STUN Damage in FH

[Legendsmiths]

My campaign has been running for a while now and we are running into STUN issues. With the mega-damage that large creatures bring, characters are usually 1 hit away from being out of the fight due to STUN.

 

Hero's design preference for superheroic combat certainly is obvious here, considering the amount of STUN most attacks can cause relative to the amount of defense a character can have.

 

Has anyone else dealt with this issue and how?

 

I've tried the variant STUN rules from FH and don't like them. I think they are too soft. From my assessment, it seems like STUN should be dealt at about 80% of what it is now.

 

This lead me to the idea that higher point characters should buy damage reduction to acheive this. On one level I like this solution. It allows the player to make a choice. If they want a "tough" guy, then they have to buy Damage Reduction. When bought STUN only, it actually isn't too expensive, especially when built like Combat Luck. I think I have 25% DR vs. PD or ED (STUN Only) at 4 pts.

 

I've thought about modifying the hit location chart and making chest 2.5x, Head 4x, Vitals 3x, and so on. That just seems a bit much.

 

As a campaign rule, STR currently costs x2 and Deadly Blow uses variant pricing of 2/DC, 4/DC, 6/DC for each of its levels (instead of 4, 7, 10 for +3 DC). I have only 1 really strong character, and only 1 character with Deadly blow. At 145 pts (started at 75) most are doing 8 DCs in combat.

 

It's not so much the bad guys I'm concerned with, it's the players getting that one big hit.

[Alcamtar]

Why not just have the characters raise their defenses? If you want to reduce STUN 20%, figure out how many points that is and then recommend they buy more PD and ED. You could even give bonus XP to pay for it, and could also alter the NCM limit on these if that is a problem.

 

Personally I'd find it easier to just subtract my defenses in combat (which I have to do anyway) than to compute 25% every time I get hit.

 

Mike

[Olliande]

A little more

 

Do you have problem with killing attack and stun multiplier, with normal attack or with both?

[Legendsmiths]

I have a problem with both.

 

Take an average fighter. He's got PD 6 and rPD 6. He stops 12 stun on a hit and 6 body. Body damage is working fine, no problems there. However, hit him with a DC 8 attack in the head and he is now taking 40 STUN total, 28 that get through. Granted that is a head shot.

 

Mathematically I think the problem is that defense vs. STUN is only getting doubled, not tripled. 1 pt of armor stops 1 STUN, not 3, but it stops 1 Body. In effect, it stops the Body damage from a 1 DC attack, but only 1/3 of the STUN. Usually, 1/3 STUN defense comes from the player in the form of their natural PD, and that leaves 1/3 that gets through. Really not much problem there except that the range of STUN is such that in a heroic game, low defenses get overwhelmed quickly.

 

However, raising defenses isn't the answer since the characters can become nigh-invulnerable against weaker attacks.

 

As I see it, -1 STUN/DC seems about right. If in that 40 STUN hit he actually took 32, 20 would get through. He would still be stunned, but that 8 STUN makes a big diff in a fight.

 

Now I don't think this is terribly broken, and use of Damage Reduction can cover it, but I was wondering if anyone else felt the same way.

[Lord Liaden]

Not to make light of your concerns, but do your players make use of defensive actions such as Block and Dodge during combat, or do they just take a blow and swing back until one or the other party goes down? I've found that to make a significant difference in how long the party stays in the fight.

 

Something else that I've found helpful in games where a lot of damage is thrown around is to eliminate rolling random Hit Locations. They're reserved only for placed shots, which still allows for a lethal blow but demands a level of skill or natural coordination to execute.

[Killer Shrike]

If its the STUN Multiplier that bugs you, consider applying the STUN Multiple only to the BODY Damage which gets thru defenses, but apply no Defenses against it.

 

Thus if a character wearing 8PD Plate has 3 normal PD and gets hit with 10 BODY with a x4 multiple, 2 BODY get thru. Therefore instead of taking 40 STUN - 11 PD = 29 STUN the character instead takes 8 STUN (applying only Damage Reduction if they have it).

 

This will dramatically decrease the STUN lottery effect and also hamper characters from cheesing out Killing Attacks with extra STUN Multiples.

[dugfromthearth]

for killing attacks I roll a normal d6 per dc and then just use the killing effects. I elminate the stun lottery entirely.

 

I also use the GURPS hit location modifiers (which are less then HERO) but only apply the damage multipliers after defenses which greatly reduces the effect.

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by mudpyr8

I have a problem with both.

 

Take an average fighter. He's got PD 6 and rPD 6. He stops 12 stun on a hit and 6 body. Body damage is working fine, no problems there. However, hit him with a DC 8 attack in the head and he is now taking 40 STUN total, 28 that get through. Granted that is a head shot.

 

It seems to me that a 2 1/2 d6 Killing Attack to the head should knock you out, if not kill you.

Seriously, FH is designed to reflect that heroic characters in dramatic narrative are far more often knocked out than killed. I liked your idea of tinkering with the Hit Loc modifiers. Why was that too much? What stun range are you looking for?

 

Keith "Battle Axe in my forehead, but still swinging" Curtis

[austenandrews]

For KA's, I'd consider just dropping the Hit Location STUN multiples by 1. Or as someone suggested, buy up the average stats of the PCs. How about 10 or 15 extra points of STUN for heroic characters?

 

As Lord Laiden said, it also matters what tactics the players use. If you've got a bunch of powergamers who covet each Phase like a priceless jewel, you're always going to have a problem convincing them to Block or Dodge or keep calm when their character is Stunned. But if your group is more flexible, you might try stretching out your combats time-wise, to encourage defensive maneuvers and combat recoveries instead of the usual "everyone hit them with their biggest attack" strategy.

 

-AA

[Guest Keneton]

Some solutions

 

I've had the honor of playing with mudpyr8 and I know that he knows mechanics so I'll get right to the solutions.

 

We have 3 seperate means of running stun multiples in hero. One is the best and the other is the fast method. The last is the odd method.

 

FAST: Do not use hit locations. Use 1/2d6+1 for all stun multiples. Use no critical or bleeding rules but do use impairing and disabling wounds.

 

Result is fast play with some realism.

 

ODD: Multiply stun x by 3 at all times. Add 2DC for head and vitals, 1 DC for stomach, subract 1 DC for thighs, subtract 2 DC for arms, legs, hands and feet.

 

Result allows for use of sectional armor, balnce of killing and normal attacks, no need to subtract before multiply before divide mess. Odd, but it works!

 

BEST: As above X3 for all stun x. Apply defense then afterward use normal stun table to remining damge.

 

result is great balance without radical change. Combat results in fewer one shots, but is still lethal. Balance between normal and killing.

 

good luck.

 

 

[Legendsmiths]

Thanks for the shout-out, Keneton.

 

So, in your "BEST" solution. Target gets hit for 6 body and has 6 PD on the head. This causes 18 STUN - 6 for defense = 12 * 2 = 24 STUN? Is that what you meant by apply the Normal Stun modifier from the Hit Location table?

 

In my local discussions we are going to abandon random hit locations unless someone makes a placed shot. Called shots will still be allowed. This is how we've been playing npcs but not pcs, so this is an easy change for us to make.

 

I like the BEST solution. I think we'll try that. We like crits and such, so we'll keep that, but I think it's all good.

 

So, to summarize:

 

Normal Damage: No change.

Killing Damage: STUNx x3, apply normal STUNx after armor. BODY damage is deal with normally.

 

I like that. It's simple, keeps things marginal, and works with existing rules and charts.

 

Thanks man.

[Legendsmiths]

Just had a brainstorm as I was running the numbers. What I was coming up with wasn't all that different from the standard modifiers. Which got me thinking.

 

Why not use a standard x3 STUNx. Period. Then, for any BODY that get's through apply the normal STUNx (for killing attacks) to the BODY that gets through defenses.

 

So, an 8 BODY attack to the head against 12 PD and 6 rPD would do:

 

24 - 12 = 12 STUN + 2 BODY x 5 = 22 STUN.

 

This attack would have done 40 STUN - 12 = 28 STUN.

 

Using Keneton's method, it would do 24 STUN (12 x 2).

 

Now, if it was a 6 BODY attack, it would do:

 

Mine: 18 -12 = 6 + 0 BODY x 5 = 6 STUN.

Keneton's: 12 STUN

Standard: 30 - 12 = 18 STUN.

 

So, using my system (which may actually be what Keneton meant), small hits are minimized and big hits are subdued.

[Legendsmiths]

Should I do the same for Normal Damage?

 

8d6 N does 8 BODY & 24 STUN. If any BODY gets through (unlikely) then it would use the standard STUNx as for Killing damage. This reduces the amount of STUN normal attacks do slightly, relative to a killing attack. Is this good? Bad? It is further stressed by the extreme bell curve introduced by multiple dice and may really be unnecessary.

 

Although, 48 N STUN to the head (2 PD) = 94 STUN. Using this system, it would be 16 BODY - 2 = 14 BODY x 5 = 70 STUN + 48 STUN = 118 STUN. Okay, probably not a good idea.

[Legendsmiths]

After doing more math (which I love), it is pretty clear that this won't really work and in some cases is worse than the original system.

 

e.g. PD 8 rPD 8 hit for 10 BODY in the chest.

 

Mine: 30 - 8 + 2 * 3 = 28

Keneton's: (30 - 8) x 1 = 22

Original: 30 - 8 = 22

 

Poop.

 

Take that as a head shot

 

Mine: 30 - 8 + 2 * 5 = 32

Keneton's: (30 - 8) x 2 = 44

Original: 50 - 8 = 42

 

Here Keneton's system does more than the original.

 

Which got me thinking. Ideally, the base x3 STUNx would actually be 2.5, roughly 80% of the original. -1 STUN/DC would accomplish this, but would be a pain in the but to calculate all of the time. Someone here had suggested that calculating 25% of their STUN everytime would also be annoying.

 

So, I eliminate random hitlocations (except for placed and called shots). That gets rid of the "STUN Lottery". Then, I create the following ability:

 

Heroic Resiliance

+2 PD or +2 ED, only vs. STUN (-1/2), cannot exceed base PD/ED (-1/2)

Cost: 1 pt per +2 PD or ED

 

This way, if you want to be tough you can, it doesn't alter the existing STUN rules (keeping things compatible), and doesn't involve multiplication. It's cheap, but is still an ability that must be purchased by "tough guys". 3 pts for +6 PD is still 3 pts. Since it is governed by the character's PD/ED, I'm not worried about the NCM issue, since this technically would take PD beyond the NCM.

 

The lack of random locations also has the interesting side effect of encouraging a practice many undertook which was to wear armor only on vital locations. Light Plate Breastplate and leather everywhere else. In a metagame sense, no one is going to target your arms/legs... why take the penalty for reduced damage (although an impairing wound to the leg can take you out of the fight, so there is still value). Most combatants would be satisfied with the body shot. This helps those characters who wish to be less encumbered by armor.

 

While I really like the elegance of Keneton's system, I don't think it gets me much in the long run. I like having locations so I don't want to get rid of them.

[Guest Keneton]

The key to the method is the apply defenses first. The head shots you examined will always be the rough end of the curb, but to show some others lets look at typical Fantasy Hero Fighters.

 

Con 15-20

PD 6+ say 6 armor = 12 Defense

Average DC's abot dc 7 or 8.

 

2d6+1 Killing produces 8 body hit.

 

Chest 8x3=24-12=12 with Nstun x of 1=12

Stomach or vitals 24-12=12x1.5=18 some guys are stunned

Arms legs etc 24-12=12/2=6 hardly a scratch

Head 24-12=12x2=24 Stunned but not out.

 

This makes for a pretty good balance in my book.

 

Normal FH rules would produce 40 stun on the head shot which is just plain silly.

 

Also in all of these cases Damage Reduction (see resliance in FH book) is a good buy as it applies LAST!

 

[Guest Keneton]

My tough fighters have pain resistance bought as either 25% or 50% Damage reduction physical, stun only(-1), must be aware of attack (-1/4). you can also add requires an ego roll (or con roll) if you like. This helps deal with the stun lotto well.

 

Did you closely examine the ODD method? It might fit your math better.

[Legendsmiths]

I did look at the ODD math. In your example, that head shot above would cause 28 STUN, only 4 more than your method. That's not a huge differnence in my book, especially considering some of the anomalies I noted.

 

I am encouraging Heroic Toughness is what we call it. It is essentially DR. We have a point limit prereq to encourage only powerful characters to have it. We have 4 levels: 25% STUN, 50% STUN, 25% BODY/50% STUN, 50% BOTH. That seems to work pretty well. I think once you facter in the Heroic Resilience I outlined above things'll be good.

 

I appreciate the kicker tho. You sparked some good idears.