The Force

[Christopher]

Re: The Force

 

You could go pretty crazy with the Detects' date=' like Detect: Minds, Discriminatory, which is basically mind scan.[/quote']

A Mind Scan that is still missing: Range, Increase arc of perception and Megascale (Minds Scan "is automatically considered to have MegaScale at the +1¼ level") and Targetting for something like the EGO+20 Result.

 

At least in 6E I considered Building a Lightsaber (or general Plasma Attacks) with HKA, Penetarting.

According to 6E1 150 Plasma, Laser, Acetylene and Oxy-Hidrogen Fire is a KA, Armor Piercing.

When you need penetrating for soemthing else (Energy Based. the Physical Penetration is stil availible), give the Light-Sabers double Penetration (to simulate that they cut even better).

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: The Force

 

Nice work on the Lightsaber, but I think it could be streamlined a bit; if STR doesn't add damage and you can always pull it back to your hand, it is just an RKA with the special effect of being a energy sword. Remove the OAF limitation and make it Restrainable (-½) to represent the fact a Jedi can be disarmed.

 

There is no need for Constant. That is for continuing effects like acid or poison or something. Most anything else can be represented by a series of discrete hits.

 

Finally, in 6e Armor Piercing is only a +¼ advantage instead of +½.

[Starcloud]

Re: The Force

 

It's a Focus. Lightsabers CAN be destroyed and lost or out of range of TK.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: The Force

 

Good point. A Focus then, but make it OIF instead of OAF to represent the fact it is hard to take away and keep away.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The Lightsaber!

 

I'm proud of this one guys, but don't be shy in critiquing.

 

Lightsaber: Hand Killing Attack 4d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Armour Piercing (+1/2)(120 Active Points); OAF (Lightsaber; -1), Decreased Stun Multiplier (-2; -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/2), No STR Bonus (-1/2), DEX Minimum (15, Cannot add Damage; -1¼)(25 Real Points) plus Ranged Based On Strength (+1/4), Constant (-1/2) for HKA based on 120 Active Points (30 Active Points); OAF (-1), Decreased STUN Multiplier (-2, -1/2), No STR Bonus (-1/2)(10 Real Points) Total Cost: 35 Points

 

Lightsaber Return: Telekinesis 1 STR (2 Active Points); Only works on Lightsaber (-1), Linked (Lightsaber Throw; -1/2), Extra Time (Extra Segment; -1/2)(1 Real Point)

 

Only problem might be the Constant advantage on the Ranged ability. This is representing the fact that a Jedi can hold his lightsaber at range, using the Force (or at least so has been depicted in various videogames). But, really, the exact rules regarding Constant powers aren't quite consisten with a single lightsaber attack. However, assuming Linked works like I think, the Telekinesis must be used, effectively stopping the Constant power. Besides, most people will be dead after a hit with this things, anyway, requiring the Power be activated again at a different target.

 

I'm a little iffy on the DEX minimum (especially at the -1 1/4 value).

It's just a rare weapon familiarity. If you want to represent how dangerous it is to use in unfamiliar hands put a -0 side effects limitation for botched/critical-failure (roll an 18 to hit/block) loses grip or hits self with blade.

 

Without some form of Constant on the base power it's not possible to slowly cut through blast doors like Rob Roy/Qui Gon Jinn did in episode I.

 

Nothing in this build prevents someone with a non-plasma or shielded weapon (like a simple metal pipe) from simply blocking an attack (that requires some form of Damage Shield).

 

Why is Constant being displayed as a limitation (-1/2) on the TK portion?

Why is the TK just for the lightsaber?

[whitekeys]

Re: The Force

 

Nice work on the Lightsaber, but I think it could be streamlined a bit; if STR doesn't add damage and you can always pull it back to your hand, it is just an RKA with the special effect of being a energy sword. Remove the OAF limitation and make it Restrainable (-½) to represent the fact a Jedi can be disarmed.

 

There is no need for Constant. That is for continuing effects like acid or poison or something. Most anything else can be represented by a series of discrete hits.

 

Finally, in 6e Armor Piercing is only a +¼ advantage instead of +½.

 

Starcloud is correct, in my opinion, although you do make a good point. OIF is also not correct, because it could be taken away, despite the fact that it would be hard. Given the campaign standard for Jedi powers, it might be more likely than you think for losing a lightsaber. It's not like Fantasy warriors loose their swords all that often, especially when they're holding them, so I disagree. For Constant, I agree with you, but Hyperman also makes a good point about cutting through things slowly. Could you explain more about continuing effects, keeping in mind this is 6E? Armour Piercing has been purchased twice, to offset levels of Hardened that other characters have purchased for their armour - it's the correct value.

 

I'm a little iffy on the DEX minimum (especially at the -1 1/4 value).

It's just a rare weapon familiarity. If you want to represent how dangerous it is to use in unfamiliar hands put a -0 side effects limitation for botched/critical-failure (roll an 18 to hit/block) loses grip or hits self with blade.

I disagree. I've simply replaced STR with DEX, utilizing all the same rules; it's been purchased at the correct value. An arbalest might be a rare weapon familiarity, but it still has a STR minimum. The opportunity for someone to critically miss and hurt themselves is present with any weapon, without an extra limitation. Since the rules for STR Minimum state that it is the minimum required strength to wield it effectively, not simply pick it up, I feel it's not too far-out to replace it with DEX; OCV Penalties are proportional to skill, etc. You might even replace this with EGO for mental powers/sentient magical weapons, or INT for high-tech weapons that are hooked directly to the synapses in your brain. Frankly, no offense to Steve, of course, but I'm surprised he didn't make mention of replacing STR with something else in the rulebook. Unless he did, and I missed it.

 

Nothing in this build prevents someone with a non-plasma or shielded weapon (like a simple metal pipe) from simply blocking an attack (that requires some form of Damage Shield).

What do you mean by this? Am I missing something, or is this good?

 

Why is Constant being displayed as a limitation (-1/2) on the TK portion?

Why is the TK just for the lightsaber?

Typo; I've changed the calculations: 30 points, total cost 55 Points. 2nd: The TK Power is representative of pulling the lightsaber back after having thrown it. It's Linked to the lightsaber because it's just for pulling it back after throwing: It must be used. Using telekinesis on your lightsaber in other cirumstances will be a regular TK Power that I haven't built yet.

 

Thanks for the feedback and compliments!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The Force

 

Is this for a supers (pay for equipment) or heroic (equipment is free) campaign?

 

edit

must be heroic as STR minimum is not an option for superheroic.

 

Here's my take on your numbers (plus Penetrating). Increasing the DC's makes more sense in 6e since the damage adding rules are prorated for everything (including Martial Arts bonuses).

 

42 Lightsaber for 6e: (Total: 202 Active Cost, 42 Real Cost) Swing/Thrust: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Armor Piercing (x2; +1/2), Penetrating (x2; +1) (90 Active Points); Requires A Roll (Characteristic roll; Must be made each Phase/use; -1), OAF (-1), STR Minimum 14-18 (-3/4), -2 Decreased STUN Multiplier (-1/2), No STR Bonus (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 17) plus Touch: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6, Area Of Effect (1m Surface; Offensive Damage Shield - Only vs targets touching blade; +1/4), Armor Piercing (x2; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Constant (+1/2), Penetrating (x2; +1) (112 Active Points); OAF (-1), Requires A Roll (Characteristic roll; Must be made each Phase/use; -1), No Range (-1/2), -2 Decreased STUN Multiplier (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 25)

Powers Cost: 42

 

I figured out what was bothering me with the value of Requires A DEX Roll you were using. By taking the adder to STR Minimum (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage) you were essentially taking No STR Bonus twice. I've separated them out above. No DEX Bonus is a Limitation with zero value since DEX does not add to damage by default. Also note, that since it makes no functional difference if the base power is KA-HTH or KA-Ranged since No STR Bonus & No Range are both (-1/2) Limitations, you can add the damage for both into one 4d6K roll when used as a 'normal' blade in combat.

 

The Touch portion of the build is the main way the blade can be used to cut through blast doors via combination of Constant & Penetrating. The x2 Penetrating means that it does a virtual MINIMUM of 2 BODY vs. any Defenses that lack at least 2 levels of the Impenetrable Advantage. The AoE Surface Offensive Damage Shield is what makes attempting to Block or Bind the Lightsaber with anything other than another Lightsaber an iffy proposition.

[Christopher]

Re: The Force

 

It's a Focus. Lightsabers CAN be destroyed and lost or out of range of TK.

 

Good point. A Focus then' date=' but make it OIF instead of OAF to represent the fact it is hard to take away and keep away.[/quote']

I am against defining them as OIF's. When a normal Picks up a Lightsaber it is not harder to disarm than any other weapon (and there a ways to disarm someone with a two handed sword without need to touch the blade).

 

Nothing in this build prevents someone with a non-plasma or shielded weapon (like a simple metal pipe) from simply blocking an attack (that requires some form of Damage Shield).

It is often said/seen that you cannot block a lightsaber with a "normal" weapon and any normal weapon block by a Lightsaber is also gone, but shielded weapons or plasma weapons (including other lightsaber blades) work.

The "Knights of the Old Republic" gameseries simply stated that "normal" weapons are made with an armor mesh that can withstand lightsabers, but that could have been to avoid logica problems with lightsabers in the gamesystem.

 

There is some merit to making it a Damage Shield with Focus, and under the given SFX it would even be okay if the Damage Shield would be persistant (after all it stays active even if the use is K.O. unless designed with a dead-man's-switch).

If it wasn't for the ability to cut anything used to block against it or that is blocked by it, breaking the door in episode I could be done with Sustained Attack (APG 171).

Especially for the breaking of "Normal" Foci I can only point to 6E Penetrating again. It is ideal to break weak/simple foci with one hit (due to the minimum damage), while a good focus (one for many powers) would be harder to destroy (one with high total damage or many with the minimum damage, each costing one power).

[Christopher]

Re: The Force

 

Just remembered: Damage Shield is the 5E version to do the "cut's when blocked or when used to block". In 6E we have A simple Trigger as naked Advantage for this (asuming a 60 AP HKA, No Str as basis):

Lightsaber Blade: Trigger (Whenever being blocked or used for block; Action that takes no Time; Automatically Resets in no Time; +3/4) for up to 60 AP of attack.

 

Especially when used with penetrating it is expensive, but then again it allows you deter any HTH-martial Artist or Weaponmaster from attacking you, unless he wants to risk his weapon/hand when you block. And unlike a Damage Shield (wich could do the same), it does not endanger people trying to use positive hth-powers (aid, heal) on you.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Force

 

I'm proud of this one guys, but don't be shy in critiquing.

 

Lightsaber: Hand Killing Attack 4d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Armour Piercing (+1/2)(120 Active Points)

 

Why AP? Even double AP? To me, Penetrating better simulates the fact that the Lightsaber can cut through virtually anything, as some BOD from a Penetrating attack gets through every time (absent advantaged defenses - double penetrating can deal with that, or just a campaign rule that the Impenetrable advantage is restricted to SFX that stop lightsabers in the SW universe).

 

OAF (Lightsaber; -1)

it is just an RKA with the special effect of being a energy sword. Remove the OAF limitation and make it Restrainable (-½) to represent the fact a Jedi can be disarmed.

It's a Focus. Lightsabers CAN be destroyed and lost or out of range of TK.

Good point. A Focus then' date=' but make it OIF instead of OAF to represent the fact it is hard to take away and keep away.[/quote']

 

To me, it's an OAF. It can be disarmed, destroyed, etc. Yes, it can be retrieved with Telekinesis. Telekinesis lets you apply STR at range. A character with Stretching, Teleportation or high movement can retrieve a focus more easily too, but they still get the Focus limitation.

 

Decreased Stun Multiplier (-2; -1/2)

 

Does the SW universe even count STUN? How often was anyone knocked out, rather than killed, in the movies? I think a Lightsaber can inflict Stun, but it would be based on hit locations. A head hit is going to kill most targets anyway, so whether they take STUN is irrelevant. An arm or hand hit won't do enough STUN to make STUN the major threat. But this comes down to personal preference more than anything else - I can certainly see a case for a 1x multiple.

 

Real Weapon (-1/2)

 

Not sold on that "real weapon" as I don't recall anything in the source material where this seemed to be an issue. I also think it's specialized gear - it was either made by the Jedi (part of their Jedi training included this) or given to a padawan by their master (Luke by Obi-Wan). They weren't casually picked up and used by non-jedi, like a fallen Stormtrooper's blaster rifle, and they aren't sold in stores. That would mean you buy them with points, not money, much like a Created magic item in Fantasy. I also don't think they are Independent. I can only think of two examples of long-term loss (Anakin lost his ightsaber, and Luke later lost Anakin's lightsaber). In both cases, the characters had new lightsabers after a between-scenes break, so I think they can replace them out of combat as easily as most other technological foci.

 

No STR Bonus (-1/2)

 

Whether an RKA no Range or an HKA no STR Adds, I agree STR does not enhance the damage.

 

DEX Minimum (15' date=' Cannot add Damage; -1¼)(25 Real Points) [/font']

 

I don't buy a DEX min having anything to do with this. I don't know that Han Solo had a DEX lower than 15 to begin with - he was an ace pilot and a pretty good gunfighter (and he shot first - HE SHOT FIRST!), and he had a rough time with the Lightsaber on Hoth. Even if he had a lower DEX, he looked like he'd be down way more than 1 or 2 OCV and Damage Classes if he used the LS in combat. I think it's a Personal Focus (tying back to being purchased with points as signature equipment) with the wrinkle that others who paid for similar equipment could use them effectively.

 

plus Ranged Based On Strength (+1/4)' date='[/quote']

 

I don't buy that one - the Lightsaber was really not an effective thrown weapon. They generally went out if removed from the user's hand (I don't think Luke shut his off as his hand was severed by Vader, or vice versa). That said, I base my assessment on the movies, not video games. Even so, I'd see this as a function of special training by the user (ie a purchased Naked Advantage), and not a basic Lightsaber ability (if it were, one of the Jedi/Sith in the movies would use it).

 

Constant (-1/2) for HKA based on 120 Active Points (30 Active Points)

 

I don't think so. There was never a mobile opponent this was used on. Cutting through a wall can be viewed as SFX ("If you roll an 18 to hit, it doesn't get any BOD through this time." or simply waiving the need to roll to hit a wall).

 

Lightsaber Return: Telekinesis 1 STR (2 Active Points); Only works on Lightsaber (-1)' date=' Linked (Lightsaber Throw; -1/2), Extra Time (Extra Segment; -1/2)(1 Real Point)[/quote']

 

Why? The Jedi pretty much all had TK anyway. 1 STR TK would cost 2 points as the most junior of padawan, 1 point if we make them Gesture and Concentrate (which Luke seemed to do on Dagobah) so why spend 1 point on this?

 

I am against defining them as OIF's. When a normal Picks up a Lightsaber it is not harder to disarm than any other weapon (and there a ways to disarm someone with a two handed sword without need to touch the blade).

 

It is often said/seen that you cannot block a lightsaber with a "normal" weapon and any normal weapon block by a Lightsaber is also gone, but shielded weapons or plasma weapons (including other lightsaber blades) work.

 

Agreed. You don't Block an axe with your arm either.

 

The "Knights of the Old Republic" gameseries simply stated that "normal" weapons are made with an armor mesh that can withstand lightsabers' date=' but that could have been to avoid logica problems with lightsabers in the gamesystem.[/quote']

 

If you want such weapons, they have enough Impenetrable advantage on their defenses to avoid the Penetrating effect of a Lightsaber, and enough defenses not to be cut by them. The game lets me block an axe with a wood quarterstaff too, and you can hack the staff apart pretty quick with an axe.

 

Especially for the breaking of "Normal" Foci I can only point to 6E Penetrating again. It is ideal to break weak/simple foci with one hit (due to the minimum damage)' date=' while a good focus (one for many powers) would be harder to destroy (one with high total damage or many with the minimum damage, each costing one power).[/quote']

 

As noted above, I agree that Penetrating seems more accurate than AP.

[Christopher]

Re: The Force

 

Does the SW universe even count STUN? How often was anyone knocked out' date=' rather than killed, in the movies? I think a Lightsaber can inflict Stun, but it would be based on hit locations. A head hit is going to kill most targets anyway, so whether they take STUN is irrelevant. An arm or hand hit won't do enough STUN to make STUN the major threat. But this comes down to personal preference more than anything else - I can certainly see a case for a 1x multiple.[/quote']

The wound get's cauterized and overall people being hit by lightsabers don't tend to scream much, but there is still the physical shock (wich is also what STUN can represent). Of coruse mostly Jedi's are hit (wich could have a higher pain tolerance in the first palce).

 

I don't buy a DEX min having anything to do with this. I don't know that Han Solo had a DEX lower than 15 to begin with - he was an ace pilot and a pretty good gunfighter (and he shot first - HE SHOT FIRST!)' date=' and he had a rough time with the Lightsaber on Hoth.[/quote']

He also missed the Weapon Proficiency (-3 OCV) and is naturally very carefull while wielding a focussed plasma torch (like most peolpe are with normal high temperature things).

 

I don't buy that one - the Lightsaber was really not an effective thrown weapon.

Vader did it, but I would just make the "Throw" as a Use of Telekinesis. The same time teh TK-STR also "holds down" any dead-man's-switch that would disable the lightsaber normally.

After all I can wield a normal sword with TK too, so the limited options (throw direct or fetch) could be better as Limitations on the TK.

 

Telekinesis:

At least 3 STR without any special Limitations should be okay. A knight should have enough to casually fetch his lightsaber without problems.

Higher amounts of TK-STR could be limited seperately. You have perhaps 6 TK-Str Normally, with another 24 with Concentration throughout and Increased Endurance Cost.

Generaly it should never have Fine Manipulation and always "Affects Whole Body" and maybe "only to shove or fetch" (directly away or direclty towards you).

 

Agreed. You don't Block an axe with your arm either.

[...]

The game lets me block an axe with a wood quarterstaff too, and you can hack the staff apart pretty quick with an axe.

But it is true that most normal weapon have a surface that is non-damaging. Blocking does not mean to Parry the blade with your blade and exercise enough force to stop the attack (you can, but that is the last thing you should do).

Instead you just redirect his attack enough that it misses you. Japanese Samurai Fighting and Fencing are good examples of "redirect, not parry". The problem is that lightsaber don't even have enough non-damaging surface for this.

You can "block" a sword by sideways against the blade it with your upper arm (of coruse, that is difficulty: up to -3 penalty), the same way you could redirect a axe by exersings force agaisnt the non-blade surfaces with a staff. A light saber lacks this. You can't block it without touching the blade (better try a Held Action to Shove/Pushback[APG 176] the enemy).

 

If you want such weapons' date=' they have enough Impenetrable advantage on their defenses to avoid the Penetrating effect of a Lightsaber, and enough defenses not to be cut by them.[/quote']

Mostly that was so the game would not be cloged down. Since KoToR is based on Star Wars D&D wich counts armor for to Hit Rolls, it was easier to just make the Lightsaber high Damage and declare most things Lightsaber-proof.

Also: From a system Standpoint, any Amount of Impenetrable defenses Blocks a Penetrating totally.

2 ED, Impenetrable counters the single level of penetrating from a 60 AP Attack totally (it only does damage normally). Unless the GM thinks it should be more/closer to each other AP wise.

[Starcloud]

Re: The Force

 

A lightsaber is a Real Weapon. It can run out of power. It requires maintenance and can be harmed by the elements; you'll notice that Obi-Wan didn't have his lightsaber out to deflect the blasts from the tank as he was being chased on Naboo. A cut scene has Qui-Gon chiding Obi-Wan for not taking the time to dry his saber out after it got dunked. It can be picked up and used by other people. It can be traded to other people.

 

You don't see the mundane things like caring for the Lightsaber or watching Jedi take the time to recharge it in the movies, because it's not relevant to the action or the plot.

[whitekeys]

Re: The Force

 

The initial thought on Armour Piercing vs. Penetrating was the there are weapons in existence that block lightsaber, completely. Even some that cause lightsabers to short-out when they come in contact. I think we're all forgetting the campaign setting: The Jedi PCs are not going to be engaged in hand to hand combat with enemies wielding either wooden or metal weapons. The point is almost moot. If HTH combat is to happen, it's going to be against enemies wielding either lightsabers, or lightsaber-equivalent hand-held weapons (like electrostaffs). The real question here should pretain to armour worn by the enemies. Penetrating could work, but there again, there are common (not really that common) armours that block completely, or otherwise are resistant to lightsaber attacks (like cortosis, or some energy shields). I thought it would be better to go with Armour piercing: it was effective, and applied in more circumstances. Even further to the argument, "cutting through" is a special effect. Depending on the way the defense power is constructed, you're either going to cause damage to the target anyway (by doing more BODY damage than it protects) or you're only going to cause BODY damage to the defense itself. Given the above examples, I'm going to stick with Armour Piercing for now, and I will play test it in the future. Penetrating is definitely still an option. (What about both? lol)

 

Hyper-Man, I like your Damage Shield suggestion. I was unfamiliar with that rule. But Christopher's suggestions is also good (despite high cost). Given the above discourse on lightsaber resistant weapons/armour, and the simple fact that HTH combat is going to be rare, what do think? I'd also have to mention that Blocking a Penetrating attack renders the attack a miss, does it not? That wouldn't give damage. The special effects should guide the outcomes of such circumstances.

 

Hyper-Man also brings up the question of Heroic vs. Superheroic campaigns. I can't say that I'm wholly into the idea of limiting the scope of the campaign by filing it into one of these categories. There are just too many instances where I feel that the standard rules for each of these types of campaigns are mixed and blurred together to get what I want. I'm opting to not consider it. If you have questions on which rules I'm using and which not, ask, preferrably in a PM.

 

The STUN rules exist, and I'm going to use them: that warrants the value of the limitation. Real Weapon is a rule that I'm choosing to emply. Starcloud has explained it nicely I'm starting to see your point on adding damage with STR, but I'm confused by your DEX Mininum example. You seemed to say it wasn't a legit rule, but then gave a good example of someone not being able to utilize the weapon effectively beacuse of their low DEX. Either way, I'm open to scrapping this rule, but how shall we represent this skill? I like Personal Focus. I could easily say that the adega crystal is linked to a particular Jedi, and foreign force-sensitives are incapable of channeling their force powers through it, rendering it useless (or less effective). How does that sound?

[whitekeys]

Updated Lightsaber

 

Lightsaber: Hand Killing Attack 2d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Armour Piercing (x2; +1/2), Penetrating (x2; +1)(90 Active Points); OAF (Personal Lightsaber; -1), Decreased Stun Multiplier (-2; -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/2), No STR Bonus (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4)(24 Real Points) plus Ranged Based On Strength (+1/4), Constant (+1/2) for HKA based on 90 Active Points (67 Active Points); OAF (-1), Decreased STUN Multiplier (-2, -1/2), No STR Bonus (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4)(18 Real Points) Total Cost: 42 Points

 

Lightsaber Return: Telekinesis 1 STR (2 Active Points); Only works on Lightsaber (-1), Linked (Lightsaber Throw; -1/2), Extra Time (Extra Segment; -1/2)(1 Real Point)

 

I'm not 100% sold on the Damage Shield. It says it takes a Zero Phase action to activate (when appropriate), so can you indeed use both powers, Ranged and HTH, at the same time, to make a HTH attack? The only reason I wouldn't take this is because, if you were prevented for as-yet-undecided reason from using the Ranged Killing Attack, your attacks would be reduced to only 2d6 in damage. Further, the Damage Shield doesn't apply when the PC makes the attack. Does the shield only apply to the Focus (Lightsaber), or does it come from the focus and applies to the whole character?

 

What were you really trying to represent with the Damage Shield? I ask because I stated in my last post that characters are not going to be hit with melee weapons made of simple metal or wood. You mentioned blocking as well, but the same applies, in addition to the fact that Blocks produce missed attacks, and Penetrating doesn't come into the equation until you're rolling Damage Dice. It's still a great idea, but I need a little further explanation.

 

Other powers:

 

Force Blinding: Flash 2d6, Area of Effect (32m cone; +3/4)(17 Active Points); Requires Force Roll (-1/2)(11 Real Points)

 

Droid Disable: Mental Blast 4d6, Does BODY (+1), Double Knockback (+1/2)(100 Active Points); Requires Force Roll (-1/2), Only Affects Machines (-1)(40 Real Points) [This is more for fun, really (remember VPP, so points don't matter). The only other way I could think to represent this is somehow doing damage with TK.]

 

Detoxify Poison: Healing (BODY) 1d6, Expanded Effect (Three; +1), Variable Effect (Poisons, +½)(25 Active Points); Requires Force Roll (-½), Concentration (Half DCV; -¼), Extra time (1 Minute; -1½), Only Works on Poisons (-2)(5 Real Points)

[dmjalund]

Re: The Force

 

The Jedi PCs are not going to be engaged in hand to hand combat with enemies wielding either wooden or metal weapons.

They might if they encounter Mandaloreans

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The Force

 

The 'Damage Shield' is what makes the Lightsaber blade damage nearly any material that it comes in even casual contact with (Han using it to slice open the tauntaun in ESB). It's not requiring a STR minimum, weapon familiarity or even an 'attack action' in certain situations for it to come into effect. Since 6e folded Damage Shield into the AOE umbrella of effects via surface I think a -0 Limitation describing exactly what it applies to (the blade) is all the description that is necessary in the build. Any further detail in the build would require splitting it out as a Naked Advantage so you could put specific Limitations on just that Advantage. The same applies to using the Personal Immunity Advantage. I don't think the extra effort would be worth it. Everyone knows that lightsabers are blocked by other lightsabers and force fields. The later just requires building force fields with enough points of defense, hardened and impenetrable.

 

re: the Block maneuver

There have been many threads on this subject in the past with heated opinions.

Mine is that a character's method of Blocking (martial or normal) should be defined as hard or soft at character creation. "Hard" blocks can be used with weapons (a classic parry) whereas a "soft" block can be defined as literally avoiding all contact with the attack which then logically means a HTH weapon's OCV shouldn't be able to increase the chance of success. Characters can always purchase multiple styles of martial blocks to get around this of course (but additional points ARE being spent then).

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Force

 

I would certainly lower the value of Real Weapon to -0 for lightsabers. While it my be true that they have to be charged and such, there's very little they can't do as a weapon given the Star Wars mythos and the nature of the blade. In fact, removing or reducing the value of Real Weapon might account for the ability to essentially chop down doors when many other weapons cannot, even without Advantages like Penetrating. It could also explain the ability to block other lightsabers when most weapons cannot.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Force

 

A lightsaber is a Real Weapon. It can run out of power. It requires maintenance and can be harmed by the elements; you'll notice that Obi-Wan didn't have his lightsaber out to deflect the blasts from the tank as he was being chased on Naboo. A cut scene has Qui-Gon chiding Obi-Wan for not taking the time to dry his saber out after it got dunked. It can be picked up and used by other people. It can be traded to other people.

 

You don't see the mundane things like caring for the Lightsaber or watching Jedi take the time to recharge it in the movies, because it's not relevant to the action or the plot.

 

That seems to indicate it won't be relevant to the game if it follows the movies' lead, which means it isn't a limitation. Green Lantern's ring needs regular recharging. It's about as far from a "real weapon as you can get.

 

I would certainly lower the value of Real Weapon to -0 for lightsabers. While it my be true that they have to be charged and such' date=' there's very little they can't do as a weapon given the Star Wars mythos and the nature of the blade. In fact, removing or reducing the value of [i']Real Weapon[/i] might account for the ability to essentially chop down doors when many other weapons cannot, even without Advantages like Penetrating. It could also explain the ability to block other lightsabers when most weapons cannot.

 

Quite true.

 

Ultimately, though, it's about how Whitekeys wants them to work in his game, not about how they would work in your game, mine or George Lucas'. And Whitekeys seems to want Real Weapon.

 

The initial thought on Armour Piercing vs. Penetrating was the there are weapons in existence that block lightsaber' date=' completely. Even some that cause lightsabers to short-out when they come in contact.[/quote']

 

Really, that suggests an NND that Does BOD, doesn't it? Either it is fully effective, or not effective at all. If you want to match the source material, the lightsaber's damage has to be set based on many other parameters. Most notably, it must be fairly easily capable of killing a character with one shot, particularly Droids who are routinely sliced in half in the Prequels and Clone Wars material.

 

I think we're all forgetting the campaign setting: The Jedi PCs are not going to be engaged in hand to hand combat with enemies wielding either wooden or metal weapons. The point is almost moot. If HTH combat is to happen' date=' it's going to be against enemies wielding either lightsabers, or lightsaber-equivalent hand-held weapons (like electrostaffs). [/quote']

 

That doesn't sound a lot like the source material. The Jedi routinely engaged in HTH combat against stormtroopers, droids, etc. They didn't even carry ranged weapons (though they did have their TK, but that seemed mostly used at pretty close range). The Lightsaber was an effective substitute for a ranged weapon, blocking for a phase or two which typically gave the Jedi time to close into HTH range,

 

The real question here should pretain to armour worn by the enemies. Penetrating could work' date=' but there again, there are common (not really that common) armours that block completely, or otherwise are resistant to lightsaber attacks (like cortosis, or some energy shields).[/quote']

 

Again, "blocks completely" screams "AVAD", especially when many armors, like Stormtrooper armor and Battledroid armor seemed useless against lightsabers.

 

Probably the most crucial rule to this discussion is whether lightsabers are free gear or paid for with points. If the latter (or even if the requirements to use a lightsaber are expensive and not very useful on their own), and HTH combat is rare, it may be a poor investment of points, rendering a Jedi a poor character choice. If the former, then non-Jedi can access and use lightsabers - it's just another gear choice - although they may have to meet prerequisites (that Han didn't meet, clearly!) to use them effectively.

 

Lightsaber: Hand Killing Attack 2d6' date=' Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Armour Piercing (x2; +1/2), Penetrating (x2; +1)(90 Active Points); OAF (Personal Lightsaber; -1), Decreased Stun Multiplier (-2; -1/2), Real Weapon (-1/2), No STR Bonus (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4)(24 Real Points) [/font']plus Ranged Based On Strength (+1/4), Constant (+1/2) for HKA based on 90 Active Points (67 Active Points); OAF (-1), Decreased STUN Multiplier (-2, -1/2), No STR Bonus (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4)(18 Real Points) Total Cost: 42 Points

 

Lightsaber Return: Telekinesis 1 STR (2 Active Points); Only works on Lightsaber (-1), Linked (Lightsaber Throw; -1/2), Extra Time (Extra Segment; -1/2)(1 Real Point)

 

Why pay for this if you already have TK? In any case, the Lightsaber Throw is defined as Ranged - it doesn't take the power away, so the Saber should return automatically. Meanwhile, this doesn't allow Luke to Telekinetically call his Saber to him from the floor of the Wampa cave, as he didn't use the Linked throw.

 

With the damage now 2d6, Droids need half their rDEF plus all their BOD of 7 or less to be taken down in one shot, and that assumes 0 BOD = destroyed for this purpose. Maybe that's OK - they don't seem to weather blaster hits very well either. But cutting Obi in half means he has little BOD, or it takes multiple phases. What are the odds of a "Disabling arm hit" with a 2d6 roll? If you use APG, the second AP could halve defenses again, which might help if you give these mooks higher defenses and lower BOD. Major characters didn't take serious lightsaber damage with any frequency in the movies, did they? Occasional good hits, but not cleaving through them routinely.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The Force

 

42 Lightsaber for 6e (AVAD version): (Total: 202 Active Cost, 42 Real Cost) Swing/Thrust: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (ED; All Or Nothing; Does not work vs. Force Fields or other Lightsabers; +1/2), Does BODY (+1) (90 Active Points); Requires A Roll (Characteristic roll; Must be made each Phase/use; -1), OAF (-1), STR Minimum 14-18 (-3/4), -2 Decreased STUN Multiplier (-1/2), No STR Bonus (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 17) plus Touch: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6, Area Of Effect (1m Surface; Offensive Damage Shield - Only vs targets touching blade; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Constant (+1/2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (ED; All Or Nothing; Does not work vs. Force Fields or other Lightsabers; +1/2), Does BODY (+1) (112 Active Points); OAF (-1), Requires A Roll (Characteristic roll; Must be made each Phase/use; -1), No Range (-1/2), -2 Decreased STUN Multiplier (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 25)

[Christopher]

Re: The Force

 

They might if they encounter Mandaloreans

They will either have weapons that can block a lightsaber, or use ranged weapons that can't be deflected/use Area of Effects.

 

Droid Shove:

I think this is a normal TK Shove/Martial Thrown/TK Punch, it's just that those Federation droids are fragile as glass. I would give them around 6 ED/PD (so they can sustain a 5 STR Punch without damage), but low Body (3-5).

 

Lightsaber Immunity:

One thing about Penetrating is (epecialyl when applied twice), that it drags down the number of Dice/per DC and can be blocked fairly easily.

A 2d6 Killing Attack, double Penetrating (+1) counts as 60 AP/12 DC. But when you have 8 rED plus 4 rED, double Impenetrable you are immune (well, unless the enemy adds some DC) for a small price.

Cortosis:

As i heard it, it is not immune. It shorts out the saber, but still get's affected a little and let's somethign though. How about (simplified) Ablation (6E1 147)?

 

There is another Limitation in Defenses whose exact Name I forgot, but it is something around the lines "not against first Body of Killing Attaks".

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Force

 

42 Lightsaber for 6e (AVAD version): (Total: 202 Active Cost' date=' 42 Real Cost) [b']Swing/Thrust:[/b] Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (ED; All Or Nothing; Does not work vs. Force Fields or other Lightsabers; +1/2)

 

Something's not clear here - what was the actual defense? I'm pretty sure you don't intend anyone with ED to be unaffected. Perhaps the defense is Force Fields and the ED is the base defense it worked against before the advantage was applied?

 

' date=' Does BODY (+1) (90 Active Points); Requires A Roll (Characteristic roll; Must be made each Phase/use; -1)[/quote']

 

Requires a Roll can only take "each phase/use" for constant or persistent powers. As well, since the characteristic roll is reduced by 1 for every 10 AP, I doubt the Lightsaber will work very often.

 

' date=' , OAF (-1), STR Minimum 14-18 (-3/4), -2 Decreased STUN Multiplier (-1/2), No STR Bonus (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 17) [u']plus[/u] Touch: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6, Area Of Effect (1m Surface; Offensive Damage Shield - Only vs targets touching blade; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Constant (+1/2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (ED; All Or Nothing; Does not work vs. Force Fields or other Lightsabers; +1/2), Does BODY (+1) (112 Active Points); OAF (-1), Requires A Roll (Characteristic roll; Must be made each Phase/use; -1), No Range (-1/2), -2 Decreased STUN Multiplier (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 25)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The Force

 

Please keep in mind that I did not spend more than 5 minutes on that build. I am picking and choosing menu options withing Hero Designer. When making a quick build example like this one I am primarily concerned with getting the overall Modifier grouping and costs correct but not necessarily the 'correct' modifier description when it is just a pre-made list of choices that have zero effect on final cost and that I can always edit later (that last detail is what takes the most time with the program imo).

 

edit

Re: RAR, I thought chose no penalty for active points so it did not display one but evidently that is not an option in the program for 6e builds so you are correct about the -1/10 active penalty. Including that Limitation was not my original choice. This build and the one before it using Pen and AP were mostly just cost corrected versions of whitekey's example in post #24.

 

See the following screenshots for an example of what I mean.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]39664[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]39665[/ATTACH]

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The Force

 

53 Lightsaber for 6e (AVAD version) v2: (Total: 202 Active Cost, 53 Real Cost) Swing/Thrust: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Force Fields or other Lightsaber Blades; All Or Nothing; +1/2), Does BODY (+1) (90 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 14-18 (-3/4), -2 Decreased STUN Multiplier (-1/2), No STR Bonus (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 21) plus Touch: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6, Area Of Effect (1m Surface; Offensive Damage Shield - Only vs targets touching blade; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Constant (+1/2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Force Fields or other Lightsaber Blades; All Or Nothing; +1/2), Does BODY (+1) (112 Active Points); OAF (-1), No Range (-1/2), -2 Decreased STUN Multiplier (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 32)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The Force

 

54 Lightsaber for 6e (AVAD version) v3: (Total: 232 Active Cost, 54 Real Cost)

Swing/Thrust: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Force Fields or other Lightsaber Blades; All Or Nothing; +1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (1m Radius; The blade weighs NOTHING; +1/2), Does BODY (+1) (105 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 14-18 (-3/4), -2 Decreased STUN Multiplier (-1/2), No STR Bonus (-1/2), Linked (Touch; -1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Can Be Deflected (-1/4), Required Hands One-And-A-Half-Handed (-1/4) (Real Cost: 20)

plus

Touch: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6, Area Of Effect (1m Surface; Offensive Damage Shield - Only vs targets touching blade; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Constant (+1/2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Force Fields or other Lightsaber Blades; All Or Nothing; +1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (1m Radius; The blade weighs NOTHING; +1/2), Does BODY (+1) (127 Active Points); OAF (-1), No Range (-1/2), -2 Decreased STUN Multiplier (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Can Be Deflected (-1/4) (Real Cost: 34)

[TheNaga]

Re: The Force

 

54 Lightsaber for 6e (AVAD version) v3: (Total: 232 Active Cost' date=' 54 Real Cost) [u']

Swing/Thrust:[/u] Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Force Fields or other Lightsaber Blades; All Or Nothing; +1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (1m Radius; The blade weighs NOTHING; +1/2), Does BODY (+1) (105 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 14-18 (-3/4), -2 Decreased STUN Multiplier (-1/2), No STR Bonus (-1/2), Linked (Touch; -1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Can Be Deflected (-1/4), Required Hands One-And-A-Half-Handed (-1/4) (Real Cost: 20)

plus

Touch: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6, Area Of Effect (1m Surface; Offensive Damage Shield - Only vs targets touching blade; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Constant (+1/2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Force Fields or other Lightsaber Blades; All Or Nothing; +1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (1m Radius; The blade weighs NOTHING; +1/2), Does BODY (+1) (127 Active Points); OAF (-1), No Range (-1/2), -2 Decreased STUN Multiplier (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Can Be Deflected (-1/4) (Real Cost: 34)

That sure is a lot of points for a Lightsaber.