for 'Partial Discriminatory' anyway?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Enhanced Senses query: when do you need to buy Discriminatory?

 

Page 209 also says:

 

Characters can make Normal Sight (or the entire Sight Sense Group) fully Discriminatory by paying the usual cost.

 

I'd assume that the Mage's Eye is intended to be fully Discriminatory.

[Ice9]

Re: Enhanced Senses query: when do you need to buy Discriminatory?

 

Yeah, I've never agreed with sight being only "partially" Discriminatory either. I mean, sight tells us the color, position, size, apparent texture, motion, luminosity, shape (down to individual letters on a page) and orientation of objects and projected light. And not just a single object, but everything we're focusing on simultaneously (and to a lesser degree, things in peripheral vision). That's probably more information than most Discriminatory senses would get you. In fact, it may be close to what Analyze would get you.

 

Seriously, try to imagine a "Detect Magnetic Fields" or "Detect Insects" that gives you that much information with Discriminatory, without making Analyze obsolete.

[GAZZA]

Re: Enhanced Senses query: when do you need to buy Discriminatory?

 

Perhaps I phrased the question poorly.

 

Let's try another way. Why would you ever buy Discriminatory for Sight, when you could just buy Analyze for the same cost?

[Checkmate]

Re: Enhanced Senses query: when do you need to buy Discriminatory?

 

You can't buy Analyze without first buying Discriminatory.

[GAZZA]

Re: Enhanced Senses query: when do you need to buy Discriminatory?

 

You can't buy Analyze without first buying Discriminatory.

Analyze, 6e1pp212, says that you can buy Analyze for Senses that are Discriminatory "... because the Sense Group provides Discriminatory for free ...".

[Checkmate]

Re: Enhanced Senses query: when do you need to buy Discriminatory?

 

If Sight is defined a "Partially Discriminatory" than I would rule that you need to buy Discriminatory, to make it fully and not partially, before you could buy Analyze.

 

As far as the other discussion, I am in favor of defining sight as being "Partially Discriminatory".

[Ice9]

Re: Enhanced Senses query: when do you need to buy Discriminatory?

 

As far as the other discussion, I am in favor of defining sight as being "Partially Discriminatory".

In that case, what would you define Discriminatory sight as telling you, beyond what normal sight does? And after that, what would sight with Analyze provide?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Enhanced Senses query: when do you need to buy Discriminatory?

 

To represent a tetrachromat, I once bought full Discriminatory on Normal Sight. I would imagine that Analyze might tell you things like exact wavelengths of light; if you take normal sight as something like a Detect Reflected Visible Light, Analyze might give you some information about the source (its basic location though not enough to target it, maybe its composition, maybe how it's generating the light).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Enhanced Senses query: when do you need to buy Discriminatory?

 

I have no idea what fully discriminatory sight could give you that partially discriminatory sight doesn't whilst still steering clear of being analysing sight.

 

Anyone?

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Enhanced Senses query: when do you need to buy Discriminatory?

 

I have no idea what fully discriminatory sight could give you that partially discriminatory sight doesn't whilst still steering clear of being analysing sight.

 

Anyone?

 

My only thoughts on that end up confusing me as well - it seems to make sense, then I write it out, and realize I'm talking way beyond what a sense can tell you and starting to add in what might be inferred by other knowledge or skills.

 

But I'll try again in a bit - just now leaving work.

[GAZZA]

Re: Enhanced Senses query: when do you need to buy Discriminatory?

 

Yes, so, still in the dark here. I cannot imagine why Analyze would mention that you can buy it for senses that have Discriminatory for free unless it is intended to refer to Sight and so on. But if that's true, then either full Discriminatory gives you something that Analyze doesn't - and I have no idea what that might be, as Analyze is basically Discriminatory On Steroids - or else despite the Magesight example power, you can just go straight to Analyze for a custom detect that you put in an appropriate Sense Group (and save 5 points).

 

I mean, really, I think it should be a middle ground. Say that you still need full Discriminatory to buy Analyze, but that buying Discriminatory for a sense group that already partly provides it costs 3 points instead of 5, or something. Of course that's definitely into house rule territory there because it specifically says that you don't get a cost break like that.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Enhanced Senses query: when do you need to buy Discriminatory?

 

Hmm. What if we did something like make Discriminatory +3 Per, "Only for purposes of distinguishing quality and details." Analyze could be +6 with the same limitation. Or something like that. I mean, if someone made their roll by a margin of 8, you'd probably be giving them a heck of a lot more detail than you would for a simple success, wouldn't you? I've even built spells like this before. I believe I converted the first level AD&D spell "Identify" as a bonus to magical Perception (which could also then be Complimentary to an Spellcraft/Analyze Magic skill). I suppose I could have built it as Discriminatory or Analyze instead, but this way seemed more scalable to me, so I didn't even really consider the other.

 

That might even remove the question of how it operates for different Senses or Sense Groups. We already know what kind of details each Sense (Group) can provide. Now it's a matter of how many and how fine of those details to provide in a given circumstance. It's just a matter of scale, which margin of success can easily correlate to.

[GAZZA]

Re: Enhanced Senses query: when do you need to buy Discriminatory?

 

Well, it's an option. But I don't typically do that, no. Most of the time for a PER roll, I'm interested in a success or failure (possibly with a penalty or bonus to the roll, of course). The only time I usually worry about margin of success is when it is an opposed roll (typically with Stealth). That's not to say your approach isn't probably more correct than mine, but given that margin of success is a pretty random element, it would feel weird to me to get a good roll with a fairly average PER and get told, say, the exact shade of pink that the woman's mascara was, along with her range to the nearest centimetre. Which is a fairly subjective objection, I admit.

[randian]

Re: Enhanced Senses query: when do you need to buy Discriminatory?

 

I have no idea what fully discriminatory sight could give you that partially discriminatory sight doesn't whilst still steering clear of being analysing sight.

I would argue it this way. Normal sight lets you say "X is bigger than Y", but you don't know exact measurements. Fully discriminatory sight gives you exact dimensions. Analyze gets you albedo, absorption, emissivity, etc.

 

I make a similar argument for hearing. Normal hearing lets you distinguish relative pitch. Discriminatory hearing gives absolute pitch and allows you to distinguish a fake Stradivarius from a real one. Analytic hearing makes you a walking spectrum analyzer: distinguish harmonic overtones from the base note, distinguish reflected and direct sounds from the same source, do fancy range and distance measurements based on sound, etc.

[Checkmate]

Re: Enhanced Senses query: when do you need to buy Discriminatory?

 

I would argue it this way. Normal sight lets you say "X is bigger than Y"' date=' but you don't know exact measurements. Fully discriminatory sight gives you exact dimensions. Analyze gets you albedo, absorption, emissivity, etc.[/quote']

 

I think that's a perfect description and much better than the one I couldn't come up with