Vengeance of the dead

[Selganor]

My character Lazarus wants a special power for his mask. (Which would be an OIF)

If someone who has killed someone (or has let someone die he could have saved) gazes into his reflection in the mask (at most 1-2 inch "reach" to clearly see the reflection) he won't just see a reflection of him but the ghosts of his "victims" attacking him in the reflection. Onl y HE sees the ghosts of his victims noone else.

I thougt the dead to be just a special effect (and as nobody else sees them but the target itself I see no need to simulate this with mental powers) and thougth of the whole thing to be a NND (defend by not having killed or let die somebody or being at ease with those victims), which should be common enough to warrant a +1/2 NND but I'm not sure if I should do this as a NND EB or an END-Drain.

 

Any other suggestions?

[Lord Liaden]

Well, strictly by the description of NND in the 5E rulebook, the Defense against the attack is supposed to be something that the character has rather than doesn't have, so "not having killed" wouldn't be a "legal" defense.

 

I actually think that Mental Powers would be the way to go here, since except for characters with Mental Awareness no one else would perceive the Power affecting the target, which was one of your specifications. Given that, I could see going two ways with this attack: You could define it as a Mental Illusion, No Range, No Conscious Control at the -1 level (the Power always works, but the effect is not in the user's control - an example in the rulebook uses this for a Mental Illusion of the target's worst fear, so this should be appropriate). With this approach Lazarus can still define the level of effect of the attack, and keep paying END to maintain it as long as the victim remains close enough.

 

If you simply want the target's dead victims attacking him to be the special effect of the Power, and would prefer an Instant attack with a set effect, I'd recommend Ego Attack, No Range, Only vs. Those Who Have Killed; the size of that last Limitation will depend on how frequently killing occurs in your campaign.

 

Hope that helps.

[Blue]

Extra Dice of PRE (Attack Only) with the special effect and (strangely enough) a "No Range" limitation. Generally PRE attacks are considered to be line of sight, so I'd allow a No Range on it, personally (But then I'm a nice guy!)

 

So all you would have to do is let them move into an adjacent hex and you'd use your PRE attack w/ the special effect to scare the daylights (and possibly other less cleanly things) out of them.

 

If you were looking for some kind of Zero-Action thing, then you're looking at a power with a "Damage Shield". Might be Mind Control, or as you mentioned, EGO Drain, with a special effect.

[dugfromthearth]

I still don't know what you intend the effect to be, just what you want the special effect to be.

 

The power to use depends on the effect you want.

[Dust Raven]

Yes...does this simply frighten the target, harm him, what?

 

If it's damage you're after, I'd go with Lord Liaden's suggestion of a Limited Ego Attack. You might also want to consider Reduced By Range to simulate the requirement of "nearness" but not quite 0 Range.

 

If it only scares people, say to hold them still, you can just buy up PRE with the OIF and Fear Only Lims, possible reduced by range as well.

[Selganor]

DOH! I completely forgot about Presence Attacks... And I really like them...

 

So what are you thinking of this:

Vengence of the Dead

15 PRE Cumulative *4 Max (+1), Damage Shield (+1/4, only versus people who can see their reflection in the front side of the mask), Continous (+1) , Persistent (+1/2)

Active Cost: 56

Always On (-1/2), Focus OIF reflecting Mask (-1/2), Only versus people who have killed somebody or let somebody die they could have saved and are not at peace with those dead/deaths (-2), Only to cause fear (-1) No Conscious Control (-1)

Real Cost: 9

 

Any complaints about that?

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by Selganor

Vengence of the Dead

15 PRE Cumulative *4 Max (+1), Damage Shield (+1/4, only versus people who can see their reflection in the front side of the mask), Continous (+1) , Persistent (+1/2)

Active Cost: 56

Always On (-1/2), Focus OIF reflecting Mask (-1/2), Only versus people who have killed somebody or let somebody die they could have saved and are not at peace with those dead/deaths (-2), Only to cause fear (-1) No Conscious Control (-1)

Real Cost: 9

Interesting use of Cumulative. I'm having a hard time figuring out how that would interact with your normal Pre (when you choose to use it), which is not Cumulative unless you pay for that, too. I guess normal Pre would just add in to each attack, but not be carried over with the total (roll dice seperately). Hmm.

 

I don't know about the Damage Sheild. It means the power will only affect people if they hit you (which might be appropriate, but doesn't really sound like it). You might instead give it an Area of Effect: Cone and No Range along with, perhaps, "Only When Sensed Through Normal Sight (-1/4)." The "Only versus people who have killed..." might not quite be worth a -2. Do you think it is really that often that you will come across opponents who do not meet this criteria? Most adventurers, villains, etc., would probably be subject, IMHO. You could even forget a lot of the Advantages, and just use your free Presence Attack actions to "angle your reflective mask" toward opponents.

[Blue]

Yes, I've never seen cumulative on a PRE attack before. If the GM allowed it, it would probably have to be bought on the base PRE as well.

 

You could also do a Damage Shield PRE DRAIN to coincide with a PRE attack. They get in close, become unsettled by what they see, and suddenly are afraid of their own shadow

[dugfromthearth]

[15 PRE Cumulative *4 Max (+1), Damage Shield (+1/4, only versus people who can see their reflection in the front side of the mask), Continous (+1) , Persistent (+1/2)

Active Cost: 56

Always On (-1/2), Focus OIF reflecting Mask (-1/2), Only versus people who have killed somebody or let somebody die they could have saved and are not at peace with those dead/deaths (-2), Only to cause fear (-1) No Conscious Control (-1)]

 

This seems strangely complicated for a simple effect. And several of the limits are off-base imho.

 

Just buy it as a bonus to presence - drop the damage shield, continuous, and persistent.

 

then drop always on, and no concious control (which can't apply in any case to an always on damage shield)

 

the only vs peope who have killed somebody - at most is worth a -1 lim in some pacifistic game. In most games it should be -1/2, villains kill people. In any sort of fantasy setting or game where killing is common it would be -1/4.

 

only to cause fear is -1/2 I thought, since it is the most common use of pre attacks (I could be wrong though)

 

My take on it:

+30 Pre [30], Focus OIF reflecting Mask (-1/2), Only versus people who have killed somebody or let somebody die they could have saved and are not at peace with those dead/deaths (-1/2), Only to cause fear (-1/2)

Active Points: 30, Real Cost: 12

 

the +6d6 adds to the character's normal presence attacks. It is usually good for +21 to the result, which bumps up the results by two levels, making for a very powerful attack.

 

You could buy it with the always on (-1/2) limitation. In which case anyone who met the criteria would suffer a 6d6 PRE attack on every one of the phases of the character with the mask. Real Cost would be 10pts.

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

You could buy it with the always on (-1/2) limitation. In which case anyone who met the criteria would suffer a 6d6 PRE attack on every one of the phases of the character with the mask. Real Cost would be 10pts.

I believe Always On would also require Persistent or Uncontrolled. Presence attacks are arguably continuous as is (someone you freak out is going to still be affected by the experience the next Phase).

[dugfromthearth]

okay, I can go with persistent.

 

the mask has to work even when he is unconcious, so it would require persistent.

[Selganor]

My take on the mask was that the longer someone gazes into it the deeper the fear would strike. Hence the Cumulative.

 

As I was wondering how to apply the advantages on my normal presence I constructed the mask not as +15 PRE but as a separate 15 PRE. And to comment... so far Lazarus would be affected by the mask, too if he ever gazes into the front.

 

It would really take an intelligent and pseudosentient item to copy the effect, but I thought that the advantages and limitations could cover that.

 

I based the pricings of the limited and conditional effect on the tables at page 194f. PRE-Attack only to cause fear should account for losing half of it's effectiveness and as this power only affects "killers" it is contitional (limited over half time, as not one of every two people involved would be killers but less)

 

The No Conscious Control -1 is straight out of the description where I might activate or deactivate the power (and not even that due to Always on) but the power chooses it's own specific effect.

 

I agree that the Damage Shield might have to be defined "better", but as the alternative (add an area effect then put limitations on it to reduce it to people just before 1-2 Inch distance at most) would be a pain to calculate I thought to define it this way...

[dugfromthearth]

but the effect is defined - it causes fear. So there can be no concious control.

 

the question isn't whether killers applies to half the people in the world, but half the people you want to effect.

 

like buying an attack "only works on criminals" may not work on 75% of the population, but those aren't the people you want it to work against.

 

I can't comment on the cumulative, not sure how that would work in practice.

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by Selganor

My take on the mask was that the longer someone gazes into it the deeper the fear would strike. Hence the Cumulative.

 

As I was wondering how to apply the advantages on my normal presence I constructed the mask not as +15 PRE but as a separate 15 PRE. And to comment... so far Lazarus would be affected by the mask, too if he ever gazes into the front.

I think the Cumulative works. It is an imaginative approach, too. Go with it. If you really want the character not to be affected, take Personal Immunity, or make sure he is not a killer.

 

It would really take an intelligent and pseudosentient item to copy the effect, but I thought that the advantages and limitations could cover that.

...

The No Conscious Control -1 is straight out of the description where I might activate or deactivate the power (and not even that due to Always on) but the power chooses it's own specific effect.

Special Effects and Special Effects. The specific effect is the same every time (at least in term of mechanics): the subject is stricken with fear. That each person sees different faces, or whatever, is just Special Effect, and does not merit either an Advantage or a Limitation.

 

I agree that the Damage Shield might have to be defined "better", but as the alternative (add an area effect then put limitations on it to reduce it to people just before 1-2 Inch distance at most) would be a pain to calculate I thought to define it this way...

Why not just make it Area of Effect: Cone and let it extend as far as the Active Points make it? Or give it Area of Effect: Single Hex, or give it Area of Effect: Cone and Reduced by Range. I don't see that these are very difficult or compicated options.

[Selganor]

Lazarus isn't a killer but he has watched MANY people die without doing anything to help them...

 

He WILL use this mask to try to get the people to pardon him.

 

Actually the effect is a bit more complex than a simple area effect.

Only people looking into the front of the mask will be affected, only people seeing their reflections (so vampires are safe ) and people who can't make out the reflection (because it's too dark, foggy, far, ...) won't be affected, too...

All these factors would be pretty hard to discern, wouldn't they?

[dugfromthearth]

3d6 pre [15], cumulative X4 max [+1], aoe cone [+1], Continuous (+1) , Persistent (+1/2)

Always On (-1/2), Focus OIF reflecting Mask (-1/2), Only versus people who have killed somebody or let somebody die they could have saved and are not at peace with those dead/deaths (-1/2), Only to cause fear (-1)

 

AP: 67.5 RC: 19 Cone: 52.5pts (10" cone?)

 

 

It is expensive, because PRE normally gets aoe for free. If the power affected the wearer, increasing their presence it would be cheaper, but the cumulative wouldn't make any sense.

 

So if you want cumulative this seems to be the way to go.

 

Now looked at in terms of effectiveness, a 12d6 pre attack is a 60pt power. So it would/could be very powerful. The point cost is too low if anything for the potential power.

 

can you use cumulative with PRE attacks? I have the feeling you can only use cumulative if there is a defense against the power, and there isn't against PRE attacks. But I could be wrong about that.

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

3d6 pre [15], cumulative X4 max [+1], aoe cone [+1], Continuous (+1) , Persistent (+1/2)

Always On (-1/2), Focus OIF reflecting Mask (-1/2), Only versus people who have killed somebody or let somebody die they could have saved and are not at peace with those dead/deaths (-1/2), Only to cause fear (-1)

 

AP: 67.5 RC: 19 Cone: 52.5pts (10" cone?)

Looks pretty good to me, except I'm not sure it would require Continuous. As I already stated, I think Pre attacks are already continuous in a sense. I also don't really think it should take Always On if it is bought through a focus. You can always turn the power off just by removing the mask.

 

can you use cumulative with PRE attacks? I have the feeling you can only use cumulative if there is a defense against the power, and there isn't against PRE attacks. But I could be wrong about that.

I don't think there is really a defense, but in a sense the target's max(Pre, Ego) is, because that is what needs to be overcome. I believe there are some related questions in the FAQs and/or Rules Questions Board. You might need GM approval. I would grant it; it is a good idea, makes sense, and not too unbalancing as bought, IMHO.

 

Originally posted by Selganor

Actually the effect is a bit more complex than a simple area effect.

Only people looking into the front of the mask will be affected, only people seeing their reflections (so vampires are safe ) and people who can't make out the reflection (because it's too dark, foggy, far, ...) won't be affected, too...

All these factors would be pretty hard to discern, wouldn't they?

One more Limitation, I think. Something like, "Target must view reflection in mask," which is probably a -1/2. I wouldn't say any more of a Limitation (maybe even only a -1/4; check with the GM), because it is quite likely that any opponent is going to see his/her reflection in it at some point. This Limitation might be your avenue to the limited range, too. As a GM, I would probably rule that targets who are not right next to you should make Per rolls (adjusted for range--and that thay can't automatically fail if they are looking at the character) to notice the reflections.