The essence of the system

[fredrik_nilsson]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

another thing about HERO that is or was unique and an essence of the system is presence attacks. You didn't just say something was frightening, it actually had an effect.

 

I've never played HERO, just read the rules, so can you please describe what makes Presence Attacks different from similar things in other games.

[trechriron]

Nothing.

 

The biggest difference is the separation of mechanics from specific or descriptive effects. In most games a fear spell, an intimidation roll, a shocking moment of discovery, and even mental attacks and abilities could all have varying rules systems (I would almost argue that many of those systems are simply sub-systems having little consistency with the original in my experience).

 

When you know what a presence attack does, it is simply a matter of flavor as to the origin of the effect. Fear spell? OK. Intimidation? Yep. "Seeing Aunt Matilda accidentally in the shower" scene. No problem. Different effects, same roll. Same idea.

 

You are essentially accomplishing the same thing as other systems accomplish with varying sub-systems. With Hero I have faster familiarity. The concept of generating an effect roll is true across many powers. Reducing a characteristic for effect or obtaining a particular number of effect are also common mechanics in Hero. I simply need to remember what happens when Presence is reduced by an attack or exceeded by an effect roll. Other games still have fear effects, intimidation rolls, insanity, and even psionic mental effects. I think Hero is simply more consistent across these effects and maintains that consistency across the entire system.

 

One game to rule them all! *Ahem* I mean, uh yeah this is cool.

[prestidigitator]

Re: To be honest

 

Originally posted by fredrik_nilsson

When I said that the others never agreed on playing HERO I wasn't completly honest. We did one try, but that try never moved beyond character creation.

 

One of the reason were the fact that when you come from the strict d20 character creation system and move on to the flexible HERO system all of possiblities became quite confusing for some of the players (and in the beginning even for me).

 

Your idea about packages might be one way to handle that confusion.

Definitely! I have had the same experience with my players. You can't just turn them lose with the system and say, "Make a character." If you really want to introduce D&D (or any d20) players to Hero, you have to do a lot of up-front work as the GM. That means creating a bunch of packages so the players can just whip a character together, and probably coming up with a talent/magic/power/whatever system that sits on top of the Hero rules, so the players don't even have to look at the Power/Advantage/Limitation rules until they are ready.

 

The really unfortunate part is that the complexity of the system comes into play during character creation: the very first part. That tends to cause players to get through the "worst" of it, and not want to do any more, when the truth is that game play really isn't any more complex than in most other systems. You might even consider creating a whole slew of pregenerated characters, maybe after asking each player "what kind" of character they would like to play (then help the players tailor the characters to their own liking).

 

As long as you are willing to do the work, though, creating the right packages and guidelines should make character creation as easy as in any other system (if not easier: don't worry about ability points or skill points or feats or class features; each thing you see just has a straight cost).

[zornwil]

In MY day we didn't have all these dad-gum "packages" and all this "I can't do math, make my character"! God-dum it, we just had a flimsy points system rulebook and we stopped playing D&D or AD&D all on our ownsome! Kids today!

 

 

But seriuosly - it does amaze me that now we DO talk about this whereas 20 years ago people just fell into it or were willing to learn (or just stayed wtih AD&D). In one sense, to me, it speaks to a lack of experimentation among players that I think existed (after all, it was ALL new to us then, and we hadn't settled into the patterns we're now in, whether d20 or HERO). In another sense, it reflects our increasingly savvy consumerism, looking for opportunities to bolster the company we support.

[fredrik_nilsson]

This might be it then?

 

The solution to this problem seem to be the quite easy to solve (I haven't talked to the players about it yet), build a huge amount of packages.

 

Have anyone seen the "BESM Fantasy Bestiary". This system needs something similar. I know that there are packages in all the genre books, but they aren't easy to find in Northern Europe.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Originally posted by zornwil

In MY day we didn't have all these dad-gum "packages" and all this "I can't do math, make my character"! God-dum it, we just had a flimsy points system rulebook and we stopped playing D&D or AD&D all on our ownsome! Kids today!

 

Observe that I write this in a grumpy style:

 

I'm no kid, I've been playing for almost 20 years.

 

But seriuosly - it does amaze me that now we DO talk about this whereas 20 years ago people just fell into it or were willing to learn (or just stayed wtih AD&D). In one sense, to me, it speaks to a lack of experimentation among players that I think existed (after all, it was ALL new to us then, and we hadn't settled into the patterns we're now in, whether d20 or HERO). In another sense, it reflects our increasingly savvy consumerism, looking for opportunities to bolster the company we support.

 

I fully agree. The same thing has happend over here.

[Tom Carman]

Re: This might be it then?

 

Originally posted by fredrik_nilsson

The solution to this problem seem to be the quite easy to solve (I haven't talked to the players about it yet), build a huge amount of packages.

 

Have anyone seen the "BESM Fantasy Bestiary". This system needs something similar. I know that there are packages in all the genre books, but they aren't easy to find in Northern Europe.

If you are playing a superhero game, you could use the random character generator in the Champions book. Just dispense with the dice rolling and select the packages you want. It has a nice selection for building a variety of (somewhat cliche) character types.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: This might be it then?

 

Originally posted by fredrik_nilsson

The solution to this problem seem to be the quite easy to solve (I haven't talked to the players about it yet), build a huge amount of packages.

 

Thats been the main thrust of the ongoing work Ive been posting as I go. So far, making characters has been a snap, for both the players and myself, and the interesting thing is that some of the players are familiar enough with the metasystem Ive put together to start referring to characters in terms of the package names. Ergo, "I had an idea for Savage-Rapscallion character" or "I was thinking a modified Medium Foot-Backbiter might be nasty".

 

All of my players were able to make their characters in a matter of minutes, with the exception being a Lycanthropic character that took about 30 minutes tops, just wrangling with the points -- and that was technically 3 characters as it is a Multiform based Lycanthropy.

 

It's also usually very easy to make new packages on the fly, as it is a very extensible system.

 

So far we've all been very happy with it. I just need to get more content typed up in the way of spells, items, creatures, and what not. Some of it is bringing forward bits from my old site and retranslating it into the new paradigm Im going with, and a lot of it can occur during play as the campaign goes on -- as I need something Ill convert it/make it.

[Warp9]

Re: To be honest

 

Originally posted by fredrik_nilsson

When I said that the others never agreed on playing HERO I wasn't completly honest. We did one try, but that try never moved beyond character creation.

 

One of the reason were the fact that when you come from the strict d20 character creation system and move on to the flexible HERO system all of possiblities became quite confusing for some of the players (and in the beginning even for me).

 

When I start people out with Hero, I try to make character creation easier for them.

 

First I ask the new players about exactly what type of characters they would like to have. Then I offer to build the characters for them.

[prestidigitator]

Re: This might be it then?

 

Originally posted by fredrik_nilsson

Have anyone seen the "BESM Fantasy Bestiary". This system needs something similar. I know that there are packages in all the genre books, but they aren't easy to find in Northern Europe.

Actually I find a lot of D&D material useful in running my D&D-style Fantasy Hero games (as much of it as you like and want to include). Particularly with D&D 3rd edition, things are incredibly easy to convert to Hero (skills, attribute modifiers for race packages, the more consistent spell-effect mechanics, etc.). I have started using the D&D PH for common equipment, the DMG for magical items, the MM for monsters and racial pacakges, etc. With a little practice, it can be done on the fly. For example:

• The party encounters 2 trolls
• Quickly figure OCV/DCV, Str dice, claw damage, etc. from listed stats and comparable weapons. (30 sec)
• Figure Body, Stun, and rough translation of special attacks/powers (amout of Regeneration) from Hit Dice, common sense, and CR guestimate. (30 sec)
• As need arises (rarely) determine actual point costs and Advantages/Limitations for powers (like the trolls' regeneration). (Can take a while)

This really works when you stop worrying about the total point cost for things other than PCs.

 

Once you get comfortable with mechanics comparisons/translations, you can suddenly start directly using any D&D source material you wish....