Lim Value: 'Only to increase throwing distance'

[Ice9]

Re: Lim Value: 'Only to increase throwing distance'

 

Wait, buying a RKA with RBoS and extra Strength just to throw it farther? Why not just get an RKA with "Range Based on Higher than actual Strength (-0)"?

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Lim Value: 'Only to increase throwing distance'

 

Wait' date=' buying a RKA with RBoS and extra Strength just to throw it farther? Why not just get an RKA with "Range Based on Higher than actual Strength (-0)"?[/quote']

Because this way, you can stick Range Based On Strength on all your Ranged attacks.

 

Follow the Munchkin Brick Road!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Lim Value: 'Only to increase throwing distance'

 

RKA' date=' Range Based On Strength, OAF, Gestures, Incantations. 30 / 3 = 10. Granted, it's one point over, but oh well.[/quote']

 

OK, Character A has 60 STR and +30 STR, not for lifting. He punches for 18d6.

 

Character B has 60 STR, +30 only to throw things further, and a 2d6 RKA, OAF, with Range Based on STR, Gestures and Incantations.

 

Make the characters otherwise identical, put the two in combat and let's see who comes out on top.

 

By the book rules. Character A will Block the thrown spear, likely with a heavy advantage since Character B will be subject to range penalties. He is now standing right beside the OAF. Character B's action?

[Christopher]

Re: Lim Value: 'Only to increase throwing distance'

 

OK' date=' Character A has 60 STR and +30 STR, not for lifting. He punches for 18d6.[/quote']

That combination is highly unlikely in a 400 Points champion game. As I heard only Grond has that much STR and he is a solo-villian. And I bet he is slightly above 400 Points too.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Lim Value: 'Only to increase throwing distance'

 

That combination is highly unlikely in a 400 Points champion game. As I heard only Grond has that much STR and he is a solo-villian. And I bet he is slightly above 400 Points too.

 

The issue isn't what game it may or may not be appropriate for, but appropriate costing in general. If it makes you happier, we can compare:

 

Character A has 30 STR and +30 STR, not for lifting. He punches for 12d6.

 

Character B has 30 STR, +30 only to throw things further, and a 2d6 RKA, OAF, with Range Based on STR, Gestures and Incantations.

 

Make the characters otherwise identical, put the two in combat and let's see who comes out on top.

 

By the book rules. Character A will Block the thrown spear, likely with a heavy advantage since Character B will be subject to range penalties. He is now standing right beside the OAF. Character B's action?

 

Does dropping the base STR of both characters somehow change how limited the utility of the STR only for throwing is as compared to the STR which can be used for all purposes other than lifting? I suggest the fact that you would immediately disallow the latter purchase but apparently have no concerns about the former being allowed in a 400 point Champions game suggests there is a significant difference in the utility of the two abilities.

[Susano]

Re: Lim Value: 'Only to increase throwing distance'

 

The issue isn't what game it may or may not be appropriate for, but appropriate costing in general. If it makes you happier, we can compare:

 

Character A has 30 STR and +30 STR, not for lifting. He punches for 12d6.

 

This would be Hand-to-Hand Attack, not Limited STR.

[Christopher]

Re: Lim Value: 'Only to increase throwing distance'

 

Character B has 30 STR' date=' +30 only to throw things further, and a 2d6 RKA, OAF, with Range Based on STR, Gestures and Incantations.[/quote']

And most likely an power/martial Arts to get back up to 12 DC since he planned on having 12 DC with 30 STR all the time. Advantages for that include attacks that are harder to drain (unless unified with STR).

[Ice9]

Re: Lim Value: 'Only to increase throwing distance'

 

This would be Hand-to-Hand Attack, not Limited STR.

Strength, Not for Lifting includes a wider range of things than HA, such as maneuvers like Grab/Shove and resisting said maneuvers.

 

And most likely an power/martial Arts to get back up to 12 DC since he planned on having 12 DC with 30 STR all the time. Advantages for that include attacks that are harder to drain (unless unified with STR).

Which costs more points - exactly what the disagreement was about. I mean, we could decide to price Blast at 15 points per d6, and with the right limitations and other powers, you'd still be able to make a character that had the full DCs of Blast allowed for the campaign. But it would be overpriced - much like "Only for Throwing Distance" is overpriced at -1.

[Christopher]

Re: Lim Value: 'Only to increase throwing distance'

 

So let me get this straigt:

You want me to picture a 60 STR Brick. His entire ability to act in combat (Raw DC, Grab/Disarm STR, using throwables in combat), his movement (can go through Doors/walls with enough) and even some of his defenses (resisting/escaping entangle, grab disarm) is based solely on this SINGLE Characteristic, like no other archetype is based on one single charactersitic.

Then you want to to picture the exactly same build - except with half the STR, but a one shoot +30 AP RKA.

 

Sorry, but I call this comparing apples with oranges. In this chase "viable build" with "not viable build".

[Ice9]

Re: Lim Value: 'Only to increase throwing distance'

 

You want me to picture a 60 STR Brick. His entire ability to act in combat (Raw DC, Grab/Disarm STR, using throwables in combat), his movement (can go through Doors/walls with enough) and even some of his defenses (resisting/escaping entangle, grab disarm) is based solely on this SINGLE Characteristic, like no other archetype is based on one single charactersitic.

Then you want to to picture the exactly same build - except with half the STR, but a one shoot +30 AP RKA.

Pretty much, yes. But that's because people have been claiming that "30 less Strength for 15 less points" is a reasonable pricing, and would not be a disadvantage to the character.

[Christopher]

Re: Lim Value: 'Only to increase throwing distance'

 

Pretty much' date=' yes. But that's because people have been claiming that "30 less Strength for 15 less points" is a reasonable pricing, and would not be a disadvantage to the character.[/quote']

It isn't a disdavantage. Because of a simple reason.

You don't build a character with:

30 STR and +30 STR, only for Trhwoting distance

like a character with

60 STR

 

You build him like a a character with 30 STR +30 STR only for Throwing. For example a Blaster (Ranged attacks) that can apply "Range based on STR- 1/4" to every attack.

With the first 60 Ap attack or 60 Ap Multipower build that way you save again 12 points (60/1.25 = 48; 60-48 = 12).

 

On the other hand if you build a character with 60 STR + 30 STR, only for Throwing Distance then you for some reason desperately want to have 90 Throwign Distance STR and I am better carefull what you build there.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Lim Value: 'Only to increase throwing distance'

 

This would be Hand-to-Hand Attack' date=' not Limited STR.[/quote']

 

 

Strength' date=' Not for Lifting includes a wider range of things than HA, such as maneuvers like Grab/Shove and resisting said maneuvers. [/quote']

 

What he said.

 

Oh, AND throwing further!

 

And most likely an power/martial Arts to get back up to 12 DC since he planned on having 12 DC with 30 STR all the time. Advantages for that include attacks that are harder to drain (unless unified with STR).

 

Which costs more points - exactly what the disagreement was about. I mean' date=' we could decide to price Blast at 15 points per d6, and with the right limitations and other powers, you'd still be able to make a character that had the full DCs of Blast allowed for the campaign. But it would be overpriced - much like "Only for Throwing Distance" is overpriced at -1.[/quote']

 

What he said again!

 

Oh, and a 20 point STR Drain pulls both the martial artist and the Brick down the same 4 DC"s. The MA hits 0 STR much quicker, though, and a 0 Characteristic is pretty debilitating.

 

It isn't a disdavantage. Because of a simple reason.

You don't build a character with:

30 STR and +30 STR, only for Trhwoting distance

like a character with

60 STR

 

You build him like a a character with 30 STR +30 STR only for Throwing. For example a Blaster (Ranged attacks) that can apply "Range based on STR- 1/4" to every attack.

With the first 60 Ap attack or 60 Ap Multipower build that way you save again 12 points (60/1.25 = 48; 60-48 = 12).

 

On the other hand if you build a character with 60 STR + 30 STR, only for Throwing Distance then you for some reason desperately want to have 90 Throwign Distance STR and I am better carefull what you build there.

 

Why would I buy all my ranged attacks "Range based on STR", then pay 15 points to boost my maximum range? How often do you actually fire at attack at close to maximum range anyway? The rage penalties stack up very quickly.

 

I would also note that No Range is worth -1/2 whether you have 8 meters running after selling back 4 meters, or you fly at 50 meters, yet it seems like the flyer suffers much less from that lack of range.

 

In games where the GM is paranoid about limited powers and therefore lowballs limitations, the power gamers he is afraid will abuse the limitations will simply move on to some other combination, or just buy plain vanilla powers with no limitations. Meanwhile, those truly building a concept will pay the overpriced cost of limited powers imposed by that GM's paranoia. RESULT: The power gamer's character is still more powerful, and the balance desired has been lost anyway.

[Christopher]

Re: Lim Value: 'Only to increase throwing distance'

 

I would also note that No Range is worth -1/2 whether you have 8 meters running after selling back 4 meters' date=' or you fly at 50 meters, yet it seems like the flyer suffers much less from that lack of range.[/quote']

Flying allows you to add your Speed to damage and has a lot of secondary uses.

And like any melee combatant, speedster or someone with stretching you would have to cross the area of continous/uncontrolled AOE's (inclduing natural things like fire), your attack can be grabbed, you activate damage shields, etc...

So how is someone with Ranged attacks and someone with No Range Attacks, but far movement comparable?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Lim Value: 'Only to increase throwing distance'

 

Flying allows you to add your Speed to damage and has a lot of secondary uses.

 

All of which are equally available whether or not you have ranged attacks. In fact, I can use Multiple Power Attacks to use my non-ranged ranged attacks in combination with velocity-augmented STR.

 

And like any melee combatant' date=' speedster or someone with stretching you would have to cross the area of continous/uncontrolled AOE's (inclduing natural things like fire), your attack can be grabbed, you activate damage shields, etc...[/quote']

 

Yes, I do. Regardless of whether I have a slow movement speed that substantially lowers my choice of targets, or even ability to target anyone, or have a movement speed that allows me to choose to attack anyone on the field of combat.

 

So how is someone with Ranged attacks and someone with No Range Attacks' date=' but far movement comparable?[/quote']

 

OK, let's explain it slowly for those that don't seem to be able to get it.

 

You assert, above, that STR only for throwing distance will be combined with a -1/4 limitation on all ranged attacks to be based on STR, thus reducing or negating the drawbacks of that particular limitation. Therefore, the limitation for "only for throwing distance" should be smaller due to its potential to offset the drawbacks of another limitation.

 

I submit that this is quite comparable to putting "no range" on all of my ranged attacks and using the point savings to buy higher movement.

 

Let's take a numerical example. Both characters will have a 90 point Multipower of 5 ranged attacks with no limitations.

 

Character A puts "Range based on STR" on his MP, saving 17 points (48 + 5x5 = 73). He spends 15 points on +30 STR, only to throw things and has mitigated the limitation. The limitation isn't gone - max range would have been much higher without the limitation. And I don't find limited max range to be all that helpful unless combined with factors mitigating or eliminating range penalties.

 

Character B puts "No Range"" on his MP and saves 30 points, which he uses to buy +30 meters of his movement power. He has significant mitigated the drawback of having no range by enhancing his movement - he can close 15 meters more than Character A in a half move.

 

To beat the point further, both characters have placed a limitation on their attacks which is largely mitigated by an investment of their character points in something else. Hence I see a valid comparison.

 

If I, as a GM, am going to do anything, it would be to adjust the value of the limitation for that specific character only based on the fact that his other abilities offset it somewhat. So maybe I look at Character A and compare max useful range based on STR to max useful unlimited range, and decide he doesn't get the -1/4 limitation. More likely, I make a quick note to ensure we see some STR drains, suppresses, etc. to highlight this character's unusual power structure and, at the same time, ensure the limitation occasionally comes into play.

 

Almost certainly, I ask why this character is able to use his STR only for throwing distance, with no other effects. Mechanics don't stand alone - what are we simulating? But the character could have had +30 STR with a lot more utility unlimited. All this does is enhance range on some powers - no Grabs, Escapes, HTH damage, entangle breaking, lift, etc. So it should be much cheaper than STR that's fully useful.

 

I also note "Range based on STR" does not scale for the actual STR of the character - it's -1/4 if your STR is 8, or 80. Why is it -1/4? Because it's better than "no range", so it must be less than -1/2, and it's limiting compared to normal range. There are pretty limited choices between 0 and 1/2.

[Christopher]

Re: Lim Value: 'Only to increase throwing distance'

 

You assert' date=' above, that STR only for throwing distance will be combined with a -1/4 limitation on all ranged attacks to be based on STR, thus reducing or negating the drawbacks of that particular limitation. Therefore, the limitation for "only for throwing distance" should be smaller due to its potential to offset the drawbacks of another limitation.[/quote']

When you think -1 is suiteable only for someone who has a lot of Range based on STR, then what do you think is the value for someone who has no other way than the normal Throwing Maneuver to use it?

So far I only heard "-1 is to less", but not how much it should be in your book.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Lim Value: 'Only to increase throwing distance'

 

If I rely solely on the Limited Power limitation, it would cap at -2. Given most uses of STR are eliminated, that seems a reasonable value to place on the construct.

 

KEPT: Distance thrown

 

LOST: Lift, HTH damage, HTH knockback, Grab, Hold, Shove, Resist all the above, Break from Grab; Break entangle, Throwing damage, probably other benefits I am overlooking

[Christopher]

Re: Lim Value: 'Only to increase throwing distance'

 

Since your Limitation tend to have twice the value of my Limitation values, I think we see it at the same severity.

We simply apply different values for that specefic severity.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Lim Value: 'Only to increase throwing distance'

 

So, if STR only to enhance throwing distance is a -1 limitation, what else would the character have to give up, in your view, to merit a -2 limitation (ie virtually all utility lost)?

 

Further curiosity - what proportion of powers in your game have "limited power" type limitations? That is, limitations without a fixed value set in the rules, where your judgement determines the level of limitation/extent of points saved?

[Christopher]

Re: Lim Value: 'Only to increase throwing distance'

 

So, if STR only to enhance throwing distance is a -1 limitation, what else would the character have to give up, in your view, to merit a -2 limitation (ie virtually all utility lost)?

 

Further curiosity - what proportion of powers in your game have "limited power" type limitations? That is, limitations without a fixed value set in the rules, where your judgement determines the level of limitation/extent of points saved?

I am irritated here. I accept your point of view, but you still try to change my point of view.

 

Why?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Lim Value: 'Only to increase throwing distance'

 

You asked what limitation I would place on the ability.

 

I asked what additional restrictions you would require to place a higher limitation on the ability.

 

I don't see the two as all that different.

 

And my further curiosity simply attempts to measure whether my expected response from players is backed up or refuted by your practical experience.

[Christopher]

Re: Lim Value: 'Only to increase throwing distance'

 

And my further curiosity simply attempts to measure whether my expected response from players is backed up or refuted by your practical experience.

We already have set our points view. And nothing that one side say can change that.

 

So, what is the point of continuing this discussion?