The essence of the system

[fredrik_nilsson]

The Hero System is a toolbox, and there are some guidelines of how to change basically anything in system, like splitting Characteristics into sub-Characteristics, changing the cost of powers and even removing or adding parts of the system.

 

If you change around too much in the system it cease to have the HERO feeling, so I need some help here. What is your idea of what the essence of the system is?

 

In a previous thread I was told that rolling 3d6 instead of d20 was part of it, due to statistics, but what more parts are "sacred"?

 

Please help me out here...

[BobGreenwade]

I don't think there is any part of the system that can be considered "sacred" in that sense. All manner of things have been changed for particular campaigns, with varying degrees of success, while keeping the essence of the game.

 

I've seen proposals to double the costs of STR and/or COM; roll 2d6 or 5d4 instead of 3d6 -- or even take away dice almost completely (see my article in Digital Hero #1); pull together every Power in the book to just four or five, with Advantages and Limitations to re-form what's there; turn Power Defense into a Characteristic, alongside Mental Defense; change the Skill and Attack Rolls so higher numbers are better (an idea that became canon for the child-system Fuzion), and many other bizarre and creative ideas. A GM could do all of the above and it would still, at its essence, be HERO System.

 

Probably where it "ceases to be HERO" is not in the nature of the change, but the amount. If you change too much, it becomes a home-brew or hybrid system. I really don't know what point you'd have to reach to get there -- there probably isn't a fixed number or anything like that -- but there's nothing really wrong with that, either.

 

(BTW, where you mention "rolling 3d6 instead of d20," I think you got that backwards.)

[Monolith]

I have to agree with Bob here. There is nothing that is really "core" HERO System. Some people might say that buying powers and skills is "core" but I have even played campaigns without the math of buying things too. It really comes down to the amount of change you decide to make in the system. You can change 3d6 to 1d20 and it will still be HERO, but when you decide to also remove 5 characteristics, and change how some of the powers work, and decide to create characters with random rolls, then the game becomes something else entirely. But I do not think there is any one specific point that changed the system, at least not for me.

[dugfromthearth]

To me the essence of the hero system is:

 

speed system (not the exact system, but allowing characters to have different numbers of actions)

 

stun, allowing characters to be knocked unconcious without really being hurt

 

special effects, being able to define powers as being what you want them to be

 

adders/lims, being able to tailor powers to function just as you want them to

[Lord Liaden]

With this question I've been trying to think of what constitutes the essentials of the HERO System, beyond its flexibility. The very modularity of the system means that you can mix and match many of the rules to tailor them to your preferences. There really isn't a lot that couldn't easily be modified, and as you point out, the rulebook gives guidelines for some of those options.

 

I'd say the essentials of the system start with it being point-based, so that you can tailor your character by distributing the points as you wish, and compare the abilities of different characters based at least in part on their point totals. This is in contrast to class- and level-based systems where these decisions are made for you. Package deals bring HERO a little closer to that approach, and you can of course design "classes" for your players, with "levels" of specific ability improvements based on a set number of Experience Points; but the latter option is an artificial imposition on the system that doesn't really follow its spirit.

 

HERO System doesn't do "absolutes" well: an attack that never misses, or total invulnerability to damage. 5E offers various somewhat awkward ways to approximate them, such as Invulnerability based on Desolid, but absolutes are contrary to the spirit behind HERO, as several of its creators have remarked at times.

 

Mechanically, there are a few hallmarks to the system: die rolling to randomly decide a result; the opposibility of certain abilities possessed by characters to the chance of success in their actions (Attacks vs. Defenses, OCV vs. DCV, Skill vs. Skill or Characteristic Rolls); 5 Char. Pts. = 1d6 of effect/ one Damage Class being the standard for measuring the effectiveness of Powers and Strength; all Attacks having an appropriate Defense, and that Defense costing proportionately less in Character Points.

 

I'm sure other people will have more points to add, or find exceptions to the ones I thought of.

[Steve Long]

you can of course design "classes" for your players, with "levels" of specific ability improvements based on a set number of Experience Points; but the latter option is an artificial imposition on the system that doesn't really follow its spirit.

 

I agree. But I will admit that working on Sidekick made me think about whipping up a little FH mini-campaign where all character advancement would involve the purchase of pre-defined 3- and 5-point "advancement packages." It would be an interesting design experiment to create a setting/campaign that uses the flexibility of the HERO System rules -- but "in advance," to create a finite number of things the players pick from when they spend XP. That might make it easier for some players to use/learn the rules.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Wow

 

That was amazing. So many answers in such short time. Thanks!

 

As you point out Bob I did get the d20/3d6 mixed-up oops.

 

The reason I mixed them up was because I was thinking on the d20 system, or more specific the game "Mutants and Masterminds" (MnM). I know that some players really do like it, and I don't want to start a system war, but here goes anyway...

 

I wrote in another thread about the problems I had with persuading my group to shift from d20 to HERO. After some talking we decided to do a compromise, with tried MnM. The game does almost the same things that the HERO SYSTEM, so I guess I should be happy, but I'm not. For me the system seem to be just a light as the book, some important things are missing.

 

It can't be the d20/3d6 thing, since I'm not that keen (as a DM) to let the dice decide the outcome of important events.

 

I know at least two things that initially struck me as poorly implemented (compared to HERO):

 

Disadvantages

In MnM you either have it, or you don't. This is easily fixed. Thow it away and borrow HERO's disadvantage system directly.

 

Power Modifiers

In MnM you buy ranks of a power (reminds of DC) and each rank costs a certain amount of power points (character points in HERO). The cost is between 1 - 8 PP per rank. For each extra (advantage) I take the cost per rank is raised by one, and for each flaw (limitation) I take the cost is lowered by one. There is also a minium cost of one PP per rank. It's not that hard to see how flawed this system is. It's hard to build a power exactly as you want, but easy to get an approximation of it.

 

For those that has played both systems what more needs to be changed to bring in the essence of the HERO system without actually playing it?

 

d20 HERO

This is supposed be a teaser of HERO system, so that the group might become intrested in trying HERO 5ed for real. The goal is therefore to change those things that really need to be fixed, but to keep those things that aren't worth the time to play around with.

 

Worth Keeping

Attribute system (incl. saves)

Skill system

Combat system

 

Changing these three would be the same as changing system entirely. There might be a few fixes in cost, but nothing major.

 

Powers

MnM has more or less the same set of powers that HERO has, so I can just change the name of them. There will be some fixes of exactly how the powers behave.

 

Power Modifiers

The HERO system version so much better so I guess I will use it.

 

Power Level

In MnM a normal character is supposed be around 10th level. He get 15 PP per level, so the total is 150 (almost half of HERO). He can buy up to 10 ranks.

 

Converting this over to the d20 HERO there could be 25 CP per level, starting with -25 CP at the 1st level. The maximum DC could be the same as the level. That would give a 10th level character 200 CP to start with (with extra coming from disadvantages). There could also be a recommended active points limit of levlel multiplied by five (50 in the example).

 

 

What do you think?

[fredrik_nilsson]

To be honest

 

Originally posted by Steve Long

I agree. But I will admit that working on Sidekick made me think about whipping up a little FH mini-campaign where all character advancement would involve the purchase of pre-defined 3- and 5-point "advancement packages." It would be an interesting design experiment to create a setting/campaign that uses the flexibility of the HERO System rules -- but "in advance," to create a finite number of things the players pick from when they spend XP. That might make it easier for some players to use/learn the rules.

 

When I said that the others never agreed on playing HERO I wasn't completly honest. We did one try, but that try never moved beyond character creation.

 

One of the reason were the fact that when you come from the strict d20 character creation system and move on to the flexible HERO system all of possiblities became quite confusing for some of the players (and in the beginning even for me).

 

Your idea about packages might be one way to handle that confusion.

[dugfromthearth]

Originally posted by Steve Long

I agree. But I will admit that working on Sidekick made me think about whipping up a little FH mini-campaign where all character advancement would involve the purchase of pre-defined 3- and 5-point "advancement packages." It would be an interesting design experiment to create a setting/campaign that uses the flexibility of the HERO System rules -- but "in advance," to create a finite number of things the players pick from when they spend XP. That might make it easier for some players to use/learn the rules.

 

I really like the "class" arrangement of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, where skills and abilities are restrictd to certain classes. But classes are medieval/fantasy professions such as laborer, woodsman, scribe, etc instead of fighter, thief, cleric.

 

I've thought it would be cool to have "packages" for that sort of thing where you could either just say "the NPC has been a trapper for a long time so they get the trapper 5pt package 3 times". Or characters would just buy up their abilities in such preset packages.

 

I would definitely like a book filled with packages for creating standard NPC types and hero types. Kind of a mixture of warhammer profession classes with the "kits" from D&D 2nd edition for different types of thieves, rangers, etc.

 

It would be great to be able to help a player create a character (or again whip up an NPC) by choosing: townsfolk package, merchant package, and militia package. Or Wilderness package, hunter package X2, and animal handler (falcon) package.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Classes or packages

 

I fully agree that if you want to help people into the system, the best (or at least one of the best) ways of doing it would be by giving many examples on how to handle a common element. This could either be done with classes or with packages.

 

It might be good to keep the target audience in mind. Packages might work for people that have tried games like those produce by White Wolf. "Classes" might be better for d20 players.

 

BESM d20 (or at least large parts of it) are available for free on Guardians of Order's home page. In that text there's an example on how to break down the d20 system into a point buy system. Inspiriation for good package for the d20 audiance should be found there.

[Damon_Dusk]

Mini packages

 

I can't really speak for him, but I did check over Killer Shrike's AD&D and D&D 3E conversion to Hero and there are many "mini-packages" that might help out (for fantasy games at least). Things like "Heavy Foot Warrior", "Brawler", etc. as well as fully laid out classes like "Fighter". I can't remember the URL exactly, but I think you can find it in the Fantasy Hero board.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Re: Mini packages

 

Originally posted by Damon_Dusk

I can't really speak for him, but I did check over Killer Shrike's AD&D and D&D 3E conversion to Hero and there are many "mini-packages" that might help out (for fantasy games at least). Things like "Heavy Foot Warrior", "Brawler", etc. as well as fully laid out classes like "Fighter". I can't remember the URL exactly, but I think you can find it in the Fantasy Hero board.

 

The URL is:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/FantasyHERO.htm

 

I have only looked at it very briefly, so I can't judge it.

[zornwil]

Re: Wow

 

Originally posted by fredrik_nilsson

For those that has played both systems what more needs to be changed to bring in the essence of the HERO system without actually playing it?

(lots of other stuff snipped from this post)

 

I wonder if it might be easier to bring the essence of M&M into HERO?

 

Here's my thoughts, bear in mind only having tried to play M&M once (although we will do some more later):

 

M&M's biggest deal is its lack of granularity - not just in terms of math, but in terms of power. In fact, if you think about it, every power is a freaking framework! It's actually a cool idea, and has an advantage over HERO in that I think they've at least done in it in a way where the frameworks are more logical frankly but again only at this non-granular level.

 

But it's other big deal is a general consistency with d20 (saving throws, d20 (single dice), the movement method, etc.) of course. I guess supposedly that's "simple" but I sure don't find it so; I think moreso it's just that d20 is familiar to more people so THAT is what it really boils down to.

 

M&M's compared to HERO really values knock-out punches and absolutes, whereas as noted previously HERO does not. In fact they're nearly polar opposites on this point except that M&M offers several mitigating factors, most notable being those Hero Points. This is all taste of course - many people seem to love M&M's relative commonality of drama, others despise it. But the system, to be fair, can easily be tweaked (like HERO), to lessen that, so don't let me overstate this too much.

 

My feeling is that because M&M is less granular and more absolute, it's probably easier to M&Mize HERO rather than HEROize M&M. Now, part of the problem with this is that anyone with the expertise to do so most likely doesn't want to - that takes out the very things they are most keen on with HERO!

 

But that being said, start simplifying HERO a LOT. Get rid of the STUN and BODY damage system, replace it with M&M's mechanic (yuck, but that IS part of the essence of M&M). Allow a saving throw based on CON or the other appropriate characteristics (EGO for mental, etc.). Apply damage like M&M If the saving throw is missed. For levels of powers, do something along the lines of 1 level = equivalent of 7.5 points of a power (I'm thinking that a level 10 power = 75 points of power) and rewrite them as such. For advantages and lims, get rid of the smaller ones, keep the -1/+1 ones, change the 1/2 ones to be more general, anything more than -1/+1 scale down a little. Or maybe just look at M&M's list and use those - yeah, that's probably better. Dump the SPD chart, but use SPD as an initiative determinant.

 

But I'm just tossing out ideas. What is it that YOU like about HERO and want to replicate in M&M? And what is it you like about M&M and would want to keep or replicate in HERO?

 

To be brutally honest, if your players are religiously d20, I would just surrender to that.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Originally posted by zornwil

I wonder if it might be easier to bring the essence of M&M into HERO?

 

Here's my thoughts, bear in mind only having tried to play M&M once (although we will do some more later):

 

M&M's biggest deal is its lack of granularity - not just in terms of math, but in terms of power. In fact, if you think about it, every power is a freaking framework! It's actually a cool idea, and has an advantage over HERO in that I think they've at least done in it in a way where the frameworks are more logical frankly but again only at this non-granular level.

 

But it's other big deal is a general consistency with d20 (saving throws, d20 (single dice), the movement method, etc.) of course. I guess supposedly that's "simple" but I sure don't find it so; I think moreso it's just that d20 is familiar to more people so THAT is what it really boils down to.

 

M&M's compared to HERO really values knock-out punches and absolutes, whereas as noted previously HERO does not. In fact they're nearly polar opposites on this point except that M&M offers several mitigating factors, most notable being those Hero Points. This is all taste of course - many people seem to love M&M's relative commonality of drama, others despise it. But the system, to be fair, can easily be tweaked (like HERO), to lessen that, so don't let me overstate this too much.

 

My feeling is that because M&M is less granular and more absolute, it's probably easier to M&Mize HERO rather than HEROize M&M. Now, part of the problem with this is that anyone with the expertise to do so most likely doesn't want to - that takes out the very things they are most keen on with HERO!

 

But that being said, start simplifying HERO a LOT. Get rid of the STUN and BODY damage system, replace it with M&M's mechanic (yuck, but that IS part of the essence of M&M). Allow a saving throw based on CON or the other appropriate characteristics (EGO for mental, etc.). Apply damage like M&M If the saving throw is missed. For levels of powers, do something along the lines of 1 level = equivalent of 7.5 points of a power (I'm thinking that a level 10 power = 75 points of power) and rewrite them as such. For advantages and lims, get rid of the smaller ones, keep the -1/+1 ones, change the 1/2 ones to be more general, anything more than -1/+1 scale down a little. Or maybe just look at M&M's list and use those - yeah, that's probably better. Dump the SPD chart, but use SPD as an initiative determinant.

 

But I'm just tossing out ideas. What is it that YOU like about HERO and want to replicate in M&M? And what is it you like about M&M and would want to keep or replicate in HERO?

 

To be brutally honest, if your players are religiously d20, I would just surrender to that.

 

I like your attitude, but I'm born in late April (I'm a Taurus) which makes me real stubborn.

 

Speaking of horoscopes, I just checked up todays reading for me and it said this:

 

More than likely, your reluctance to speak is apt to get you in trouble today, dear Taurus. You may be hesitant to share what you know for fear of what other people might think. You should realize that you are actually using this as an excuse to hide what is really just selfish behavior. Share your knowledge with others and you will be amazed at the knowledge that is sent back to you in return. Keep in mind, however, that you may need to wait for it.

 

I know that it's just a hoax, but it was a funny coincidence.

 

You have many good points. The framework idea might be something for Steve and the Sidekick Project. Making up loads of pre-made frameworks should be of great benefit for many new players.

 

The reason why I want to HEROize the d20 community is simple. The d20 system is actually not that bad as everbody keeps saying as long as you're satisfied with what you're given. If you want to do even the smallest changes strange things starts to happen. There is almost impossible to predict how gamebalance will be effected when you change the system. A natural effect of this is that the existing races and classes becomes more or less a religion, unless your prepared to risk a few sessions with handelling the effects of unbalanced PCs.

 

I've seen several attempts to solve this problem, and most of them has been with the help of point buy systems (like BESM, MnM and SAS). None of the attempts has been to my liking. BESM and SAS comes from a rules-light system, so bringing them into a rules-heavier system made them loose a bit of their benefits. The games aren't bad, but their original versions are much better. MnM works better in a d20 enviroment than the other two, becuase it only uses those parts of the d20 system that benefits it. MnM still lacks something, and that something is the ability to produce the exact power (or equipment) that you want. The Extras/Flaws system is just to rough.

 

The easiest thing to do would be to fix those parts of MnM that bugs me, but one of my primary goals with this little project is to give the HERO system a larger following.

 

I don't see the problem in having two versions of the HERO system, if the are compatible enough so that it increase the sales of genre books. This worked for Guardians of Order, so it could work for Hero Games too.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by fredrik_nilsson

(stuff snipped)

I've seen several attempts to solve this problem, and most of them has been with the help of point buy systems (like BESM, MnM and SAS). None of the attempts has been to my liking. BESM and SAS comes from a rules-light system, so bringing them into a rules-heavier system made them loose a bit of their benefits. The games aren't bad, but their original versions are much better. MnM works better in a d20 enviroment than the other two, becuase it only uses those parts of the d20 system that benefits it. MnM still lacks something, and that something is the ability to produce the exact power (or equipment) that you want. The Extras/Flaws system is just to rough.

 

Fractional Extra/Flaws ought to go a long way towards helping; you could borrow the 1/4 scale of HERO.

 

The easiest thing to do would be to fix those parts of MnM that bugs me, but one of my primary goals with this little project is to give the HERO system a larger following.

 

That's nice, but I'm still not clear, other than granularity/accuracy, what you can bring over. I think that your comments about how small changes introduce larger problems into d20 (and I'm merely parroting, I don't know enough about it myself so make no such claim either way) is indicative of a flaw within the system whose source must be found before you start transplanting HERO over it. (Hmm, that sounds a bit harsh, please don't take it as such).

 

I don't see the problem in having two versions of the HERO system, if the are compatible enough so that it increase the sales of genre books. This worked for Guardians of Order, so it could work for Hero Games too.

 

I dunno. I think HERO losing some of its identity is a bad business decision; too costly (it's not cheap to double-produce), and it confuses what their approach/core is. HERO, in my mind, is a very different game than d20. Not better, not worse (or at least I'll say that for sake of argument ), but fundamentally different.

 

Now, maybe, a viable path would be for HERO to license out that property - let a small company with the time and energy to produce d20 versions of HERO products do it. First the "basic conversion kit", and then the genre books and other materials. Both parties might win then as the consumer base is not confused as to the direction and both make money.

 

I'm suspicious though, if this is mainly to make d20 compatible source books, how worthwhile this is, as to me (personally) it seems like it's not that hard to use any sourcebook. I've used a few non-HERO ones with no issue. But then again, importantly, I don't really care much about character writeups, and the few times I do, I can just sit down and make a HERO version easily enough.

[zornwil]

PS - please DO keep us up to date on your efforts. I am interested, I imagine others are. I hope my last post didn't come across as discouraging.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Thanks for your thoughts

 

Thanks for your thoughts Zornwil. I like feed-back, both "the pros and the cons", as long as the critic is helping the creation process move forward.

 

Here are some thoughts, or rather reflections, on what you wrote about.

 

The major issue with d20

Let's start with normal d20 with no changes whatsever.

 

Challenge Rating

One of the key elements in that system is the CR or Challenge Rating. It is supposed to be a tool to gauge how difficult something is to achive for a certain group of people. The number of experience points you recieve is also based around the CR of a task. When your new to the system this is really helpful (at least for the first sessions of DMing). After a while you begin to get so used to the idea that everything should have the exact CR (read a d20 bulletin board sometime and you will see what I mean) that the former tool becomes the goal. Every discussion about game balance and d20 either start or end with CR. The problem is that there aren't any good guidelines for how to set the CR. For combat it's not that hard, since you can compare it to another NPC from some book, but how do you set a CR for task like using social skills (remember that you gain experience based on CR).

 

The Experience System

Having an experience system based on CR confuses many DMs. Situations that don't have a CR doesn't always recieve expeience, like good roleplaying (or generally making the group have fun).

 

No Weaknesses

In normal d20 there aren't any disadvantages of any kind. If your lucky you might recieve benefits for good roleplaying (or some similar award from the DM).

 

Flexibility

Yet another problem that has grew out of the CR problem. Do not change a character that is balanced against a certain CR, because when your done the CR might be different (but you can't be certain before you've play tested the character).

 

Conclussion

I you can see the CR is my main issue in the system. The MnM version solved this in another way (weaknesses are also found in MnM), but this time I'm only talking about regular d20.

[JmOz]

Originally posted by Steve Long

I agree. But I will admit that working on Sidekick made me think about whipping up a little FH mini-campaign where all character advancement would involve the purchase of pre-defined 3- and 5-point "advancement packages." It would be an interesting design experiment to create a setting/campaign that uses the flexibility of the HERO System rules -- but "in advance," to create a finite number of things the players pick from when they spend XP. That might make it easier for some players to use/learn the rules.

 

Actualy a couple of years ago I started doing a work up for a Class/Level version of Champions.

 

IIRC you had to get 25 Xp to advance to the next level (I'm sure that would have gone by by quickly)

 

On a side note it actualy would be relativly easy to add it to the new Quick Character generator in Champions, each level would have some kind of basic lay out:

 

+5 to Characteristics

+10 to Primary Powers

+5 to Secondary Power

+5 to Skills

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Steve Long

I agree. But I will admit that working on Sidekick made me think about whipping up a little FH mini-campaign where all character advancement would involve the purchase of pre-defined 3- and 5-point "advancement packages." It would be an interesting design experiment to create a setting/campaign that uses the flexibility of the HERO System rules -- but "in advance," to create a finite number of things the players pick from when they spend XP. That might make it easier for some players to use/learn the rules.

 

If I may say so, I think this idea deserves serious consideration as an option to include when you start to work on your official fantasy campaign settings. I've gathered from your past remarks on the likes of The Turakian Age that there will be races, magic styles and the like that will be specific to a setting, so there's already precedent for laying out a few predefined "character classes." This might also help ease in players coming to FH from the ubiquitous D&D fantasy campaigns.

[JohnTaber]

Hi Gents,

 

Great topic.

 

When I think of what makes Hero unique I think of two things...

1) The Special Effect - To me this is key. In my mind this is what makes everything tick. It is one of those ideas that is so simple it's brilliant.

 

2) Point Based - Again key. Already discussed.

[pinecone]

One possable way to turn those M&Mers to the path of light and Hero is to just play M&M...then after people have characters they like,convert them over to Hero for a "Cross-dimention" run or two ,then go back to M&M.That way they have a way to get a fair comparison of whats cool about each.I have played a few games of M&M. And for me it was "beer and pretzles" Hero. I'd also suggest someone run some Silver age sentenals for yet annother version of D20 supers. I found SAS to be much closer to D&D D20 than M&M.For me the coolest past of Hero is the controll and ballence.M&M was easy to mess up for a old time min-maxer like me and I can see it becomming a problem over time as people explore the system. Hero is plentry breakable too but is so full of utility that you can explore without busting things......

[zornwil]

Re: Thanks for your thoughts

 

Originally posted by fredrik_nilsson

Thanks for your thoughts Zornwil. I like feed-back, both "the pros and the cons", as long as the critic is helping the creation process move forward.

 

Here are some thoughts, or rather reflections, on what you wrote about.

 

The major issue with d20

Let's start with normal d20 with no changes whatsever.

 

Challenge Rating

(snip)

 

As far as discreet tactical situations, Chalenge Rating isn't much different from whatever your target roll is in HERO, correct? I have to roll or better (or less, whichever, I can't recall), and I succeed. HERO works the same way with combat and skills.

 

But I assume ths is more on the overall challenges. HERO's system is very broad and not granular. I created a system, partially inspired by other systems (including old AD&D) which you can get to at http://www.asterick.com/realschluss/x-champions/house_rules/ch_gaining_reputation_and_experienc.htm - I have found players to like it quite a bit, you can basically just get rid of fractions by multiplying it out and rounding if desired. There's a "growth dial", so to speak, so you can set it for fast or slow growth. Maybe this will help?? I included money as sort of an homage to AD&D, but also because it's a key way for villains and mercenary heroes (as well as heroes who gain money for charity and such) to benefit.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Mini packages

 

Originally posted by Damon_Dusk

I can't really speak for him, but I did check over Killer Shrike's AD&D and D&D 3E conversion to Hero and there are many "mini-packages" that might help out (for fantasy games at least). Things like "Heavy Foot Warrior", "Brawler", etc. as well as fully laid out classes like "Fighter". I can't remember the URL exactly, but I think you can find it in the Fantasy Hero board.

Thanx for the plug

 

The basic idea behind my Fantasy HERO material (http://www.FantasyHERO.com is the fastest way to get there) is to provide starting packages for those that want to use them, to provide flexibility, provide a common frame of reference, and a laundry list of other positive benefits, while at the same time not preventing a player from mixing & matching to suit themselves or ignoring it all outright and making their character 100% from scratch.

 

Its an extention of a system of Templating I have been using for a number of years now, but never got around to organizing and typing into the computer to post (most of the templates were done on printed character sheets in a serial fashion or handwritten in GM Notes) .

 

So, I use 4 types of Packages: Race (1 and only 1 may be taken -- required for my campaign but waivable/ignorable), and 3 types of "Profession Packages": Basic, Extention, and Composite. Cultural and Background Packages are combinable with this as well without a hitch, but being setting oriented I've not bothered to define any as of yet as they would vary from setting to setting, GM to GM. Basic Packages are archetypical core abilities and are all priced at 55 points exactly (and are geared to work at 125 starting point characters). Extention Packages vary in size and exist to extend a character's capabilities in various ways. Composite Packages are typically made up of 1 Basic Package, 0 to many Extention packages, and any number of custom abilities, but it is quite viable to simply take 2 Basic Packages, or no Basic Packages. They serve to define specific concepts, organized professions, or what not like "Archer" or "Second Story Man". In all cases they are only examples of ONE way to do such a profession, not the ONLY way.

 

Regardless of whether they are using the Packages or not, all characters can advance in whatever fashion they desire; while many of the Profession Packages present Options, they are only suggestions intended as a convenience, and not a fixed progression.

 

 

The Templating concept is useful to other genres as well, but Fantasy particularly benefits from it IMO.

 

 

Someone else mentioned Warhammer FRPG; thats also one of my favorites. At some time in the future I hope to make the time to provide a WHFRPG conversion spoke into the HERO System as well. I did a "Fast and Dirty" WHFRPG->HERO System Conversion for HAYMAKER! a number of years ago, which should be easy to clean up and format to fit in with my current approach...we'll see.

[dugfromthearth]

cool Killer Shrike

 

 

another thing about HERO that is or was unique and an essence of the system is presence attacks. You didn't just say something was frightening, it actually had an effect.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Re: Re: Thanks for your thoughts

 

Originally posted by zornwil

As far as discreet tactical situations, Chalenge Rating isn't much different from whatever your target roll is in HERO, correct? I have to roll or better (or less, whichever, I can't recall), and I succeed. HERO works the same way with combat and skills.

 

That is not quite true. If I were to look at one single thing in the HERO SYSTEM that are most similar to CR, I'd say it would be the total amount of character points that a NPC or object have. The problem is that you have to guess the poits total, since d20 isn't point based.

 

The thing that you write about is also part of the CR discussion, but CR handles entire scenes or situations and not single dice rolls.