Damage Die Type Modifiers

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

After reviewing by my last post it seems obvious to me that basing active points on the maximum effects is inferior to basing them on standard effects.

 

[edit]:

 

When following trends of the max effects it seems possible to figure the active points of dice under d2 (e.g., d0, d1/2, d1, etc.) but the results are nonsense.

 

Dice under d2 are nothing other than the standard effects of higher dice. That is to say, they don't exist. There's no such thing.

 

[conclusion]:

 

A normal damage d2 attack has a standard effect of 1 BODY (2 ap) & 1 STUN (+1 ap) for 3 active points... rather than a max effect of 2 BODY (2 ap) & 2 STUN (1 ap) for 3 active points. =P

 

The distinction is subtle.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

1d100+1d12 totals a max of (2+100+2+12=) 116 overall points of damage, most of which is stun. SLAM! Chances are this volatile normal stun attack will do body damage from spillover stun that exceeds both the target's defenses & total STUN. It is almost certain that the target will be knocked out. It is virtually useless vs. anything that takes no stun.

 

20d2 totals a max of (40+40=) 80 overall points of damage, half of which is body. This is 36 overall points less than 1d100+1d12. Chances are the target will be killed before being knocked out.

 

Put the two in a Multipower and away we go! I'll use my 30d2 attack on things that take no Stun, and my d100 + d12 attack against targets I want to KO. Even a Normal will usually take no BOD, so no need to hold back!

 

BTW, where are you getting "lots of STUN means the attack does BOD" from? I'm not certain the "STUN damage at least equal to BOD damage" rule is, or isn't, in 6th, but I've never seen a "death from massive STUN" rule. It would make NND's much less friendly!

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

BTW' date=' where are you getting "lots of STUN means the attack does BOD" from? I'm not certain the "STUN damage at least equal to BOD damage" rule is, or isn't, in 6th, but I've never seen a "death from massive STUN" rule. It would make NND's much less friendly![/quote']

 

My mistake. I was thinking about how you can burn STUN to perform actions when your END runs out. Ignore me. I have attempted to fix the offending post. =P

 

[beyond that]:

 

While pondering non-existent d1s, d1/2s, and d0s yesterday, I had an idea about inverting the STUN & BODY rolled to create two new prototype dice (Inverted Normal Damage & Inverted Killing) out of the original two archetypes (Normal Damage & Killing). It's simple and likewise inspired by The Main Man's method for determining active points for unusual dice.

 

Just switch the BODY & STUN and you get Inverted dice rolls.

 

Inverted Normal Damage Attacks

d100 (standard effects: 50 BODY, 1 STUN) 100+1= 101 active points

d20 (standard effects: 10 BODY, 1 STUN) 20+1= 21 active points

d12 (standard effects: 6 BODY, 1 STUN) 12+1= 13 active points

d10 (standard effects: 5 BODY, 1 STUN) 10+1= 11 active points

d8 (standard effects: 4 BODY, 1 STUN) 8+1= 9 active points

d6 (standard effects: 3 BODY, 1 STUN) 6+1= 7 active points

d4 (standard effects: 2 BODY, 1 STUN) 4+1= 5 active points [1 DC]

d3 (standard effects: 1.5 BODY, 1 STUN) 3+1= 4 active points

d2 (standard effects: 1 BODY, 1 STUN) 2+1= 3 active points [which is no different than the non-inverted form]

 

Inverted Killing Attacks

d100 (standard effects: 150 BODY, 50 STUN) 300+50= 350 active points

d20 (standard effects: 30 BODY, 10 STUN) 60+10= 70 active points

d12 (standard effects: 18 BODY, 6 STUN) 36+6= 42 active points

d10 (standard effects: 15 BODY, 5 STUN) 30+5= 35 active points

d8 (standard effects: 12 BODY, 4 STUN) 24+4= 28 active points

d6 (standard effects: 9 BODY, 3 STUN) 18+3= 21 active points

d4 (standard effects: 6 BODY, 2 STUN) 12+2= 14 active points

d3 (standard effects: 4.5 BODY, 1.5 STUN) 9+1.5= 10.5 active points

d2 (standard effects: 3 BODY, 1 STUN) 6+1= 7 active points

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

Based on a minimum 1 STUN per BOD taken, the inverted dice don't work. Even without that, doing BOD is generally more problematic than STUN - few characters have more BOD than STUN, and it takes much longer to recover.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

Well...in the D&D 3e -> HERO 5e conversion materials, I presented a dice approximation / conversion from D&D dice to HERO dice. You could just use the non-D6's instead, I suppose.

 

 

DnD dice to HERO System dice

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

Based on a minimum 1 STUN per BOD taken' date=' the inverted dice don't work.[/quote']

 

Yes, according to the book, but this is not necessarily true. Change inverted dice to a minumum 1 BODY per STUN taken.

 

This lets non-resistant defenses work vs. the BODY of inverted killing attacks, but lets the STUN (& the minimum of BODY) through. Correct?

 

Even without that' date=' doing BOD is generally more problematic than STUN - few characters have more BOD than STUN, and it takes much longer to recover.[/quote']

 

This is all true. Likewise, monsters that get up after you defeat them are problematic, too. =)

 

Inverting STUN & BODY could be a made into a maneuver that was limited in some unique way.

 

What if inverted attacks were at 1/2 initiative? Would this affect how problematic inverted attacks were?

 

What if inverted attacks were suggested only for campaigns where DEX costs 2 pts (rather than 1)?

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

Well...in the D&D 3e -> HERO 5e conversion materials, I presented a dice approximation / conversion from D&D dice to HERO dice. You could just use the non-D6's instead, I suppose.

 

 

DnD dice to HERO System dice

 

Isn't everybody already doing this? =)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

Yes, according to the book, but this is not necessarily true. Change inverted dice to a minumum 1 BODY per STUN taken.

 

This lets non-resistant defenses work vs. the BODY of inverted killing attacks, but lets the STUN (& the minimum of BODY) through. Correct?

 

Not sure what we're getting at here - normal defenses working against KA BOD would help a bit, I suppose, but wouldn't attacks designed to kill logically be high BOD, so normal defenses becoming more useful may not be a good fit. Anyway, for 12 DC, would you rather average 14 BOD vs rDEF, or 42 BOD vs normal DEF? Seems the latter will kill the typical Super in a 60 AP game pretty quickly.

 

This is all true. Likewise, monsters that get up after you defeat them are problematic, too. =)

 

Inverting STUN & BODY could be a made into a maneuver that was limited in some unique way.

 

What if inverted attacks were at 1/2 initiative? Would this affect how problematic inverted attacks were?

 

What if inverted attacks were suggested only for campaigns where DEX costs 2 pts (rather than 1)?

 

So Char 1 can attack first and get some STUN through, then Char 2 gets to attack and inflict the same amount of BOD on Char 1. I wonder who will win that fight...

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

Not sure what we're getting at here - normal defenses working against KA BOD would help a bit' date=' I suppose, but wouldn't attacks designed to kill logically be high BOD, so normal defenses becoming more useful may not be a good fit.[/quote']

 

I don't know what it's good for, but I think it's perfect. =)

 

Anyway' date=' for 12 DC, would you rather average 14 BOD vs rDEF, or 42 BOD vs normal DEF? Seems the latter will kill the typical Super in a 60 AP game pretty quickly.[/quote']

 

I reckon so.

 

So Char 1 can attack first and get some STUN through' date=' then Char 2 gets to attack and inflict the same amount of BOD on Char 1. I wonder who will win that fight...[/quote']

 

Roshambo?

 

[edit]:

 

Something to think about before buying STUN Only (-0) for normal damage attacks is how much BODY damage you are losing.

 

a) With "regular" normal damage dice, the higher the count on the die (d100 being the highest) and the fewer dice, the better for STUN Only (-0).

With "inverted" normal damage dice, the lower the count on the die (d2 being the lowest) and the more dice, the better for STUN Only (-0).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

I don't know what it's good for' date=' but I think it's perfect. =)[/quote']

 

Assuming you want a high body count and routine halting of the game while the players make new characters, I suppose so. Any character that can handle getting pounded with attacks that average 42 BOD will never be KO'd by attacks averaging 42 Stun, so killing the enemy becomes the only practical means of winning a combat. May as well just get rid of Stun altogether and play with Blasts that do 12d6 Hit Points (BOD).

 

Something to think about before buying STUN Only (-0) for normal damage attacks is how much BODY damage you are losing.

 

a) With "regular" normal damage dice, the higher the count on the die (d100 being the highest) and the fewer dice, the better for STUN Only (-0).

With "inverted" normal damage dice, the lower the count on the die (d2 being the lowest) and the more dice, the better for STUN Only (-0).

 

With inverted dice in the game, why would anyone take "Stun Only"? Unless the characters buy BOD up and sell STUN down, taking a target down with high BOD, low STUN attacks will be the most effective approach. And they will want to do so quickly - being the target of one of those attacks will quickly make it "new character time", unless your concept includes Regeneration (preferably from death).

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

Assuming you want a high body count and routine halting of the game while the players make new characters' date=' I suppose so. Any character that can handle getting pounded with attacks that average 42 BOD will never be KO'd by attacks averaging 42 Stun, so killing the enemy becomes the only practical means of winning a combat. May as well just get rid of Stun altogether and play with Blasts that do 12d6 Hit Points (BOD).[/quote']

 

That's what automatons do.

 

"... high body count..." [[bold emphasis is mine]] =P

 

Wouldn't characters with low STUN still be at a disadvantage from high stunning attacks? Not so much?

 

With inverted dice in the game' date=' why would anyone take "Stun Only"? Unless the characters buy BOD up and sell STUN down, taking a target down with high BOD, low STUN attacks will be the most effective approach. And they will want to do so quickly - being the target of one of those attacks will quickly make it "new character time", unless your concept includes Regeneration (preferably from death).[/quote']

 

As of now I'm done with the "Stun Only (-0)" modifier.

 

"STUN Only" normal damage dice

d2: 1 active point

d3: 1.5 active points

d4: 2 active points

d6: 3 active points

d8: 4 active points

d10: 5 active points

d12: 6 active points

d20: 10 active points

d100: 50 active points

 

"BODY Only" inverted normal damage dice

d2: 2 active point

d3: 3 active points

d4: 4 active points

d6: 6 active points

d8: 8 active points

d10: 10 active points

d12: 12 active points

d20: 20 active points

d100: 100 active points

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

That's what automatons do.

 

"... high body count..." [[bold emphasis is mine]] =P

 

Well, it's what some automatons do. And those that do not take STUN pay triple for their defenses, as there needs to be an ability to inflict damage on them.

 

Wouldn't characters with low STUN still be at a disadvantage from high stunning attacks? Not so much?

 

Below zero stun = KO'd and back for the next battle. Below 0 BOD = dead or dying, and new character time. I see that as a pretty significant difference.

 

As well, STUN comes back after the battle where BOD takes weeks or months to recover. Taking half your STUN in each battle means your character is doing extremely well. Taking half your BOD in each battle, for most characters, means a lot of down time or near term death.

 

If my defenses are the same against STUN and BOD, my STUN and BOD are the same value and the average damage from an attack is the same for both, I expect the character will soon be deceased.

 

As of now I'm done with the "Stun Only (-0)" modifier.

 

"STUN Only" normal damage dice

d2: 1 active point

d3: 1.5 active points

d4: 2 active points

d6: 3 active points

d8: 4 active points

d10: 5 active points

d12: 6 active points

d20: 10 active points

d100: 50 active points

 

"BODY Only" inverted normal damage dice

d2: 2 active point

d3: 3 active points

d4: 4 active points

d6: 6 active points

d8: 8 active points

d10: 10 active points

d12: 12 active points

d20: 20 active points

d100: 100 active points

 

I'm not sure what kind of game you're hoping to create. I come back to averages. In a 60 AP game, with defenses in the 20 to 25 range, a 1d100 + 1d20 STUN attack seems pretty effective, passing 36 to 41 STUN past defenses on an average hit - probably stunning the target. 60d2 will average 90 STUN, inflicting 65 - 70 and KOing most targets in one shot.

 

30d2 BOD will average 45 BOD, or 20 - 25 past defenses. Seems like death will be swift.

 

This certainly makes the first strike all-important, as it seems likely to end many battles. If that's the type of game you're trying to simulate, you should be good to go.

 

But you haven't told us the purpose of this experiment, other than wanting to use different shaped dice, so I'm unclear as to the purpose of the exercise.

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

Well' date=' it's what [b']some[/b] automatons do. And those that do not take STUN pay triple for their defenses, as there needs to be an ability to inflict damage on them.

 

I'm just pointing out one of the virtues of these dice... cracking open characters that take no STUN.

 

Tripling the cost of defenses for characters that take no STUN is good. I'm all for it.

 

Below zero stun = KO'd and back for the next battle. Below 0 BOD = dead or dying, and new character time. I see that as a pretty significant difference.

 

As well, STUN comes back after the battle where BOD takes weeks or months to recover. Taking half your STUN in each battle means your character is doing extremely well. Taking half your BOD in each battle, for most characters, means a lot of down time or near term death.

 

If my defenses are the same against STUN and BOD, my STUN and BOD are the same value and the average damage from an attack is the same for both, I expect the character will soon be deceased.

 

This makes Healing PCs (e.g., clerics & super-doctors) more valuable to the party. Regenerators & resurrectors likewise get what they want: more BODY dmg & death.

 

I'm not sure what kind of game you're hoping to create.

 

PolygonHERO for players with lots of old dice from other games... and not a lot of familiarity with HERO itself.

 

I come back to averages. In a 60 AP game, with defenses in the 20 to 25 range, a 1d100 + 1d20 STUN attack seems pretty effective, passing 36 to 41 STUN past defenses on an average hit - probably stunning the target. 60d2 will average 90 STUN, inflicting 65 - 70 and KOing most targets in one shot.

 

30d2 BOD will average 45 BOD, or 20 - 25 past defenses. Seems like death will be swift.

 

This certainly makes the first strike all-important, as it seems likely to end many battles. If that's the type of game you're trying to simulate, you should be good to go.

 

But you haven't told us the purpose of this experiment, other than wanting to use different shaped dice, so I'm unclear as to the purpose of the exercise.

 

Imagine you were playing in a new game that used whatever dice you wanted. Most of us here (myself included) are most comfortable with d6s. So use d6s.

 

Now imagine you were playing in a HERO game (that was all d6) and all you've got is 3d6 and a big bag of d10s. The standard solution is to ignore the d10s and just go wild with your 3d6s. With my game I'd let you make (as an example) a 12d10 "Stun Only" normal dmg sleep spell (avg. STUN dmg= 66)...

 

... or a 6d10 "Body Only" inverted normal dmg paralytic poison (avg. BODY dmg= 33)...

... a big 8d10 normal dmg super-fist (avg. STUN dmg= 44)(avg. BODY dmg= 8)...

etc.

 

[edit]:

 

Other than that...

 

I was hoping to come up with an alternate to killing attacks. This I think I have accomplished in spades. =)

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

Isn't everybody already doing this? =)

 

I dunno. Are they?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

I'm just pointing out one of the virtues of these dice... cracking open characters that take no STUN.

 

Tripling the cost of defenses for characters that take no STUN is good. I'm all for it.

 

If a typical attack designed around doing BOD is going to average a roll of 42, and the automaton's defenses are going to be 7-8 (equates to 21 - 24 for a normal character, so the standard 20 - 25 range) or even 10 - 12 (equates to 30 -36 defenses for a normal character), then either we ramp BOD scores through the roof or automatons shatter like glass against these "new killing attacks".

 

Even if the campaign defenses are around 30, taking an average of 12 STUN per attack isn't a huge deal, but most characters can't handle average attacks of 12 BOD for very long.

 

This makes Healing PCs (e.g.' date=' clerics & super-doctors) more valuable to the party. Regenerators & resurrectors likewise get what they want: more BODY dmg & death.[/quote']

 

I think it comes a lot closer to making healers and/or regen, both with Resurrection, indispensible. With attacks that average 42 BOD, and otherwise standard Hero builds, characters will drop like flies. There is no point working to do STUN damage, and KO the average target with 40 - 50 STUN trickling through 6 - 12 (defenses 30 - 36) or 17 - 22 (defenses 20 - 25) per hit if I can inflict the same BOD damage per hit.

 

The ultimate character becomes a Clairvoyant teleporter. Port in, fire once (target takes 15+ BOD), port out. Repeat once per minute, or once per turn. If I were doing STUN, the target gets to recover in the interim. BOD? 2 hits and he's likely dead. Even if he has Regen, he's not getting back 15 BOD per turn - few characters get back 15 BOD per minute. That means a paradigm shift to much higher defenses and/or virtually unlimited healing in order to have a character that will last a few combat encounters.

 

PolygonHERO for players with lots of old dice from other games... and not a lot of familiarity with HERO itself.

 

To me, that implies balancing the various polygons, not creating a model that results in vast changes to average damage inflicted.

 

Imagine you were playing in a new game that used whatever dice you wanted. Most of us here (myself included) are most comfortable with d6s. So use d6s.

 

Now imagine you were playing in a HERO game (that was all d6) and all you've got is 3d6 and a big bag of d10s. The standard solution is to ignore the d10s and just go wild with your 3d6s. With my game I'd let you make (as an example) a 12d10 "Stun Only" normal dmg sleep spell (avg. STUN dmg= 66)...

 

... or a 6d10 "Body Only" inverted normal dmg paralytic poison (avg. BODY dmg= 33)...

... a big 8d10 normal dmg super-fist (avg. STUN dmg= 44)(avg. BODY dmg= 8)...

etc.

 

The problem isn't the use of different dice, it's the balance between them. Take your three examples above, add a character with a 12d6 Blast and one with a 4d6 KA. All of these attacks, under your model, cost 60 points. Create a template for the remaining points (say 340, or make it less to account for utility and noncombat abilities we won't stat out for this purpose) using typical OCV, DCV, DEX, BOD, STUN, Defenses, etc. that you would expect in a game where 60 AP attacks are the expected norm. Now face these characters off against one another, and let's see how balanced the system is.

 

Hey, let's just assume they all have equal OCV's and DCV's (attacks hit 62.5% of the time), equal SPD (they all get the same number of attacks), defenses of 30, of which 15 are resistant, BOD of 25 (very high, IMO), 30 CON (also pretty high) and STUN of 50 (only twice BOD). Other than STUN, I think these are very high defensive characters.

 

(1) 12d10 "Stun Only" normal dmg sleep spell (avg. STUN dmg= 66) STUNS the target and takes him out the next phase. 62.5% chance of autowin if he gets first attack, or if the opponent's first attack doesn't drop him.

 

(2)... or a 6d10 "Body Only" inverted normal dmg paralytic poison (avg. BODY dmg= 33)... Trickles about 3 BOD through per shot - needs 17 hits to take the target to death/KO.

 

(3)... a big 8d10 normal dmg super-fist (avg. STUN dmg= 44)(avg. BODY dmg= 8)... This one's 80 AP so it should, IMO, be much more potent than a 60 Ap attack. It gets 14 STUN past defenses per hit, and will need 4 hits to KO the target (probably more as the target will get PS 12 recoveries). Drop it to 60 AP (33 average) and it trickles 3 STUN a hit through and needs 17 hits to KO the target (realistically, way more as the target will get lots of PS 12 recoveries)

 

(4) 12d6 attack trickles 12 STUN past defenses and needs 6 hits to KO (realistically, more as the target will get PS 12 recoveries)

 

(5) 4d6 RKA averages 14 and 28, so does nothing. Bump that up to 14 and 42 (he always max'es the Stun multiple) and we get the 12d6 normal attack result.

 

The Stun Only attack should win virtually every time - statistically, the probability he will lose is insignificant. He needs only one hit and the battle is over, and even the guy with 1/3 more AP's needs 4 hits minimum to down him.

 

Let's go with lower defensive figures - they still all have equal OCV's and DCV's (attacks hit 62.5% of the time), equal SPD (they all get the same number of attacks), but defenses of 25, of which 12 are resistant, BOD of 15, 30 CON (still pretty high) and STUN of 75 (lots). Still pretty defended characters, but more in the 60 AP guidelines.

 

(1) 12d10 "Stun Only" normal dmg sleep spell (avg. STUN dmg= 66) STUNS the target and takes him out the next phase. Keeps his 62.5% chance of autowin if he gets first attack, or if the opponent's first attack doesn't drop him.

 

(2)... or a 6d10 "Body Only" inverted normal dmg paralytic poison (avg. BODY dmg= 33)... Blasts 8 BOD through per shot - still needs 4 hits to take the target to death, but a series of these without "three men for a quarter" style healing will kill off characters pretty quick. Make sure agents get Inverted Dice KA's.

 

(3)... a big 8d10 normal dmg super-fist (avg. STUN dmg= 44)(avg. BODY dmg= 8)... This one's 80 AP so it should, IMO, be much more potent than a 60 Ap attack. It gets 19 STUN past defenses per hit, and will need 4 hits to KO the target (probably more as the target will get PS 12 recoveries). Drop it to 60 AP (33 average) and it trickles 8 STUN a hit through and needs 10 hits to KO the target (realistically, way more as the target will get lots of PS 12 recoveries)

 

(4) 12d6 attack gets 17 STUN past defenses and needs 4 hits to KO (realistically, more as the target will get PS 12 recoveries)

 

(5) 4d6 RKA averages 14 and 28, so 3 STUN trickles through. 2 BOD gets through as well. It will take forever to KO the target. Bump that up to 14 and 42 (he always max'es the Stun multiple) and we get the 12d6 normal attack result, with a bit of BOD as well.

 

The Stun Only attack should still win virtually every time - statistically, the probability he will lose is insignificant. He needs only one hit and the battle is over, and even the guy with 1/3 more AP's needs 4 hits minimum to down him. But a succession of BOD only attacks will wear him down over time.

 

And these aren't the max'ed out STUN or BOD attacks. Those remain d2's, averaging 90 STUN (one shot victory) or 45 BOD (two shot kill).

 

I was hoping to come up with an alternate to killing attacks. This I think I have accomplished in spades. =)

 

I think you've created a strong potential for instant death (or near to it) attacks and rendered Entangles, Automatons, Barriers and other "take BOD only" constructs near useless. If that's your definition of "an alternate to killing attacks", mission accomplished.

 

The Killer Shrike model (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/armamentsNotes.aspx#DnDLists) gets the average damage figures for BOD to equate to hit points, assuming we're dealing with a killing attack. I suspect it makes for a good simulation. But you're not trying to emulate killing attacks. Using KS' model, a 3d2 killing attack costs 15 points and averages 4.5 BOD and 9 STUN. For the same 15 points in your model, I can have 15d2 Stun Only averaging 22.5 STUN, 7.5d2 BOD averaging 11.5 BOD or 7.5d2 averaging 11.5 STUN and 7.5 BOD.

 

You set 1d20 at 12 for standard, 10 for Stun only and 20 for BOD only. In KS' model, a 1d20 KA is the same price as a 3d6 KA, averaging 10.5 BOD and 21 STUN for 45 AP. Under your model, 3 1/2d20 costs 42 points and averages 37 STUN and 3.5 BOD (KO's most targets, I expect, or at least Stuns them); 4.5d6 STUN only (45 AP) averages about 47.5 STUN, so KO'd or at least Stuns the target and 2d20 BOD only (only 40 AP) averages 21 BOD, twice the KS model's output. The target gets their normal defenses, of course, so it's not a completely fair comparison, but 10.5 against 4 rDEF gets 6.5 past defenses. They need total defenses of 15+ to have less damage pass through under your model. I don't see a lot of heroic fantasy characters with 15+ defenses.

 

KS' model doesn't extrapolate into normal damage (or I didn't read far enough - is it in there, KS?), but since he converts to d6's, the issue of how to count BOD on other polyhedrons doesn't really come into play. A 3d20 normal attack should equate to a 3d6 Killing attack (as 1d20 is 9 DC's in the KS model), or 9d6 normal damage. That's an average of 31.5 STUN, 9 BOD. 3d20 will get the same 31.5 average STUN. We need a model that averages 9 BOD, or 3 BOD per d20. Let's start with the premise a 1 should do no BOD, and a 20 should do 6 BOD, so we get the same maximum BOD of 18. Let's also assume those are outlier results, and we want to skew to a mean.

 

How about the following:

 

d20 STUN Roll/BOD Count

 

1/0

2 or 3/1

4 - 6/2

7 - 14/3

15-17/4

18 or 19/5

20/6

 

That's a 5% chance of 6 BOD, quite a bit better than the 1 in 216 chance of 3d6 maxing out, so larger dice will still be more volatile for the same averages, but we're reasonably close. That makes a 1d20 normal attack cost 15 points, and a 1d20 killing attack costs 45. Easy to extrapolate - for any type of attack, 1d20 costs the same as 3d6.

 

Your "inverted", BOD only and STUN only system makes for more effective focused attacks on an AP basis simply because the baseline system does not reduce AP when one type of damage is reduced, but only reduces real cost. This is a similar issue to the old Hand Attack conundrum - allowing a 20d6 Hand Attack as a 60 AP power meant a lot more damage could be done than with other 60 AP powers, so Hand Attack got modified to a limitation instead of a reduced AP cost. You could accomplish the same thing (which I think a lot of us did) by imposing a DC cap, not just an AP cap, so if you can't have more than 9 DC's, you can't have more than 3d20 normal damage, or a 1d20 KA whether it does both SUN and BOD normally, does STUN only or does BOD only.

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

I think it comes a lot closer to making healers and/or regen' date=' both with Resurrection, indispensible. [/quote']

 

For dark/gritty campaigns, heal-bots ought to be nerf'd somehow to keep them from being obligatory party members.

 

The ultimate character becomes a Clairvoyant teleporter. Port in' date=' fire once (target takes 15+ BOD), port out. Repeat once per minute, or once per turn.[/quote']

 

No offense, but that is so cheesy it's funny.

 

BTW, one of my players has a Tunneling/Mind Scanning/EGO Attacker named "Brain Mole" that operates much like this. =P

 

... a paradigm shift to much higher defenses and/or virtually unlimited healing in order to have a character that will last a few combat encounters.

 

From my experience, in games like this, initiative is God. Everything else is either overkill or underwhelming. No matter how big & heavy your character is, something in the game can take you out in one shot.

 

Plus, the bigger & heavier you are, the more of a meta-game target you are.

 

To me, that implies balancing the various polygons, not creating a model that results in vast changes to average damage inflicted.

 

The problem isn't the use of different dice, it's the balance between them...

 

See below.*

 

(1) 12d10 "Stun Only" normal dmg sleep spell (avg. STUN dmg= 66) STUNS the target and takes him out the next phase. 62.5% chance of autowin if he gets first attack' date=' or if the opponent's first attack doesn't drop him.[/quote']

 

If I cast a sleep spell, I expect it to put people to sleep sometimes.

 

Oh, dude... I totally forgot to employ d100s in my example. Here's an elegant one:

 

1d100 "Stun Only" norm dmg (avg. STUN dmg= 50.5)... (50 AP) PLUS 1d10 "Body Only" inverted norm dmg (avg. BODY dmg= 5.5)... (10 AP) = 60 active points

 

(2)... or a 6d10 "Body Only" inverted normal dmg paralytic poison (avg. BODY dmg= 33)... Trickles about 3 BOD through per shot - needs 17 hits to take the target to death/KO.

 

17 hits is a lot worse than 1. =P

 

(3)... a big 8d10 normal dmg super-fist (avg. STUN dmg= 44)(avg. BODY dmg= 8)... This one's 80 AP so it should' date=' IMO, be much more potent than a 60 Ap attack.[/quote']

 

No, 8d10 normal dmg is not 80 AP. It is 56 AP. I have normal dmg d10s set at 7 AP ea. ... not 10 AP.

 

(4) 12d6 attack trickles 12 STUN past defenses and needs 6 hits to KO (realistically, more as the target will get PS 12 recoveries)

 

(5) 4d6 RKA averages 14 and 28, so does nothing. Bump that up to 14 and 42 (he always max'es the Stun multiple) and we get the 12d6 normal attack result.

 

The Stun Only attack should win virtually every time - statistically, the probability he will lose is insignificant. He needs only one hit and the battle is over, and even the guy with 1/3 more AP's needs 4 hits minimum to down him.

 

This is why I brought up initiative & the cost of DEX, before.

 

And these aren't the max'ed out STUN or BOD attacks. Those remain d2's' date=' averaging 90 STUN (one shot victory) or 45 BOD (two shot kill).[/quote']

 

45d2... as if I had 45 coins in my pocket. =P

 

I think you've created a strong potential for instant death (or near to it) attacks and rendered Entangles' date=' Automatons, Barriers and other "take BOD only" constructs near useless. If that's your definition of "an alternate to killing attacks", mission accomplished.[/quote']

 

lol

 

Seriously, thanks.

 

The Killer Shrike model (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/armamentsNotes.aspx#DnDLists)

 

Killer Strike is converting everything into textbook d6 HERO, right? That's like the opposite of what I'm doing.

 

Hm... no. For a second I thought I was converting HERO into other games. What I'm doing is not any kind of game conversion. I'm modifying HERO.

 

How about the following:

 

d20 STUN Roll/BOD Count

 

1/0

2 or 3/1

4 - 6/2

7 - 14/3

15-17/4

18 or 19/5

20/6

 

That's a 5% chance of 6 BOD, quite a bit better than the 1 in 216 chance of 3d6 maxing out, so larger dice will still be more volatile for the same averages, but we're reasonably close. That makes a 1d20 normal attack cost 15 points, and a 1d20 killing attack costs 45. Easy to extrapolate - for any type of attack, 1d20 costs the same as 3d6.

 

*What about this (below) extrapolated from The Main Man's train of thought a couple pages back? Is this something like what you are talking about?

 

d2

1 - 0 BODY

2 - 1 BODY (1 BODY, 2 STUN at maximum effect and cost [1+1] 2 active points per die.)

 

d3

1 - 0 BODY

2-3 - 1 BODY (1 BODY, 3 STUN at maximum effect and cost [1+1.5] 2.5 active points per die.)

 

d4

1 - 0 BODY

2-4 - 1 BODY (1 BODY, 4 STUN at maximum effect and cost [1+2] 3 active points per die.)

 

d6

1 - 0 BODY

2-5 - 1 BODY

6 - 2 BODY (2 BODY, 6 STUN at maximum effect and cost [2+3] 5 active points per die.)

 

d8

1 - 0 BODY

2-5 - 1 BODY

6-7 - 2 BODY

8 - 3 BODY (3 BODY, 8 STUN at maximum effect and cost [3+4] 7 active points per die.)

 

d10

1 - 0 BODY

2-5 - 1 BODY

6-7 - 2 BODY

8-10 - 3 BODY (3 BODY, 10 STUN at maximum effect and cost [3+5] 8 active points per die.)

 

d12

1 - 0 BODY

2-5 - 1 BODY

6-7 - 2 BODY

8-11 - 3 BODY

12 - 4 BODY (4 BODY, 12 STUN at maximum effect and cost [4+6] 10 active points per die.)

 

d20

1 - 0 BODY

2-5 - 1 BODY

6-7 - 2 BODY

8-11 - 3 BODY

12-13 - 4 BODY

14-17 - 5 BODY

18-19 - 6 BODY

20 - 7 BODY (7 BODY, 20 STUN at maximum effect and cost [7+10] 17 active points per die.)

 

D100

1 - 0 BODY

2-5 - 1 BODY

6-7 - 2 BODY

8-11 - 3 BODY

12-13 - 4 BODY

14-17 - 5 BODY

18-19 - 6 BODY

20 - 7 BODY

 

21 - 7 BODY

22-25 - 8 BODY

26-27 - 9 BODY

28-31 - 10 BODY

32-33 - 11 BODY

34-37 -12 BODY

38-39 - 13 BODY

40 - 14 BODY

 

41 - 14 BODY

42-45 - 15 BODY

46-47 - 16 BODY

48-51 - 17 BODY

52-53 - 18 BODY

54-57 - 19 BODY

58-59 - 20 BODY

60 - 21 BODY

 

61 - 21 BODY

62-65 - 22 BODY

66-67 - 23 BODY

68-71 - 24 BODY

72-73 - 25 BODY

74-77 - 26 BODY

78-79 - 27 BODY

80 - 28 BODY

 

81 - 28 BODY

82-85 - 29 BODY

86-87 - 30 BODY

88-91 - 31 BODY

92-93 - 32 BODY

94-97 - 33 BODY

98-99 - 34 BODY

100 - 35 BODY (35 BODY, 100 STUN at maximum effect and cost [35+50] 85 active points per die.)

 

 

 

 

Your "inverted"' date=' BOD only and STUN only system makes for more effective focused attacks on an AP basis simply because the baseline system does not reduce AP when one type of damage is reduced, but only reduces real cost.[/quote']

 

Yes. I am exploiting the fact that the same defenses are used to protect against both STUN & BODY damage. Thanks for making this explicate. I wasn't sure how to say it.

 

This is a similar issue to the old Hand Attack conundrum - allowing a 20d6 Hand Attack as a 60 AP power meant a lot more damage could be done than with other 60 AP powers' date=' so Hand Attack got modified to a limitation instead of a reduced AP cost. You could accomplish the same thing (which I think a lot of us did) by imposing a DC cap, not just an AP cap, so if you can't have more than 9 DC's, you can't have more than 3d20 normal damage, or a 1d20 KA whether it does both SUN and BOD normally, does STUN only or does BOD only.[/quote']

 

This is EXACTLY why I originally titled this thread "Modifiers" instead of "Active Points". Exactly!

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

I dunno. Are they?

 

They ought to.

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

Summery of PolygonHERO:

 

Key

A) Normal Damage Attack Dice

Killing Attack Dice

 

C) Inverted Normal Damage Attack Dice

D) Inverted Killing Attack Dice

 

E) "Stun Only" Normal Damage Attack Dice

F) "Body Only" Inverted Normal Damage Attack Dice

 

G) "Abnormal Body" Damage Attack Dice

H) "Abnormal Stun" Inverted Damage Attack Dice

 

 

 

 

Active Points

d2 (A: 3)(B: 5) (C: 3)(D: 7) (E: 1)(F: 2) (G: 2)(H: 2.5)

d3 (A: 3.5)(B: 7.5)(C: 4)(D: 10.5)(E: 1.5)(F: 3)(G: 2.5)(H: 3.5)

d4 (A: 4)(B: 10) (C: 5)(D: 14) (E: 2)(F: 4) (G: 3)(H: 4.5)

 

d6 (A: 5)(B: 15) (C: 7)(D: 21) (E: 3)(F: 6) (G: 5)(H: 7)

 

d8 (A: 6)(B: 20) (C: 9)(D: 28) (E: 4)(F: 8) (G: 7)(H: 9.5)

d10 (A: 7)(B: 25) (C: 11)(D: 35) (E: 5)(F: 10) (G: 8)(H: 11.5)

d12 (A: 8)(B: 30) (C: 13)(D: 42) (E: 6)(F: 12) (G: 10)(H: 14)

d20 (A: 12)(B: 50) (C: 21)(D: 70) (E: 10)(F: 20) (G: 17)(H: 23.5)

d100 (A: 52)(B: 250)(C: 101)(D: 350)(E: 50)(F: 100)(G: 85)(H: 117.5)

 

 

 

"Abnormal Body" Chart (use also as "Abnormal Stun" Chart)

1 - 0 BODY

2 - 1 BODY [maximum roll for d2]

3 - 1 BODY [maximum roll for d3]

4 - 1 BODY [maximum roll for d4]

5 - 1 BODY

6 - 2 BODY [maximum roll for d6]

7 - 2 BODY

8 - 3 BODY [maximum roll for d8]

9 - 3 BODY

10 - 3 BODY [maximum roll for d10]

11 - 3 BODY

12 - 4 BODY [maximum roll for d12]

13 - 4 BODY

14-17 - 5 BODY

18-19 - 6 BODY

20 - 7 BODY [maximum roll for d20]

 

21 - 7 BODY

22-25 - 8 BODY

26-27 - 9 BODY

28-31 - 10 BODY

32-33 - 11 BODY

34-37 -12 BODY

38-39 - 13 BODY

40 - 14 BODY

 

41 - 14 BODY

42-45 - 15 BODY

46-47 - 16 BODY

48-51 - 17 BODY

52-53 - 18 BODY

54-57 - 19 BODY

58-59 - 20 BODY

60 - 21 BODY

 

61 - 21 BODY

62-65 - 22 BODY

66-67 - 23 BODY

68-71 - 24 BODY

72-73 - 25 BODY

74-77 - 26 BODY

78-79 - 27 BODY

80 - 28 BODY

 

81 - 28 BODY

82-85 - 29 BODY

86-87 - 30 BODY

88-91 - 31 BODY

92-93 - 32 BODY

94-97 - 33 BODY

98-99 - 34 BODY

100 - 35 BODY [maximum roll for d100]

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

For dark/gritty campaigns' date=' heal-bots ought to be nerf'd somehow to keep them from being obligatory party members. [/quote']

 

If by "dark/gritty", you mean "keep three backup characters handy", the ability to get 45 BOD on average from a 60 AP attack should do the trick. [30d2 BOD only normal dice] If you want to keep characters for more than a combat or two, better have the ResurrectionDroids handy.

 

From my experience' date=' in games like this, initiative is God. Everything else is either overkill or underwhelming. No matter how big & heavy your character is, something in the game can take you out in one shot. [/quote']

 

So all we've done is create a model where every character should have a 30d2 BOD attack in a Multipower with a 60d2 STUN attack (either I'll do 45 BOD or 90 STUN - either should end the fight), Regen with Resurrect (sooner or later you won't get the drop on your opponent), enough OCV to hit and hopefully enough DCV to be missed, and pump the rest into Lightning Reflexes.

 

If I cast a sleep spell' date=' I expect it to put people to sleep sometimes. [/quote']

 

If I invest the time to build a character, I expect it to last through more than one phase of combat.

 

Oh, dude... I totally forgot to employ d100s in my example. Here's an elegant one:

 

1d100 "Stun Only" norm dmg (avg. STUN dmg= 50.5)... (50 AP) PLUS 1d10 "Body Only" inverted norm dmg (avg. BODY dmg= 5.5)... (10 AP) = 60 active points

 

Why? For the same price you can have 50d2 STUN Only to do 75 STUN and 5d2 BOD to average 7.5. But who cares? The BOD will be incidental, so spend the same 60 points on a Multipower with the 50d2 STUNner and 25d2 BOD only (average 37.5 BOD) to carve them up once they're KO'd.

 

17 hits is a lot worse than 1. =P

 

Sure is - so maybe the costs should not be identical.

 

This is why I brought up initiative & the cost of DEX' date=' before. [/quote']

 

If everyone needs +50 DEX to be a viable character, pricing is irrelevant - it's a "Viable Character Tax".

 

45d2... as if I had 45 coins in my pocket. =P

 

50 cents for a roll of pennies is cheaper than one die.

 

Killer Strike is converting everything into textbook d6 HERO' date=' right? That's like the opposite of what I'm doing. [/quote']

 

Using killer Shrike's conversion, you can just as easily not convert the dice themselves. Just use 1d20 at the same cost as 3d6 and reasonable averages result.

 

And I'm still not clear on your objectives, so I have no idea what you're trying to do, much less whether your system accomplishes those objectives. So what are you trying to do?

 

*What about this (below) extrapolated from The Main Man's train of thought a couple pages back? Is this something like what you are talking about?

 

After a fashion. I'm trying to achieve the same average and maximums, albeit with a bit more volatility. I'm ignoring d100 as they are overly expensive, and I'm lazy (they aren't on KS' list). An average of 50.5 is just shy 14.5d6, so call it 72 AP for 1d100 normal damage. It should max out at about 29 BOD, and average 14 and a bit. We could go with:

 

1 = 0

2-3 = 1

4-5 = 2

6-7 = 3

8-9 = 4

10-11 = 5

12-13 = 16

14-15 = 7

16-17 = 8

18-19 = 9

20-22 = 10

23-26 = 11

27-31 = 12

32-37 = 13

38-50 = 14

51-63 = 15

64-69 = 16

70-74 = 17

75-78 = 18

79-81 = 19

82-83 = 20

84-85 = 21

86-87 = 22

88-89 = 23

90-91 = 24

92-93 = 25

94-95 = 26

96-97 = 27

98-99 = 28

100 = 29

 

We average 14.5 and trend to the center of the range. Volatility can be increased by narrowing 14-15 and widening other numbers, or reduced by reducing the incidence of extremes and making the center numbers a wider range.

 

More volatility gives more randomness to combat, and shortens the lifespan of PC's as sooner or later they get unlucky.

 

Yes. I am exploiting the fact that the same defenses are used to protect against both STUN & BODY damage. Thanks for making this explicate. I wasn't sure how to say it.

 

The current mechanisms reduce BOD rolled, and have characters with more STUN than BOD. If BOD rolled is enhanced, then characters need to consider much higher BOD (and/or lower STUN) or accept a much higher death toll.

 

Looking down the chart, your d100 will average 50.5 STUN and (I think) 17.11 BOD (may not have added right). Your average and max are both quite a bit up from the comparable d6's. As well, your price for 1d100 is considerably lower than the 72 point cost for a comparable average on d6's. However, your charge for a killing attack d100 is considerably more (almost 5x the cost of a normal attack, rather than the conventional 3x multiple).

 

If your goal is a system which favours certain polygons over others, mission accomplished. If you were seeking balance between them, not so much. But maybe none of your players will do the math - let us know how the playtest goes!

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

I'm going to look at KS's stuff some more.

 

If the standard effects were determined by die averages... everything would be perfect.

 

[[under-construction]]]

Die (Average)

d2 (1.5)--------> (?) active points

d3 (2)

d4 (2.5)

 

d6 (3.5)-----> 5 active points

 

d8 (4.5)--------> (?)x3 active points

d10 (5.5)

d12 (6.5)

d20 (10.5)------> 15 active points

d100 (50.5)

 

So...

3.5 x 3 = 10.5

This is like saying, "3d6 = 1d20 = 15 active points," which I dig.

 

So...

1.5 x 3 = 4.5

This is like saying, "3d2 = 1d8 = (?)x3 active points." I dig this, too. I need to work it out... when I have more time.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

This is a lot easier, IMO, for attacks that only count the total on the dice, such as Killing Attacks (multiplied by another roll or a location, they still come to the same average) than where there are two different counts.

 

For example, the d2 averages 1.5 STUN, so 2 1/3 d3 average 3.5, equalling a d6. But that means they also need to average about 0.43 BOD per die.

 

Maybe that sets the price of a d2 of normal damage at 2.25, they do the roll as damage and count 0 BOD or 1 BOD. 61 AP is 27 dice (d2 are hard because they're so granular) for an average of 40.5 STUN and 13.5 BOD, a bit less STUN and a bit more BOD than the same AP in d6's.

 

The d4 will average 2.5 STUN, so roughly 3.5 points per 1d4. But they need to average less than 1 BOD - more like .71. Maybe 1 = 0, and 2-4 equals 1. 17d4 then costs 59.5 points, as close as we'll get to 60, averages 42.5 STUN and 12.75 BOD - just marginally better than d6's.

 

Skipping over a few, a d12 average 6.5 STUN, so about 9.25 per 1d6 seems about right. It should average 1.85 BOD and top out at 4 (seems more appropriate than 3), generally coming up 2 (2d6 will come up 0 once in 36 rolls and 4 once in 36 rolls - the d12 will have to come up 4 1 in 12 rolls if it's possible at all). So maybe that's 0 on a 1, 1 on a 2, 3 or 4, 2 on a 5 - 10, 3 on 11 and 4 on 12. That's an average of 1.83, as close as we can get. It leans heavily towards that average roll of 2 (50% chance, same as 2d6). A 0 or a 4 is an 8.33% chance each (2.78% on 2d6), a 3 has a 2.83% chance (22.22% on 2d6) and a 1 comes up 16.67% (22.22% on 2d6), so the d12 is a bit more likely to get an extreme result, and less likely to be a bit above or below average.

 

The more you round the dice costs, though, the more the averages will drift. KS' chart has the advantage of working with 15 point dice, so the rounding would be less extreme.

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

This is interesting. While looking for common multiples for the averages, I saw this:

 

7d2 = (1.5)x7 = 10.5 = (3.5)x3 = 3d6 = 15 active points "even"

7d3 = (2)x7 = 14 = (3.5)x4 = 4d6 = 20 active points "even"

7d4 = (2.5)x7 = 17.5 = (3.5)x5 = 5d6 = 25 active points "even"

...

7d8 = (4.5)x7 = 31.5 = (3.5)x9 = 9d6 = 45 active points "even"

7d10 = (5.5)x7 = 38.5 = (3.5)x11 = 11d6 = 55 active points "even"

7d12 = (6.5)x7 = 45.5 = (3.5)x13 = 13d6 = 65 active points "even"

7d20 = (10.5)x7 = 73.5 = (3.5)x21 = 21d6 = 105 active points "even"

7d100 = (50.5)x7 = 353.5 = (3.5)x101 = 101d6 = 505 active points "even"

 

Anyhow. So...

 

Normal Damage Attack Dice

d2 = 7/15 = 2.14285714... active points

d3 = 7/20 = 2.85714286... active points

d4 = 7/25 = 3.57142857... active points

...

d8 = 7/45 = 6.42857143... active points

d10 = 7/55 = 7.85714286... active points

d12 = 7/65 = 9.28571429... active points

d20 = 7/105 = 15 active points "even"

d100 = 7/505 = 72.1428571... active points

 

Killing Attack Dice

d2 = 6.428... active points

d3 = 8.571... active points

d4 = 10.71... active points

...

d8 = 19.28... active points

d10 = 23.57... active points

d12 = 27.85... active points

d20 = 45 active points "even"

d100 = 216.4... active points

 

So!

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

(Active Points): number & type of dice... based on average rolls

(5): 1d6

(10): 2d6

(15): 7d2, 3d6, 1d20

(20): 7d3, 4d6

(25): 7d4, 5d6

(30): 14d2, 6d6, 2d20

(35): 7d6

(40): 14d3, 8d6

(45): 21d2, 9d6, 7d8, 3d20

(50): 14d4, 10d6

(55): 11d6, 7d10

(60): 28d2, 21d3, 12d6, 4d20

(65): 13d6, 7d12

(70): 14d6

(75): 35d2, 21d4, 15d6, 5d20

(80): 28d3, 16d6

(85): 17d6

(90): 42d2, 18d6, 14d8, 6d20

(95): 19d6

(100): 35d3, 28d4, 20d6

(105): 49d2, 21d6, 7d20

 

[...]

 

(505): 101d6, 7d100