Chryckan's general dumb questions thread....

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Chryckan's general dumb questions thread....

 

I have read the rules now but there is an awful lot of chaff floating about. Let me see if I can restate your issues and see if we can get a clean start.

 

You have a character with DI and Absorption. You wanted to know how to calculate what happens if the absporption feeds the DI, most specifically if you already have hardened defences and advantaged STR (for example armour piercing)?

 

So. Your character already has armour piercing STR and hardened PD and ED.

 

DI provides +5 normal STR and +1 normal PD and ED.

 

If you absorb 4 BODY damage then you gain 5 normal STR and 1 normal PD and ED.

 

Advantages are difficult when it is small amounts you are talking about - lets talk about a situation where you have 16 BODY absorption:

 

+20 STR and +4 PD and +4 ED.

 

To advantage both of these would require 5 points for the STR, 1 point for the PD and 1 point for the ED.

 

In effect, to have the advantaged version needs 16 + 7 character points, or 23 points.

 

In effect you get one level of DI for every 6 BODY you absorb.

 

By calculating the advantages right in there - all you need to do is come up with a ball park figure for each level of DI and then, in game, you can just add the STR and the defences and know the advantages are covered...

 

My problem is that from reading the rules, I am not sure whether you should also take the limitation that will be applied into the equation. My take would be that it was only fair to take the limitation as well as the advantages into the calculation which would mean that OIF brings the cost back to four points per level of DI.

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Chryckan's general dumb questions thread....

 

Coming back to side issues...

 

If we assume that the first paragraph on page 147 under the heading Advantages explains how to calculate the cost for an advantage for PD and ED ONLY WHEN BUYING IT FOR ANY PD AND ED YOU BUY AS A CHARACTERISTIC.

Then what [that] quote states is that if you buy any PD as a power (such as a OIF power armour for example) with an advantage. Then you shouldn't add the two base PD points every character gets when calculating the cost for the advantage since they and the armour counts as two different defences.

 

I think you have this exactly back to front. It says that when you buy an advantage for PD then you HAVE to consider all of the sources of PD, including the two free at the start. So if you harden PD then the PD from DI, personal characteristics and characteristics bought as powers must all be hardened. All of these are different powers but not different defences...

 

Doc

[Chryckan]

Re: Chryckan's general dumb questions thread....

 

 

Simple:

Resistant Protection, Flash Defense, Mental Defense and Power Defense are Powers.

Your normal PD/ED is a (defensive) Characteristic and has nothing to do with those powers.

 

 

You always buy normal PD/ED as Characteristic.

Of course you can buy Characteristics (all Characteristics, not only those two) as Powers. Otherwise you could not properly apply Limitations to them. But even Characteristics bought as Powers are still counted as Characteristics (they are drained as one single block with the stuff you buy normally).

Just buying 5 CP of STR or buying 5 CP of STR as Power is at no point a difference.

 

Coming back to side issues...

 

 

 

I think you have this exactly back to front. It says that when you buy an advantage for PD then you HAVE to consider all of the sources of PD, including the two free at the start. So if you harden PD then the PD from DI, personal characteristics and characteristics bought as powers must all be hardened. All of these are different powers but not different defences...

 

Doc

 

Actually, no, no and no.

 

At least not according to 6E2 on page 103 under the heading Normal Damage Attacks.

 

A Character's main form of defence are his natural PD and ED. These can be supplemented by defences bought as powers (for example limited forms of PD and ED bought as powers, or Resistant Protection).

 

So apparently if you buy PD or ED as a power and with a limitation (such as an OIF for power armour) then it counts as a separate defence from a character's natural PD and ED.

And the rules for harden and impen clearly states that you can have some defences that are harden/impen and some that isn't harden/impen.

Which would mean that if you buy any PD or ED as a power with a limitation and harden/impen then you should not need to add any of the character's natural PD or ED when calculating the cost of the advantage.

 

This have to be the correct interpretation because if it isn't the rules are clearly wrong since it would be a humongous blatant contradiction.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Chryckan's general dumb questions thread....

 

This have to be the correct interpretation because if it isn't the rules are clearly wrong since it would be a humongous blatant contradiction.

 

Bit of hyperbole there....

 

OK. HERO is not a simple ruleset, it is complex because it tries to allow you to do what you want.

 

Now. There are some calculations that will require you to consider all PD and some that will not.

 

If you want to consider your PD hardened against armour piercing, and you want to purchase that as a naked advantage because, for example, you have a field generator that protects against such things without adding to general toughness, then you need to consider ALL sources of PD. If you want to have the complication of halving some defences and not others against an attack then, as a GM, I would allow you that unless you caused a huge delay in gameplay and then I think I would insist that you made things less complex.

 

I will have to wait til I go home to read the rules more carefully and then come back to you....

 

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Chryckan's general dumb questions thread....

 

Went and looked in the FAQ:

 

I don’t quite understand what it means about having to Harden all your defense. Does that mean if you want one of a character’s defense to be Hardened, *all* of them must be Hardened?

 

As stated in the rules, “A given defense must be all Hardened, or it’s not Hardened at all. A character can, however, have some defenses that are Hardened, and others that are not.” “A given defense” does not mean “all uses of X Defense Power.” It means you can’t have a defensive ability defined as Y points of defense and only Harden Z% of them -- you must Harden 100% of them. But it’s perfectly OK to buy two different defensive abilities, even ones built with the same Power, and Harden only one of them, as in the example you provided.

 

So my original comment was indeed wrong. My second was closer to the truth.

 

As far as the DI goes however, that PD is adding directly to personal PD and, if you want that to be hardened then you have to be hardening all of the personal PD including the free two points you get at the beginning of the game.

 

As a GM I would be open to that PD adding to another set of PD that is linked directly to the armour which is gaining density...though I think that might turn out to be a GM by GM decision.

 

Are you straight on the issues now? Are there other questions that you need explored???

 

 

Doc

[Chryckan]

Re: Chryckan's general dumb questions thread....

 

Went and looked in the FAQ:

 

 

 

So my original comment was indeed wrong. My second was closer to the truth.

 

As far as the DI goes however, that PD is adding directly to personal PD and, if you want that to be hardened then you have to be hardening all of the personal PD including the free two points you get at the beginning of the game.

 

As a GM I would be open to that PD adding to another set of PD that is linked directly to the armour which is gaining density...though I think that might turn out to be a GM by GM decision.

 

Are you straight on the issues now? Are there other questions that you need explored???

 

 

Doc

 

Okay, so DI is adding to personal PD/ED.

 

But then in reverse if you buy PD as an OIF with harden you shouldn't have to add the cost for harden to DI, right? Since DI isn't boosting the OIF PD but the personal PD, i mean.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Chryckan's general dumb questions thread....

 

Okay, so DI is adding to personal PD/ED.

 

But then in reverse if you buy PD as an OIF with harden you shouldn't have to add the cost for harden to DI, right? Since DI isn't boosting the OIF PD but the personal PD, i mean.

 

If I were your GM, I would say that the DI was all about the armour and so would add to the armour and need hardened but would also benefit from the OIF. I asked Steve about that.

 

So for every level of DI you need to gain 4 BODY from the absorption. That means you would add hardened PD/ED to your armour....

[Chryckan]

Re: Chryckan's general dumb questions thread....

 

Right, but what I sort of meant was lets assume we have a mutant who's innate power is DI so the DI adds to his personal, natural PD and the mutant then puts on a body armour consisting of harden PD.

Now would it be necessary to add the cost for harden to DI even though the effect of DI never actually affect the body armour?

 

 

Here's a new question.

 

How do I make non-humanoid characters.

 

Say for example a amorphous amoeba, an intelligent caterpillar with manipulative appendages or a characters who's sole physical existence consist of a top hat and a pair of white gloves that free floats around in the air at the approximately normal height where those objects would be on a average human. (Note that we're not talking about a an immaterial body wearing a physical hat and gloves. The hat and gloves is all there is.)

 

What rules and power could be used for such types of characters? (No need for complicated examples and calculations on this one. Just stating the rules etc. will be fine. )

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Chryckan's general dumb questions thread....

 

Right, but what I sort of meant was lets assume we have a mutant who's innate power is DI so the DI adds to his personal, natural PD and the mutant then puts on a body armour consisting of harden PD.

Now would it be necessary to add the cost for harden to DI even though the effect of DI never actually affect the body armour?

 

I would say not. It goes straight to the PD which was not hardened and so there would be no need to harden the DI provided PD. I think I am on top of this now...

 

 

Here's a new question.

 

How do I make non-humanoid characters.

 

Say for example a amorphous amoeba, an intelligent caterpillar with manipulative appendages or a characters who's sole physical existence consist of a top hat and a pair of white gloves that free floats around in the air at the approximately normal height where those objects would be on a average human. (Note that we're not talking about a an immaterial body wearing a physical hat and gloves. The hat and gloves is all there is.)

 

What rules and power could be used for such types of characters? (No need for complicated examples and calculations on this one. Just stating the rules etc. will be fine. )

 

I'm afraid my first stab at this is that it would all depend on how you wanted those things to affect the play experience.

 

For example, the top hat and gloves. I would expect that you would sell back your running and purchase some form of limited flight - they will not fall through a rickety staircase but may topple down a ravine. If the hat is more difficult to target you may wish to purchase shrinking to get that idea across.

 

It really all does depend on how you want things to change - the old HERO mantra - think of the effect you want, find the powers that will deliver that.

 

 

Doc

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Chryckan's general dumb questions thread....

 

For the hat I would build the character as a smaller size. There is a size chart in 6E1. Also, the limited flight sounds like just the thing.

[Christopher]

Re: Chryckan's general dumb questions thread....

 

Say for example a amorphous amoeba' date='[/quote']

The automaton powers would be worth a look. Maybe Damage Reduction. Stretching, Clinging and otehr things possible.

Otherwise Powers, Limitations and Sellbacks depend on the differences to the human form. If he can still do anything normal humans can (full senses, full manipulation, full locomotion) then the differences could be negliible.

 

an intelligent caterpillar with manipulative appendages or a characters who's sole physical existence consist of a top hat and a pair of white gloves that free floats

Again: What is the difference to a normal human. Does the beign recieve damage when you attack the air where it "shoudl be"? The hat and gloves? Or only one very rare attack?

Shrinking and Desolidification are both possibilites.