The Force

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The Force

 

That sure is a lot of points for a Lightsaber.

 

Not when compared to the Energy Sword from the 5e Star Hero (page 148).

It's built on 117 real points!

[whitekeys]

Re: The Force

 

Interesting that you threw in "Area of Effect" in the second post. So that basically means that it can't be avoided, except when using the Dive For Cover maneouvre, but it also has the Limitation Can Be Deflected, so any special effect represented by the Deflection Power (such as another lightsaber) could block it.

 

That would also mean that the character's only have to hit DCV 3 to target an opponent. But you can target a character with an Area of Effect, couldn't you? To be honest, I'm not sure what that's accomplished. We already seemed to have solved most of the real issues by choosing AVAD. This blockable/unblockable is a non-issue for me. I'm simply going to adjudicate on a case-by-case basis, given special effects, common sense, and dramatic sense. And don't forget game balance. I do appreciate the effort though.

 

I think the next big one is going to be Telekinesis. I'll start working on it, but suggestions are welcome.

 

I've also been thinking of Christopher's suggestion of making categorizing all Force powers into the Mental Power Category, making them all goverened by those rules. I just read the first part in the Powers chapter, and it got me thinking. Effecting how Force Powers are sensed, what type of Action they are, etc.

[whitekeys]

Re: The Force

 

Force Speed: +4 SPD (40 Active Points); Requires Force Roll (-½), Variable Limitation (-1/2 worth of Limitations; -1/4)(16 Real Points)

 

Force Body: +20 END (4 Active Points); Requires Force Roll (-½), Variable Limitation (-1/2 worth of Limitations; -1/4)(2 Real Points)

 

Art of Movement: +2 Acrobatics plus +2 Breakfall (8 Active Points); Requires Force Roll (-½), Variable Limitation (-1/2 worth of Limitations; -1/4)(4 Real Points)

 

These are all skills acquired by learning the ways of the Force, and they're evoked using the Force (hence Required Roll). The Variable Limitation is for the PC to be able to choose either Concentration, or Costs Endurance, both of which effectively convert these to Constant Powers, rather than having a Persisten effect. Required Roll also has this effect. The PCs can choose for themselves which skills they think have been trained in, as well as the value of these skills/characteristics. But the general mechanic of turning these into Constant powers, rather than Persistent, works? Someone mentioned Aid, but that requires an Attack Action, and so would be almost useless to the Jedi.

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Force

 

Why not just use Nonpersistent (-1/4) (6E1CC p. 373) if the type of Requires a Roll Limitation you have used does not do a good enough job?

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Force

 

Quite true.

 

Ultimately, though, it's about how Whitekeys wants them to work in his game, not about how they would work in your game, mine or George Lucas'. And Whitekeys seems to want Real Weapon.

Oh, quite true. That's actually why I suggested a compromise solution: include the Limitation, but reduce its value because many of the normal interpretations of, "Real Weapon," may not apply to a lightsaber, such as not being able to chop down doors with it or block unusual attacks.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The Force

 

re: AOE 1 Hex Accurate and HTH attacks

 

5e Ultimate Martial Artist suggests allowing a Dodge Bonus to apply to the base 3 DCV a target would otherwise have. So if a character has skill levels that can apply to dodge (Like Overall or all Combat) they could still present a decent DCV vs this attack. Block with another Lightsaber or other 'plasma' weapon is still possible as well.

 

Another positive consequence is to give attempts at multiple attacks vs. droids while using a Lightsaber a real chance for success without the need for a crazy amount of CSL's.

How often do we ever see any Lightsaber using character in the movies ever actually miss with the weapon vs. a target not who is either also using a Lightsaber to block or is an unarmed Jedi with crazy dodging skill?

[Starcloud]

Re: The Force

 

Not often, but then again in the movies we mostly saw dedicated Jedi who had several years of training with the Lightsaber. Added to that is the Force; I suspect in Hero terms, every Jedi who wasn't a reject or a child, has several CSLs based on the precognition that the Force seems to grant.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The Force

 

Not often...

 

Even Luke, the most inexperienced Jedi of all shown in film, never misses with a lightsaber vs. a physical object.

My approach has no effect on a Block/Deflection attempt since they target an attack's OCV which arguably isn't being reduced by the AEO 1 Hex Accurate.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Force

 

Even Luke' date=' the most inexperienced Jedi of all shown in film, [u']never[/u] misses with a lightsaber vs. a physical object.

My approach has no effect on a Block/Deflection attempt since they target an attack's OCV which arguably isn't being reduced by the AEO 1 Hex Accurate.

 

I think that most characters seldom miss mooks, because of the OCV/DCV spread. With the exception of Jedi/other Lightsaber weilders and mooks, who does Luke (or any other Jedi) fight in lightsaber combat? Mooks have lousy DCV, so the Jedi always hits. But Obi has a tough time with Jango Fett.

 

One of the problems with ligthtsabers (and SW universe in general) in games is that the lightsaber, and the Jedi, tend to get heavily beefed up in the game system, such that other character types are relegated to sidekick status. In a combat-heavy game, what does Han Solo have to compete with the Jedi lightsaber?

 

If they're that good, and the only impediment to their use is that they require WF and a 14 - 18 STR, why doesn't everyone use them? We can expand training of their use in military academies. So your STR is a bit light - a 2 point level or two will take care of that OCV penalty. And, of course, you'll still have that Imperial Rifle when the lightsaber is less useful.

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Force

 

Even Luke' date=' the most inexperienced Jedi of all shown in film, [u']never[/u] misses with a lightsaber vs. a physical object.

My approach has no effect on a Block/Deflection attempt since they target an attack's OCV which arguably isn't being reduced by the AEO 1 Hex Accurate.

I believe he might have missed a time or two in Empire Strikes Back when Vader was hurling object after object at him in the bowels of Cloud City....

[whitekeys]

Re: The Force

 

Why not just use Nonpersistent (-1/4) (6E1CC p. 373) if the type of Requires a Roll Limitation you have used does not do a good enough job?

I very well could have. I was aware of the option, but I had envisioned utilizing the aforementioned Limitations (that effectively result in the same thing as Nonpersistent) as a game-balancing tactic. I could foresee over use of Force powers, for free, if there wasn't some other penalty associated with it. Indeed, the Jedi seem to have free use of their force powers in the movies, but I suspect that there's quite a bit of concentration under their finely crafted light-side veneer. Nonpersistent just didn't seem to be the right thing.

[whitekeys]

Re: The Force

 

I believe he might have missed a time or two in Empire Strikes Back when Vader was hurling object after object at him in the bowels of Cloud City....

Yaaa... about that. I was wondering why Jedi don't psychokinetically grab each other, and throw each other, or punch each other. Does that happen? Does Darth Maul do that to Obi-Wan, or Qui-gon? Other than the video games, how often does that happen?

 

You see, I was thinking about TK. With the 6E suggestion of making TK actually Psychokinesis by applying the Advantage ACV (OMCV vs. DCV; +0), making it a mental attack. This is in keeping with Christpher's suggestion of making Force Powers = Mental Powers. There's also the option of applying the Advantage Works Against EGO, not STR (+1/4), which allows character to resist, or break free, of psychokinetic Grabs with an EGO roll.

 

So here are my thoughts. Realistically, a Jedi's psychokinetic STR is going to be quite high, given the large objects they are capable of lifting. I was thinking 60 is reasonable, but obviously could be higher. Given that, a psychokinetic punch is going to pack quite a wallop, and I see no reason for a character, who's paid points for the STR, to reduce its power in order to maintain some semblance of 'realism' (e.g. not blowing the head off of your opponent with a simple Force Push). I think the best way of representing a Force Push would be to have the characters make Grabs with their psychokinesis. Since the Squeeze, Slam and Throw are done as immediate attacks in the same segment, it would be easy to imagine the target simply being pushed by the psychokinetic force. Furthermore, since the obvious maneouvre to use would be the Throw, it would reduce the amount of damage done and give the target a chance to resist with their EGO roll. This opportunity to resist would lend a fair amount of game balance to the campaign, seeing as how it would be rather unbalancing for a character to Grab and Throw any Jedi they came across, and vice versa. It would also provide a better reason for characters to use less of their STR to Grab and Throw a target given END costs; whereas straight up punches are good for all-out attacks, since your aim is to hurt/kill, a Grab and Throw has a different purpose, perhaps not needing as much STR.

 

Come to think of it, 60 STR seems like a lot. I'm trying to decide how often full 60 STR might be used in order to pick something up, or otherwise move it. It seems more reasonable to choose a much lower STR, for cost purposes, and for game balance. Any thoughts, or other suggestions? The other option would be to tailor certain Power entried to specific uses of Force Telekinesis, but I'm not sure if that would cost more or less. For example, any Grabbed character could potentially be thrown in any direction, but we could add Only to Push (-1) to make a Force Push, with a commensurate amount of STR to attain the desired effect of pushing the target.

 

Force Psychokinesis: Telekinesis (STR 34), ACV (OMCV against DCV; +0)(51 Active Points); Affects Whole Object (-1/4), Requires Force Roll (-1/2), Works Against EGO, not STR (-1/4)(25 Real Points)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The Force

 

 

Force Psychokinesis: Telekinesis (STR 34), ACV (OMCV against DCV; +0)(51 Active Points); Affects Whole Object (-1/4), Requires Force Roll (-1/2), Works Against EGO, not STR (-1/4)(25 Real Points)

 

As built, I am pretty sure this is still visible to normal senses (besides mental).

I built it with IPO for this reason.

Mental Awareness (not sure if Targeting would be required) would allow them to block such an attack.

 

Darth Maul does make a Force shove/throw vs. the Jedi in episode I.

[whitekeys]

Re: The Force

 

Given that both a) defining Telekinesis Power as "psychokinesis" and the house rule regarding Force powers is that they're all in the Mental Power Category, the power entry that I gave would not be perceivable: "Mental Powers are ordinarily Invisible (even if they also belong to a perceivable category, such as Attack Powers). Only the character using one, his target, and any character with Mental Awareness (6E1 211) can perceive them. See 6E1 159 for more information." Characters with Mental Awareness, which very well could be all Jedi, could perceive this power as long as it is used within their line of sight, possibly further, at the discretion of the GM. I'm not sure how you concluded that characters with Mental Awareness could block Mental attacks. Can you explain?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The Force

 

... I'm not sure how you concluded that characters with Mental Awareness could block Mental attacks. Can you explain?

 

Mental Awareness - means its perceivable.

OMCV against DCV; +0 - just means that the attacker uses their OMCV for the attack roll. The defender that can perceive the attack can make a Block attempt. It does not make the attack un-Blockable. That would require additional advantages like Indirect (the way Flails are built to bypass a Shield's DCV bonus).

[whitekeys]

Re: The Force

 

My next wondering is on the defensive capabilities of the lightsaber. It seems as though it's already sufficient, given the rules for Block. Deflection seems typical, but also uselss: it's purely a rule for Blocking at range, which is never done, given the hand-to-hand nature.

[Starcloud]

Re: The Force

 

The one time we see Jedi using TK against each other is in the duel between Obi-Wan and Anakin/Vader. It resulted in a clash of powers with them both getting thrown apart in the end.

[whitekeys]

Re: The Force

 

Mental Awareness - means its perceivable.

OMCV against DCV; +0 - just means that the attacker uses their OMCV for the attack roll. The defender that can perceive the attack can make a Block attempt. It does not make the attack un-Blockable. That would require additional advantages like Indirect (the way Flails are built to bypass a Shield's DCV bonus).

Right! I totally spaced on the definition of "block", forgetting it was one of the combat maneuvres. So shall I apply the Area of Effect advantage, or the AVAD (Force resistance) advantage?