Damage Die Type Modifiers

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

I'm basing my numbers on standard effect rolls rather than die averages.

 

To clarify, do you plan on requiring the players use standard effect? The impact of these rounding down a bit is exacerbated in smaller dice. 12d6 Standard Effect = 36 STUN, 12 BOD. I get 40d2 for 40 STUN and 40 BOD(!) for the same price. Or 24d3 for the same 36 STUN and 24 BOD.

 

I think the biggest issue is BOD - the low dice will drop opponents like flies (and Does Knockback becomes pretty potent too) while the higher dice will bounce off defenses, but also be useless against entangles, barriers, automatons, etc. "Well, my Great Sword is useless to chop through this door. Someone pass me a hatpin".

 

I see nothing wrong with adding d6's to the odd size dice if that's the desired approach. But why not 5 AP worth of the dice I'm currently rolling for each DC? I assume added DC's will work the same for STR additions.

[Tasha]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

The biggest problem with using bigger dice with the 1 = 0 and big number = 2 is that larger dice will do less body than the same active points in D6 attacks. Also the smaller dice will do MORE body than the bigger dice.

 

To fix that issue. I would simply divide the Stun rolled by 5 and add +1 body for every max die rolled and -1 for every 1. ie 5d10 is rolled with 10, 8, 5 , 1, 1 for 25 stun rolled and 4 body (25/5 = 5 -1 (2 1's rolled vs 1 '10'). Most people can divide by 5 in their head and pairing off 1 and max die rolls is built into the system.

 

D3 is actually covered in the rules as they stand. They only do body on a roll of 3. I would make D2's work the same.

 

I actually like the base cost of the ability to go up rather than it being an Advantage. The problem with making the poly dice Advantages is when you add other advantages to the mix, you have a power that costs less than the same power that was purchased with base points. Making it quite powerful to bump your D6 powers to D8 or D10s.

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

To clarify' date=' do you plan on requiring the players use standard effect?[/quote']

 

No.

 

The impact of these rounding down a bit is exacerbated in smaller dice. 12d6 Standard Effect = 36 STUN, 12 BOD. I get 40d2 for 40 STUN and 40 BOD(!) for the same price. Or 24d3 for the same 36 STUN and 24 BOD.

 

I think the biggest issue is BOD - the low dice will drop opponents like flies (and Does Knockback becomes pretty potent too) while the higher dice will bounce off defenses, but also be useless against entangles, barriers, automatons, etc. "Well, my Great Sword is useless to chop through this door. Someone pass me a hatpin".

 

There is that.

 

I see nothing wrong with adding d6's to the odd size dice if that's the desired approach. But why not 5 AP worth of the dice I'm currently rolling for each DC? I assume added DC's will work the same for STR additions.

 

Fully. =)

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

The biggest problem with using bigger dice with the 1 = 0 and big number = 2 is that larger dice will do less body than the same active points in D6 attacks. Also the smaller dice will do MORE body than the bigger dice.

 

That's it.

 

To fix that issue. I would simply divide the Stun rolled by 5 and add +1 body for every max die rolled and -1 for every 1. ie 5d10 is rolled with 10' date=' 8, 5 , 1, 1 for 25 stun rolled and 4 body (25/5 = 5 -1 (2 1's rolled vs 1 '10'). Most people can divide by 5 in their head and pairing off 1 and max die rolls is built into the system.[/quote']

 

I think changing the stun multiplier is a great idea.

 

D3 is actually covered in the rules as they stand. They only do body on a roll of 3. I would make D2's work the same.

 

This is true and I like this, too. I abstracted from the d6's characteristics without taking this into consideration.

 

d2s & d3s aren't real polygons, anyhow. =P

 

I actually like the base cost of the ability to go up rather than it being an Advantage. The problem with making the poly dice Advantages is when you add other advantages to the mix' date=' you have a power that costs less than the same power that was purchased with base points. Making it quite powerful to bump your D6 powers to D8 or D10s.[/quote']

 

I like that, too.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

First, if the plan is not to use standard effect (a silly question on my part, in hindsight - if you're not rolling, who cares about the size of the dice - we just price 3 STUN + 1 BOD as 5 points and carry on), then the averages are more meaningful than any standard effects. That means a 40d2 attack does 60, rather than 40, STUN and 40 BOD.

 

The BOD discrepancy is probably the bigger issue - STUN can be fixed by pricing and BOD could be extrapolated. For example, the d3 under existing rules does 1 BOD on a 3, otherwise none. 24d3 will average 48 STUN and 8 BOD for 60 points, more STUN and less BOD than 12d6.

 

The d2 will likely be "rolled" on a d6, so make it do BOD only on the actual rolls of 6. 40d2 still averages 60 STUN, way more than 12d6, but it's now down to 6 2/3 average BOD. Make it BOD on 5-6 and it will average 13 1/3 BOD.

 

A d4 might do 0 BOD on a 1, and 1 BOD on a 2-4 (or 0 on a 1-2, 1 on 3 and 2 on 4 if you want a potentially greater spread). 20d4 will average 50 STUN (quite a bit more than 12d6) and 15 BOD (also well over 1d6).

 

For bigger dice, perhaps more than the top number does 2. Maybe some really high numbers get 3 BOD. It should not be hard to get similar BOD averages and spreads.

 

The volatility of very large dice could be a problem even if the averages are fixed. 15d6 averages 52.5 STUN and 15 BOD. A d100 averages 50.5, but stands an 11% chance of rolling 90+stun (90 - 100), so one roll in about 9, where 15d6 has a bit under 1 in 470 billion chance of rolling 90 Stun.

 

Other than throwing different sided dice, I'm not sure what the purpose of the exercise is, so I'm not sure whether allowing characters to choose a different level of volatility is the desired result. I would, however, suggest that pricing the various dice at a level that keeps average damage comparable to the d6 is necessary if you want to maintain a "d6 standard". Under the prices set above, the smaller dice are a much better deal, so there's no reason for characters to take the higher dice (other than volatility at the extreme end), and every reason to take the lower ones.

[The Main Man]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

To elaborate on my chart from early on, I do think BODY damage should be based on what the STUN rolled is.

 

1 - 0 BODY

2-5 - 1 BODY

6 - 2 BODY

 

If we go off of this, we just add 6 each time to determine the BODY score for higher dice.

 

7 - 2 BODY

8-11 - 3 BODY

12 - 4 BODY

 

13 - 4 BODY

14-17 - 5 BODY

18 - 6 BODY

 

So a D20 ought to do 7 BODY, 20 STUN at maximum effect and cost (7+10=17 CP) per die.

 

A D100 ought to do 17 BODY, 100 STUN at maximum effect, and thus cost (17+50=67 CP) per die.

 

Killing dice are easy - just triple the cost.

 

Let's say we took 3d6 Normal damage versus 1d6 Killing damage.

 

That's a maximum of 6 BODY, 18 STUN versus... 6 BODY, 18 STUN.

 

And how much would that cost in CHAR? 6+9=15 CP. Wunderbar.

[The Main Man]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

So how do each of the dice costs compare? Let's look at, say, 60 points' worth - 12 Damage Classes

 

That's...

 

30d2 - 30 BODY, 60 STUN (+6 BODY, -12 STUN, no net difference)

20d4 - 20 BODY, 80 STUN (-4 BODY, +8 STUN, no net difference)

12d6 - 24 BODY, 72 STUN (standard)

8.5d8 (59.5 CP) - 25 BODY, 68 STUN (+1 BODY, -4 STUN, -1 net difference)

7.5d10 - 22 BODY, 75 STUN (-2 BODY, +3 STUN, -0.5 net difference)

6d12 - 24 BODY, 72 STUN (standard)

3.5d20 (59.5 CP) - 24 BODY, 70 STUN (-0 BODY, -2 STUN, -1 net difference)

1d100 (67 CP) - 17 BODY, 100 STUN (-7 BODY, +28 STUN, +7 net difference)

 

All in all, some dice do slightly more in one area and slightly less in the other, but they are generally balanced between eachother.

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

d2

1 - 0 BODY

2 - 1 BODY (1 BODY, 2 STUN at maximum effect and cost (1+1=2 CP) per die.)

 

d3

1 - 0 BODY

2-3 - 1 BODY (1 BODY, 3 STUN at maximum effect and cost (1+1.5=2.5 CP) per die.)

 

d4

1 - 0 BODY

2-4 - 1 BODY (1 BODY, 4 STUN at maximum effect and cost (1+2=3 CP) per die.)

 

d6

1 - 0 BODY

2-5 - 1 BODY

6 - 2 BODY (2 BODY, 6 STUN at maximum effect and cost (2+3=5 CP) per die.)

 

d8

1 - 0 BODY

2-5 - 1 BODY

6-7 - 2 BODY

8 - 3 BODY (3 BODY, 8 STUN at maximum effect and cost (3+4=7 CP) per die.)

 

d10

1 - 0 BODY

2-5 - 1 BODY

6-7 - 2 BODY

8-10 - 3 BODY (3 BODY, 10 STUN at maximum effect and cost (3+5=8 CP) per die.)

 

d12

1 - 0 BODY

2-5 - 1 BODY

6-7 - 2 BODY

8-11 - 3 BODY

12 - 4 BODY (4 BODY, 12 STUN at maximum effect and cost (4+6=10 CP) per die.)

 

d20

1 - 0 BODY

2-5 - 1 BODY

6-7 - 2 BODY

8-11 - 3 BODY

12-13 - 4 BODY

14-17 - 5 BODY

18-19 - 6 BODY

20 - 7 BODY (7 BODY, 20 STUN at maximum effect and cost (7+10=17 CP) per die.)

 

D100

1 - 0 BODY

2-5 - 1 BODY

6-7 - 2 BODY

8-11 - 3 BODY

12-13 - 4 BODY

14-17 - 5 BODY

18-19 - 6 BODY

20 - 7 BODY

 

21 - 7 BODY

22-25 - 8 BODY

26-27 - 9 BODY

28-31 - 10 BODY

32-33 - 11 BODY

34-37 -12 BODY

38-39 - 13 BODY

40 - 14 BODY

 

41 - 14 BODY

42-45 - 15 BODY

46-47 - 16 BODY

48-51 - 17 BODY

52-53 - 18 BODY

54-57 - 19 BODY

58-59 - 20 BODY

60 - 21 BODY

 

61 - 21 BODY

62-65 - 22 BODY

66-67 - 23 BODY

68-71 - 24 BODY

72-73 - 25 BODY

74-77 - 26 BODY

78-79 - 27 BODY

80 - 28 BODY

 

81 - 28 BODY

82-85 - 29 BODY

86-87 - 30 BODY

88-91 - 31 BODY

92-93 - 32 BODY

94-97 - 33 BODY

98-99 - 34 BODY

100 - 35 BODY (35 BODY, 100 STUN at maximum effect and cost (35+50=85 CP) per die.)

 

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

So how do each of the dice costs compare? Let's look at, say, 60 points' worth - 12 Damage Classes

 

That's...

 

30d2 - 30 BODY, 60 STUN (+6 BODY, -12 STUN, no net difference)

20d4 - 20 BODY, 80 STUN (-4 BODY, +8 STUN, no net difference)

 

Not sure how characters are built in your games. The assumption of maximum damage seems a bit out there.

 

I think the d2 concepty was 1 = 0 BOD, 2 = 2 BOD, but dropping that makes sense to me. But an average of 45 STUN and 15 BOD is still better on both counts than the 42 STUN, 12 BOD of 12d6. Averaqing 50 Stun and 20 BOD with 20d4 seems pretty good compared to 12d6 (8 extra Stun and 8 extra BOD).

 

Meanwhile, 6d12 sacrifices 3 average Stun. 1d20 bumps up STUN 8.5 on average and a lot more past defenses due to volatility.

[The Main Man]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

Not sure how characters are built in your games. The assumption of maximum damage seems a bit out there.

 

I think the d2 concepty was 1 = 0 BOD, 2 = 2 BOD, but dropping that makes sense to me. But an average of 45 STUN and 15 BOD is still better on both counts than the 42 STUN, 12 BOD of 12d6. Averaqing 50 Stun and 20 BOD with 20d4 seems pretty good compared to 12d6 (8 extra Stun and 8 extra BOD).

 

Meanwhile, 6d12 sacrifices 3 average Stun. 1d20 bumps up STUN 8.5 on average and a lot more past defenses due to volatility.

2 BODY, 6 STUN, the maximum effect for 1 Normal Damage Class, which costs 5 Base Points each, is the same cost as buying those same CHAR. I find this to not only be an interesting correlation, but a useful one for determining the costs for alternate dice.

 

To me, tampering with the standard d6 basis of the system is a natural entrance into "!" Territory, but I believe that if the maximum effect is dismissed, the costs will be skewed and inaccurate.

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

2 BODY' date=' 6 STUN, the maximum effect for 1 Normal Damage Class, which costs 5 Base Points each, is the same cost as buying those same CHAR. I find this to not only be an interesting correlation, but a useful one for determining the costs for alternate dice.[/quote']

 

That is both interesting & useful. If...

 

1d6 Normal Stun (maximum BODY 2)(maximum STUN 6): 2+3= 5 active points.

 

Then perhaps...

 

1d10 "Normal Endurance" (maximum BODY 2)(maximum END 10): 2+2= 4 active points?

 

1d20 "Abnormal Endurance" (maximum BODY 2)(maximum STUN 7)(maximum END 20): 2+3.5+4= 8.5 active points?

 

To me' date=' tampering with the standard d6 basis of the system is a natural entrance into "!" Territory, but I believe that if the maximum effect is dismissed, the costs will be skewed and inaccurate.[/quote']

 

It can be no other way.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

2 BODY, 6 STUN, the maximum effect for 1 Normal Damage Class, which costs 5 Base Points each, is the same cost as buying those same CHAR. I find this to not only be an interesting correlation, but a useful one for determining the costs for alternate dice.

 

To me, tampering with the standard d6 basis of the system is a natural entrance into "!" Territory, but I believe that if the maximum effect is dismissed, the costs will be skewed and inaccurate.

 

I find averages as or more important. I also find that, if we change the BOD:Stun ratio, we get into dangerous territory. I note that "Done no BOD" is a -0 limitation in Hero, but that should reduce 1d6 to 3 points in your model.

 

Would you allow a reverse 1d6 (1 - 6 BOD, and 0, 1 or 2 STUN counted like BOD) for 7 points?

 

I agree that moving into other dice carries some serious game balance issues - look at the ones discussed for three pages here, and we haven't really resolved anything.

[The Main Man]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

I find averages as or more important. I also find that' date=' if we change the BOD:Stun ratio, we get into dangerous territory. I note that "Done no BOD" is a -0 limitation in Hero, but that should reduce 1d6 to 3 points [/quote']

here, I'll explore average affect on the same damage classes and figure out what that essential cost breakdown would be in CHAR:

 

30d2 (1.5/d2) - 15 BODY, 45 STUN (+3 BODY, +3 STUN, +4.5 net difference)

20d4 (2.5/d4) - 20 BODY, 50 STUN (+8 BODY, +8 STUN, +12 net difference)

12d6 (3.5/d6) - 12 BODY, 42 STUN (standard)

8.5d8 (4.5/d8) - 9 BODY, 36 STUN (-3 BODY, -6 STUN, -6 net difference)

7.5d10 (5.5/d10) - 11.5 BODY, 41.625 STUN (-0.5 BODY, -0.375 STUN, -0.875 net difference)

6d12 (6.5/d12) - 12 BODY, 39 STUN (-0 BODY, -3 STUN, -1.5 net difference)

 

Judging off of these, and without going into Killing attacks for the time being, it looks like I was close on the higher end than the lower end. It's getting late though, but I want to look into price adjustments based on average effect at a later time. A single point might make a big difference on the heavily skewed dice.

 

Would you allow a reverse 1d6 (1 - 6 BOD, and 0, 1 or 2 STUN counted like BOD) for 7 points?

Since the minimum STUN damage is equal to BODY damage, no - a "reverse d6" would do 6 Body, 6 STUN at maximum, so 9 CP, which is close to 1d6 K with Decreased Multiplier.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

it looks like I was close on the higher end than the lower end. It's getting late though' date=' but I want to look into price adjustments based on average effect at a later time. A single point might make a big difference on the heavily skewed dice.[/quote']

 

Agreed - it's the smaller dice that seem to have a major advantage.

 

Since the minimum STUN damage is equal to BODY damage' date=' no - a "reverse d6" would do 6 Body, 6 STUN at maximum, so 9 CP, which is close to 1d6 K with Decreased Multiplier.[/quote']

 

OK, let's look at that possibility - 1d6 that does 6 BOD, 6 STUN at maximum priced at 9 CP.

 

Normal attack - 12d6 for 42 Stun, 12 BOD on average, against a Standard Super (20 - 25 defenses) gets 17 - 22 STUN and no BOD past defenses.

 

KA - 4d6 averages 14 BOD, 28 STUN and gets 0 - 2 BOD (12 - 18 rDEF) and 3 - 8 STUN past defenses (KA's aren't great in Supers)

 

BOD=STUN attack does 6 1/2d6 (54 + 6 AP) for an average of 23 BOD and 23 STUN - 0 to 3 past defenses, so actually weaker, although getting a bit more BOD past at low points

 

BOD=STUN KA costs 27 per d6, where a KA with a 1x Stun Multiple is priced much lower, but still has 15 AP per 1d6, so difficult to compare. Neither will be effective in Supers. 3 DC maxes at 6 BOD, 6 STUN, so should cost the same 9 points per DC in your system. Looks like 2d6 + 1, so 8 BOD, 8 STUN average, getting no damage past defenses. But again, KA's are weak in Supers.

 

Bump down to Standard Heroic, and 6 DC

 

Normal attack - 6d6 for 21 Stun, 6 BOD on average, against 6 - 10 defenses, gets 11 - 15 STUN and no BOD past defenses.

 

KA - 2d6 averages 7 BOD, 14 STUN and gets 2 - 4 BOD (3 - 5 rDEF) and 4 - 8 STUN past defenses

 

BOD=STUN attack does 3d6 + 1 (27 + 3 AP) for an average of 11.5 BOD and STUN - 1.5 to 5.5 past defenses, so a bit weaker. Comparable on the BOD front, but not on the STUN front.

 

The KA, 1x Stun Mult again creates confusion. At 9 points per DC, we're getting 1d6 (+1 would be another 9), so pretty much useless.

 

Do I get to buy "Does No BOD blasts for 3 points per die? That's 20d6 in Supers and 10d6 in Standard Heroic, both of which seem pretty overpowered compared to the options above (45 - 50 STUN in Supers and 25 - 29 in Heroic should stun every time and be a one shot KO fairly often - 2 is definitely out of the fight).

[The Main Man]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

Agreed - it's the smaller dice that seem to have a major advantage.

 

 

 

OK, let's look at that possibility - 1d6 that does 6 BOD, 6 STUN at maximum priced at 9 CP.

 

Normal attack - 12d6 for 42 Stun, 12 BOD on average, against a Standard Super (20 - 25 defenses) gets 17 - 22 STUN and no BOD past defenses.

 

KA - 4d6 averages 14 BOD, 28 STUN and gets 0 - 2 BOD (12 - 18 rDEF) and 3 - 8 STUN past defenses (KA's aren't great in Supers)

 

BOD=STUN attack does 6 1/2d6 (54 + 6 AP) for an average of 23 BOD and 23 STUN - 0 to 3 past defenses, so actually weaker, although getting a bit more BOD past at low points

 

BOD=STUN KA costs 27 per d6, where a KA with a 1x Stun Multiple is priced much lower, but still has 15 AP per 1d6, so difficult to compare. Neither will be effective in Supers. 3 DC maxes at 6 BOD, 6 STUN, so should cost the same 9 points per DC in your system. Looks like 2d6 + 1, so 8 BOD, 8 STUN average, getting no damage past defenses. But again, KA's are weak in Supers.

 

Bump down to Standard Heroic, and 6 DC

 

Normal attack - 6d6 for 21 Stun, 6 BOD on average, against 6 - 10 defenses, gets 11 - 15 STUN and no BOD past defenses.

 

KA - 2d6 averages 7 BOD, 14 STUN and gets 2 - 4 BOD (3 - 5 rDEF) and 4 - 8 STUN past defenses

 

BOD=STUN attack does 3d6 + 1 (27 + 3 AP) for an average of 11.5 BOD and STUN - 1.5 to 5.5 past defenses, so a bit weaker. Comparable on the BOD front, but not on the STUN front.

 

The KA, 1x Stun Mult again creates confusion. At 9 points per DC, we're getting 1d6 (+1 would be another 9), so pretty much useless.

 

Do I get to buy "Does No BOD blasts for 3 points per die? That's 20d6 in Supers and 10d6 in Standard Heroic, both of which seem pretty overpowered compared to the options above (45 - 50 STUN in Supers and 25 - 29 in Heroic should stun every time and be a one shot KO fairly often - 2 is definitely out of the fight).

On the one hand, I concede that my method would not be ideal for STUN Only as a modifier. On the other hand, I am not experimenting with reinventing the wheel, just with other ways to make the wheel work. That is, I'm working with the possibly emergent parallel between Damage Classes as they are versus CHAR costs, if perhaps pure coincidence, and not turning them on their ear, such as with "reverse d6's" which don't exist in the HERO system.

 

On the other hand, consider 1d6 of Killing Attack, -1 Decreased STUN Multiplier (-1/4), which would cost 12 CP

Standard: 3 BODY, 3 STUN

Avg: 3.5 BODY, 3.5 STUN

Max: 6 BODY, 12 STUN

 

So, while my method isn't perfect, it's still in the ball park and seems to provide a decent starting point.

 

 

 

 

Now let's look at d2 at 3 BP instead of 2, d4 at 4 BP instead of 3, and d8 at 6 BP instead of 7.

 

At 12 Damage Classes, that comes to...

 

20d2

 

Standard: 0 BODY, 20 STUN (-12 BODY, -16 STUN, -20 net cost difference)

Avg: 10 BODY, 30 STUN (-2 BODY, -12 STUN, -8 net cost difference)

Max: 20 BODY, 40 STUN (-4 BODY, -32 STUN, -20 net cost difference)

 

The d2 is too good at 2 BP per die, but it clearly stinks at 3 BP per die. Any deviation from here will only produce worse results. Coin Toss HERO seems to be a non-starter.

 

 

 

15d4

 

Standard: 15 BODY, 30 STUN (+3 BODY, -6 STUN, no net cost difference)

Avg: 15 BODY, 37.5 STUN (+3 BODY, -4.5 STUN, +0.75 net cost difference)

Max: 15 BODY, 60 STUN (-9 BODY, -12 STUN, -15 net cost difference)

 

I think the 4 BP d4 is much more balanced than the 3 BP d4. It would be the die of choice for good standard and average effect rolls, but hardly the dice you want for maximum effect.

 

 

 

10d8

 

Standard: 10 BODY, 40 STUN (-2 BODY, +4 STUN, no net cost difference)

Avg: 10 BODY, 45 STUN (-2 BODY, +3 STUN, -0.5 net cost difference)

Max: 30 BODY, 80 STUN (+6 BODY, +8 STUN, +10 net cost difference)

 

The d6 has an ever so slight edge against the d8 on the average effect, but the d8 reigns supreme at Maximum Effect. Whereas the d4 is better than the d6 at doing BODY on Average, the d8 is better than the d6 at doing STUN on average. I think it's better at 6 BP than 7.

 

 

Now all of this is considering Normal Damage Classes - STR dice, Hand-to-Hand Attack, and Blast all could work with these price structures.

 

I think Killing Attacks, Adjustment Powers, and Mental Powers would need their own examinations and price structures for each die type. I'll explore that later when I can.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

Now let's look at d2 at 3 BP instead of 2, d4 at 4 BP instead of 3, and d8 at 6 BP instead of 7.

 

At 12 Damage Classes, that comes to...

 

20d2

 

Standard: 0 BODY, 20 STUN (-12 BODY, -16 STUN, -20 net cost difference)

Avg: 10 BODY, 30 STUN (-2 BODY, -12 STUN, -8 net cost difference)

Max: 20 BODY, 40 STUN (-4 BODY, -32 STUN, -20 net cost difference)

 

The d2 is too good at 2 BP per die, but it clearly stinks at 3 BP per die. Any deviation from here will only produce worse results. Coin Toss HERO seems to be a non-starter.

 

Maybe 2.5 points per? That's 24d2 (average of 36 STUN, 12 BOD). Still light compared to 12d6. Do we really need d2's, though?

 

 

15d4

 

Standard: 15 BODY, 30 STUN (+3 BODY, -6 STUN, no net cost difference)

Avg: 15 BODY, 37.5 STUN (+3 BODY, -4.5 STUN, +0.75 net cost difference)

Max: 15 BODY, 60 STUN (-9 BODY, -12 STUN, -15 net cost difference)

 

I think the 4 BP d4 is much more balanced than the 3 BP d4. It would be the die of choice for good standard and average effect rolls, but hardly the dice you want for maximum effect.

 

The higher average BOD makes it the die of choice for Increased Knockback and Penetrating. Also for Flash, if we proceed on the basis that this is the cost for 1 DC of that die type.

 

10d8

 

Standard: 10 BODY, 40 STUN (-2 BODY, +4 STUN, no net cost difference)

Avg: 10 BODY, 45 STUN (-2 BODY, +3 STUN, -0.5 net cost difference)

Max: 30 BODY, 80 STUN (+6 BODY, +8 STUN, +10 net cost difference)

 

The d6 has an ever so slight edge against the d8 on the average effect, but the d8 reigns supreme at Maximum Effect. Whereas the d4 is better than the d6 at doing BODY on Average, the d8 is better than the d6 at doing STUN on average. I think it's better at 6 BP than 7.

 

If I want to KO my target (and none of these dice are punching BOD through Supers-type defenses anyway) the d8 is clearly my die of choice. Certainly the right die for NND's, AVAD's, etc. - where the BOD roll is meaningless.

 

Now all of this is considering Normal Damage Classes - STR dice, Hand-to-Hand Attack, and Blast all could work with these price structures.

 

I think Killing Attacks, Adjustment Powers, and Mental Powers would need their own examinations and price structures for each die type. I'll explore that later when I can.

 

I agree - average BOD is irrelevant for these attacks (they don't "count the BOD" in most cases - maybe for Penetrating). But that means a much more extensive pricing structure - Mental Blasts and Drains cost double, Killing Attacks and Transform cost triple is an easier meme (Aid and Dispel would be less easy multipliers).

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

Do we really need d2's' date=' though?[/quote']

 

It's a toss up for me.

 

[new]:

 

Here are what I believe to be the maximum effects for normal stun attacks:

 

1d2 (2 BODY, 2 STUN)

1d3 (2 BODY, 3 STUN)

1d4 (2 BODY, 4 STUN)

1d6 (2 BODY, 6 STUN)

1d8 (2 BODY, 8 STUN)

1d10 (2 BODY, 10 STUN)

1d12 (2 BODY, 12 STUN)

1d20 (2 BODY, 20 STUN)

1d100 (2 BODY, 100 STUN)

 

Extrapolating from the arbitrary fact that 2 BODY & 6 STUN together cost 5 character points, the price of 1 DC (1d6 "normal stun" attack)... here are my [new] numbers:

 

1d2: 2+1 = 3 active points

1d3: 2+1.5 = 3.5 active points

1d4: 2+2 = 4 active points

1d6: 2+3 = 5 active points (1 DC)

1d8: 2+4 = 6 active points

1d10: 2+5 = 7 active points

1d12: 2+6 = 8 active points

1d20: 2+10 = 12 active points

1d100: 2+50 = 52 active points

 

[edit]

 

Killing Attacks (max dmg):

 

1d2 (2 BODY, 6 STUN): 2+3 = 5 active points

1d3 (3 BODY, 9 STUN): 3+4.5 = 7.5 active points

1d4 (4 BODY, 12 STUN): 4+6 = 10 active points

1d6 (6 BODY, 18 STUN): 6+9 = 15 active points

1d8 (8 BODY, 24 STUN): 8+12 = 20 active points

1d10 (10 BODY, 30 STUN): 10+15 = 25 active points

1d12 (12 BODY, 36 STUN): 12+18 = 30 active points

1d20 (20 BODY, 60 STUN): 20+30 = 50 active points

1d100 (100 BODY, 300 STUN): 100+150 = 250 active points

 

The more I play with The Main Man's method, the more I like it.

[Ozymandias]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

It's a toss up for me.

 

*rimshot*?

[dmjalund]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

...to coin a phraise

[The Main Man]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

I think Hugh is right about Flash using the same price structure as Normal Damage when it congress to Sight Group Flash. I think non-Targeting Flashes can get away with the base die price -2 CP.

 

1d4 - 2 CP

1d6 - 3 CP

1d8 - 4 CP

1d10 - 6 CP

1d12 - 8 CP

 

As for Aid, I realized that Aid grants up to 6 CP and it costs... 6 CP per die. Whatever the maximum on the die is, that's your cost right there. I think Dispel is as easy as how Aid works, but divided in two

 

1d4 - Aid (4 CP); Dispel (2 CP)

1d6 - Aid (6 CP); Dispel (3 CP)

1d8 - Aid (8 CP); Dispel (4 CP)

1d10 - Aid (10 CP); Dispel (5 CP)

1d12 - Aid (12 CP); Dispel (6 CP)

1d20 - Aid (20 CP); Dispel (10 CP)

 

I'll have to look at Average effect later.

 

Not sure about Healing or Drain, but they should be able to use the same cost whatever it comes to.

 

Mental Blast though. Hm... Maybe it could work off the same price as Drain and Healing.

 

Mental Powers are still a mystery to me for now.

[Lucius]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

I like polyhedrals too.

 

But Hero was built from the ground up on cubes. I think grafting the other four regular polyhedrons onto its system will get weird and unbalanced results. I can understand the impulse but I don't see it working - and all the analysis in the thead so far just confirms that as far as I'm concerned.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that Lucius really does love all those regular three dimensional shapes - in a Platonic way of course.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

I'll put my comments in the quote rather than break up the flow

 

It's a toss up for me.

 

[new]:

 

Here are what I believe to be the maximum effects for normal stun attacks:

 

1d2 (2 BODY, 2 STUN)

1d3 (2 BODY, 3 STUN)

1d4 (2 BODY, 4 STUN)

1d6 (2 BODY, 5 STUN) Typo, I assume - 6 STUN

1d8 (2 BODY, 8 STUN)

1d10 (2 BODY, 10 STUN)

1d12 (2 BODY, 12 STUN)

1d20 (2 BODY, 20 STUN)

1d100 (2 BODY, 100 STUN)

 

Extrapolating from the arbitrary fact that 2 BODY & 4 STUN together cost 5 character points, the price of 1 DC (1d6 "normal stun" attack)... here are my [new] numbers: Isn't that 2 BOD and 6 STUN?

 

1d2: 2+1 = 3 active points 60 AP = 20d2 for an average of 20 BOD and 30 STUN. I'll use it for increased knockback, penetrating attacks and, in Heroic games, attacks that are expected to kill rather than stun. That average of 1 BOD per die beats a 4d6 Killing Attack by a substantial margin (although I also have to punch through normal defenses). Also great for automotons, Entangles and Barriers!

1d3: 2+1.5 = 3.5 active points 60 AP gets me 17d3 for an average of 34 Stun and 17 BOD - not eally worth it - I can get better STUN or better BOD with other choices.

1d4: 2+2 = 4 active points15d6 averages 37.5 STUN and 15 BOD - again, not worth it

1d6: 2+3 = 5 active points (1 DC)42 STUN and 12 BOD on average

1d8: 2+4 = 6 active points10d8 averages 45 STUN and 10 BOD - no point using d6 if the intent is to Stun

1d10: 2+5 = 7 active points8 1/2 d10 averages 47 STUN and 8.5 BOD - STUN still climbing

1d12: 2+6 = 8 active points7 1/2 d12 averages 49 STUN and 7.5 BOD, so the STUN continues to rise

1d20: 2+10 = 12 active points5d20 averages 52.5 STUN and 5 BOD, so I'm still leaning to higher dice to KO

1d100: 2+50 = 52 active pointsHard to get 60 AP - I guess 1d100 + 1d12, for 50.5 + 6.5 = 57 average STUN and 2 average BOD

 

So, I guess I want a Multipower with a 20d2 attack for when BOD is important and a 1d100 + 1d12 atatck when Stun is important. You're assuming both are of equal utility, but once I'm below defenses for BOD, it's useless even if I drop to doing no BOD, and I want the highest STUN possible in punching past a target's defenses

 

[edit]

 

Killing Attacks (max dmg):

BOD is key here, so I'm guessing high dice will win out

1d2 (2 BODY, 6 STUN): 2+3 = 5 active points 12d2 for an average of 12 BOD, 24 STUN - probably not

1d3 (3 BODY, 9 STUN): 3+4.5 = 7.5 active points 8d3 averages 16 BOD and 32 STUN - that's more BOD than a 4d6 KA, so my theory didn't hold up for long!

1d4 (4 BODY, 12 STUN): 4+6 = 10 active points 6d4 will average 15 BOD and 30 STUN, so we're sinking

1d6 (6 BODY, 18 STUN): 6+9 = 15 active points 14 BOD, 28 STUN

1d8 (8 BODY, 24 STUN): 8+12 = 20 active points 3d8 for 13.5 BOD and 27 STUN

1d10 (10 BODY, 30 STUN): 10+15 = 25 active points 2d10 + 1d4 for 13.5 BOD and 27 STUN again

1d12 (12 BODY, 36 STUN): 12+18 = 30 active points 2d12 aveages 13 BOD and 26 STUN

1d20 (20 BODY, 60 STUN): 20+30 = 50 active points 1d20 + 1d4 averages 13 BOD again

1d100 (100 BODY, 300 STUN): 100+150 = 250 active points Can`t afford to even consider that on a 60 AP budget. 5d20 will average 52.5 BOD and this only averages 50.5, so it will be a bad buy if we do hit those levels

 

Turns out it`s d3`s for the win - plus I`m still actually rolling d6`s!

 

The more I play with The Main Man's method, the more I like it.

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

"Mattock of the Titans": 5d6 HKA (max: 30 BODY, 90 STUN): 30+45 = 75 active points

 

"Maul of the Titans": 4d10 HKA (max: 40 BODY, 120 STUN): 40+60 = 100 active points

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

"Mattock of the Titans": 5d6 HKA (max: 30 BODY, 90 STUN): 30+45 = 75 active points

 

"Maul of the Titans": 4d10 HKA (max: 40 BODY, 120 STUN): 40+60 = 100 active points

 

Mattock - average 17.5 BOD, 35 STUN

 

Maul - average 22 BOD, 44 STUN

 

Make Maul 6 1/2d6 HKA and it averages 23 BOD, 46 STUN

 

Make both d3's and we get:

 

"Mattock of the Titans": 10d3 HKA (max: 30 BODY, 90 STUN): 30+45 = 75 active points, averages 20 BOD, 40 STUN (14.28% increased average damage, same maximum)

 

"Maul of the Titans": 13d3 + 1 HKA (max: 40 BODY, 120 STUN): 40+60 = 100 active points, averages 27 BOD, 54 STUN, a 22.73% increase in damage output.

 

d3 for the win!

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Die Type Modifiers

 

Normal Stun Attack

1d2 (max 2 BODY, 2 STUN): 2+1 = 3 active points

 

60 AP = 20d2 for an average of 20 BOD and 30 STUN. I'll use it for increased knockback' date=' penetrating attacks and, in Heroic games, attacks that are expected to kill rather than stun. That average of 1 BOD per die beats a 4d6 Killing Attack by a substantial margin (although I also have to punch through normal defenses). Also great for automotons, Entangles and Barriers![/quote']

 

[...]

1d12: 2+6 = 8 active points

[...]

1d100: 2+50 = 52 active points

 

Hard to get 60 AP - I guess 1d100 + 1d12' date=' for 50.5 + 6.5 = 57 average STUN and 2 average BOD[/quote']

 

Compare...

1d100 (max 2 BODY, 100 STUN) "plus" 1d12 (max +2 BODY, +12 STUN): 2+100 "plus" 2+6 = 60 active points

 

to...

20d2 (max 40 BODY, 40 STUN): 40+20= 60 active points.

 

1d100+1d12 totals a max of (2+100+2+12=) 116 overall points of damage, most of which is stun. SLAM! Chances are this volatile normal stun attack will knock out the target. It is virtually useless vs. anything that takes no stun.

 

"Automotons, Entangles and Barriers! Oh, my!" ~(Captain Slam)

 

 

20d2 totals a max of (40+40=) 80 overall points of damage, half of which is body. This is 36 overall points less than 1d100+1d12. Chances are the target will be killed before being knocked out.

 

[edit]:

 

Removed some brainstorming.