Alternate Magic Item Creation

[Armitage]

I was looking at the rules for magic item creation in Pathfinder. For those not familiar, it's like 3.5 D&D, but you don't spend experience points, you need to make a skill roll, and a bad failure creates a cursed item.

Then I saw the write up for Tobias "The Toad" Vandaleur in Champions Villains Volume Two. One of his powers is the ability to create magical items through the use of Transform.

This made me wonder if a similar power would be practical in a Heroic-level Fantasy Hero game in which equipment is obtained by spending money, rather than character points.

 

For example:

We start with a basic short sword from Fantasy Hero.

Short Sword: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (22 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 10 (-1/2)

 

We want to turn it into a Fiery Sword from Enchanted Items.

Fiery Sword (Short sword): (Total: 62 Active Cost, 25 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (60 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 10 (-1/2) (Real Cost: 24) plus +1 OCV (2 Active Points); OAF (-1) (Real Cost: 1)

 

Adding 10 Active Points of powers would add +2 BODY to an object for Transform, for a total of 4 BODY of Transform damage needed. If we make the hypothetical magic item creation ability do 4 BODY of Transform per day, then we get 1 Day per 10 Active Points of powers, which seems like a good period of time.

 

Assuming each type of magic item requires a separate Talent, like D&D/Pathfinder:

Craft Magic Arms & Armor: Severe Transform 1d6+1 (standard effect: 4 points) (Normal weapon or armor into magic item, Healed by breaking the item), Improved Results Group (Any item for which the creator has the appropriate spells; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (35 Active Points); OAF Immobile Expendable (Extremely Difficult to obtain new Focus; Expensive enchantment materials; -3), Damage Over Time (8 damage increments, damage occurs every 1 Day, can be negated by interrupting enchantment work; -3/4), Limited Target (Weapons and armor; -1/2), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), Requires A Roll (Skill roll; -1 per 10 Active Points of created item; -1/2), Concentration Applies Throughout (-1/2), Side Effects (Cursed item created if Skill Roll fails by 2 or more; -1/4). Total cost: 5 points.

(This Power isn't considered Constant, so I had to add Throughout to Concentration as a custom Limitation)

 

If we assume that this is a +1 Flaming Short Sword in D&D or Pathfinder, it would cost 4,000 gp to enchant.

A short sword has 5 BODY, and we would be adding 40 Active Points of abilities, for a total of 13 BODY for a Transform. With this Talent, it would take 7 days to enchant, compared to 8 days in D&D/Pathfinder. A Skill Roll at -6 would be made. If it fails, the gold is wasted. If it fails by 2 or more, a cursed sword is created. Obviously, this is a situation where the GM would make the Skill Roll instead of the player. My first thought is a magical version of Weaponsmith, with each type of magic item being a separate category to be purchased.

As written, this Talent couldn't cause more than 32 BODY of Transform. A more powerful magic item creator would buy a larger of number damage increments, allowing more powerful items to be created. A faster creator could increase the damage or buy a smaller increment.

 

A 5 point Talent, a week of work, and 4,000 gp versus 25 experience points. Reasonable? Unbalancing?

 

EDIT: Originally, I had a cursed item being created if the roll was failed by 5 or more, but that's the margin used in Pathfinder. Given the difference in probability between d20 and 3d6, failing by 2 or more might be more comparable.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Alternate Magic Item Creation

 

It's an option, though the method that I settled on was based more on FH1 and notes in the 5th ed FH. I take the Real Cost of the item, and use that as the Base Cost of a creation ritual. I assume a base time increment of 1 day per 5 Active points in the item, which can be modified by moving down the time chart, and apply all creation limitations to the creation ritual (which is technically an Instant power). To learn the ritual, the creator of the magic item pays only the final Real Cost of the creation ritual.

 

For example, we'd take your Fiery Sword, and make a Create Fiery Sword ritual:

 

Create Fiery Sword (Base 25)

Limitations: OAF-Expendable (-3); Concentrate 0 DCV (-1/2), RSR (-1/2), Side Effects-Cursed weapon if roll failed (major, affects recipient of power -1/4)

Real Cost: 5

 

So, the character could learn this ritual for 5 CP (modified by whatever rules that the campaign has for spells), and can create the sword in about 12 days. If we wanted to change the length of the ritual, we can either modify the creation ritual (by using an Advantage for faster construction, or a Limitation for slower construction), or you could allow faster or slower creation after the fact, by giving bonuses to the skill roll for taking longer, or penalties for rushing.

 

JoeG

[Armitage]

Re: Alternate Magic Item Creation

 

It's an option' date=' though the method that I settled on was based more on FH1 and notes in the 5th ed FH. I take the Real Cost of the item, and use that as the Base Cost of a creation ritual.[/quote']

 

The thing is, I'm trying to avoid having a character pay points for each individual item they can create. Since they are already paying points for their spells, it doesn't seem right to have them pay points for each item they can create using those spells. My goal is more a generic ability that gets applied to the spells they already have. It's like the alternate potion/scroll method that I posted recently, in which the ability to scribe a scroll or brew a potion was Delayed Effect applied to the character's spells as a Naked Advantage instead of paying points for each individual potion or scroll.

Plus, how many characters need to create flaming swords often enough that it's worth spending points on the specific ability to manufacture flaming swords?

[Ternaugh]

Re: Alternate Magic Item Creation

 

The thing is, I'm trying to avoid having a character pay points for each individual item they can create. Since they are already paying points for their spells, it doesn't seem right to have them pay points for each item they can create using those spells. My goal is more a generic ability that gets applied to the spells they already have. It's like the alternate potion/scroll method that I posted recently, in which the ability to scribe a scroll or brew a potion was Delayed Effect applied to the character's spells as a Naked Advantage instead of paying points for each individual potion or scroll.

Plus, how many characters need to create flaming swords often enough that it's worth spending points on the specific ability to manufacture flaming swords?

 

I probably didn't explain it enough, but the points are only spent on the Create power (the creation ritual); I don't charge CP for items under this method. The effect of a Create is to form a magic item, glyph, scroll, or whatever. A wizard could make one sword, or a dozen, with the control being the rarity of the materials and the time needed. And though I hadn't really thought about it, I'd probably allow someone to take a Variable Effect advantage to the Create to allow modifying the ritual for different sword types, or different effects on the sword. That way, he could make a flaming sword one week, and an ice blade the next.

 

JoeG

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Alternate Magic Item Creation

 

Yes, it is possible. It's actually how some of the Magic Systems on my site do magic item creation.

 

However, even if you divorce magic item creation from points, you need some kind of opportunity cost or barrier to entry or else simply fiat away the propensity towards massive proliferation of items.

[Armitage]

Re: Alternate Magic Item Creation

 

I probably didn't explain it enough' date=' but the points are only spent on the Create power (the creation ritual); I don't charge CP for items under this method. [/quote']

 

I understood. I just don't like the idea of spending points on an invisibility spell, an armor spell, a healing spell, and a fireball spell, and then spending more points on each ability to create an invisibility ring, an invisibility potion, an armor potion, a healing potion, a fireball wand, and a flaming sword.

I'd like something like the Variable Effect you mentioned - a single ability to create magic swords, the specific abilities depending on your own available magic.

[Armitage]

Re: Alternate Magic Item Creation

 

However' date=' even if you divorce magic item creation from points, you need some kind of opportunity cost or barrier to entry or else simply fiat away the propensity towards massive proliferation of items.[/quote']

 

Other than the availability of thousands of gold pieces, I suppose you could go the route that 1e and 2e D&D went. Rare and exotic components become necessary to create anything but the most basic magic items. Like the "Points from raw materials" optional rule in Fantasy Hero, but instead of providing Character Points, the materials are a necessary part of the Focus for creation.

Characters would have to research how to create items, or deal with NPCs to get formulas, or search for lost formulas in the tombs of wizards who created such items in the past, and then go questing for the components themselves.

On the other hand, I've heard players complain about the 1e/2e magic item creation system because they don't want to "go on an adventure just to create something to make adventures easier."

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Alternate Magic Item Creation

 

My goal is more a generic ability that gets applied to the spells they already have. It's like the alternate potion/scroll method that I posted recently, in which the ability to scribe a scroll or brew a potion was Delayed Effect applied to the character's spells as a Naked Advantage instead of paying points for each individual potion or scroll.

 

It sounds like maybe you're looking for a Naked Advantage: Usable On Others, to be applied to the character's other spells; maybe a Naked Advantage version of the UBO With Differing Modifiers rules, which are the basis for the alternate item creation rules Ternaugh mentioned. (Side note: Ternaugh, those rules specifically call for applying the UBO Advantage to the creation power.)

 

Magic items walk a finicky line between in-game and meta-game stuff, moreso because magic items tend to be based on Powers. Buying new Powers is normally GM driven; what you're looking for is some way to give a (potentially player-) character the ability to give other characters new Powers. I was going to write a whole bunch more on this subject, but just this bit of thinking seems to tell me that Transform is probably the right way to go after all.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Alternate Magic Item Creation

 

I like it - it's a simple method of altering items that don't cost points normally. And leaves the option for other Characters to spend their own Points to make it a permanent part of their Character.

 

The biggest control is - and should be - In Game. Availability of Gold, Time, and Exotic Materials. And possibly the simple availability of this Spell could limit things.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Alternate Magic Item Creation

 

It sounds like maybe you're looking for a Naked Advantage: Usable On Others, to be applied to the character's other spells; maybe a Naked Advantage version of the UBO With Differing Modifiers rules, which are the basis for the alternate item creation rules Ternaugh mentioned. (Side note: Ternaugh, those rules specifically call for applying the UBO Advantage to the creation power.)

 

Magic items walk a finicky line between in-game and meta-game stuff, moreso because magic items tend to be based on Powers. Buying new Powers is normally GM driven; what you're looking for is some way to give a (potentially player-) character the ability to give other characters new Powers. I was going to write a whole bunch more on this subject, but just this bit of thinking seems to tell me that Transform is probably the right way to go after all.

 

Note on the Side Note: I would recommend checking out FH6e 320, which lists an alternate item creation system similar to the one I use (mine's actually cribbed from the FH5e version, mixed with a little bit of inspiration from the original FH). While Differing Modifiers (6e1 359) is referenced as being "similar", UBO isn't required in FH's alternate item creation rules.

 

JoeG

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Alternate Magic Item Creation

 

Note on the Side Note: I would recommend checking out FH6e 320, which lists an alternate item creation system similar to the one I use (mine's actually cribbed from the FH5e version, mixed with a little bit of inspiration from the original FH). While Differing Modifiers (6e1 359) is referenced as being "similar", UBO isn't required in FH's alternate item creation rules.

 

JoeG

 

D'oh! Apologies... I coulda sworn!