Defense tiers?

[Surgo]

Is there a pre-generated list somewhere, that says something like "with many active points / damage classes of damage, you'd need on average much to , but no more"? I'm starting a game and I've found the most difficult thing is figuring out exactly how many defenses everyone should have.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Defense tiers?

 

6e volume 1 has a nice chart of various power levels, which suggests DCs and defenses.

 

1d6 has an average roll of 3.5, so multiplying 3.5 by # of dice provides an average. So, in a Standard Supers game where attacks are expected to be in the 12d6 - 14d6 range, average rolls will be 42 - 49 (between the two DC's). Seems like defenses in the 20 - 25 range would be OK, getting significant STUN past from each attack. If I have 20 defenses, I'd like a 30 CON so an average attack won't STUN me. With 25 defenses, a 25 CON makes Stunning just as likely.

[Christopher]

Re: Defense tiers?

 

Taking a look at the realtion between DC and defenses, I think Defenses up to twice the highest DC are okay for Standart Superhero. Add Con equal one to two times the average DC (so CON + Defense is around 4 times DC) should get you pretty unstunable.

 

Make up to 75% of your defenses Resistant and add one level of Hardened for Flavor, if your aim is a Brick.

 

For highest try to prevent your players from all going there. Try to cap them 2 levels lower (12 DC for 400 pt.) and say that most villains stick to that too (they do).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Defense tiers?

 

Taking a look at the realtion between DC and defenses' date=' I think Defenses up to twice the highest DC are okay for Standart Superhero. [/quote']

 

I've seen 2.5 up to 3x. At those levels, combat takes quite a bit longer, though. The defense to DC ratio suggested has declined over 4e to 5e/6e, probably for that reason. With, say, 12 DC's and 20 - 25 defenses, a typical hit does 17 - 22 STUN, which normally means 2 - 3 hits to KO an opponent. That works pretty well.

 

Add Con equal one to two times the average DC (so CON + Defense is around 4 times DC) should get you pretty unstunable.

 

It's a pretty tight range - if CON + DEF isn't at least equal to average damage, you can expect to be stunned a lot. That's a 3.5x multiple.

 

Make up to 75% of your defenses Resistant and add one level of Hardened for Flavor' date=' if your aim is a Brick.[/quote']

 

Getting deeper into flavour here. If you want killing attacks to be viable and bloody the characters, higher rDEF will be desirable. If you want bloodier killing attacks, reduce rDEF accordingly. Four colour leans to higher rDEF, as suggested above.

 

Assuming you're looking for four colour comics, I'd try those ranges and see how you like the flow of the first few combats. You can always revise later to your own preferences if they differ.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Defense tiers?

 

1.5 to 2.5 x Damage Classes usually works pretty well, in terms of raw PD/ED levels. 1.5x would be for harder-to-hit, high DCV characters, and 2.5x is generally reserved for easier-to-hit bricks and sometimes for the energy defenses of energy projectors as well. If you want a short, possibly more lethal game, then 1 to 2 x DC (12-24 PD/ED for a 12 DC game) will give you that. If you want long, drawn out fights with lots of pushing, haymakers, move-throughs and other "damage-pumping" moves, then 2-3x DC(or even as high as 2.33 to 3.33 x DC(28 to 40 PD/ED for a 12 DC game) works well to simulate that.

If you are allowing other defenses like Damage Negation or Damage Reduction, figure out what the campaign's average "damage taken after defenses applied" is, and calibrate all your defenses so that, after all defenses are applied, they are taking damage somewhere in that range(e.g., if the average is 5-15 points of Stun per hit, then make sure they are taking somewhere in that range after you've applied Negation, PD/ED, and Reduction to the raw damage rolled).

[Christopher]

Re: Defense tiers?

 

It's a pretty tight range - if CON + DEF isn't at least equal to average damage' date=' you can expect to be stunned a lot. That's a 3.5x multiple.[/quote']

At least in the math I use, 4 is bigger than 3.5.

And I also pointed out that the maximum should be used as maximum, not as "the only value that works".

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Defense tiers?

 

We found something to agree on - 4 is bigger than 3.5.

 

However, your leadup suggests defenses capped at 2x DC, and CON equal to one or two times DC. While you suggest 4x in your conclusion, the support leads to 4x being a maximum. Slightly lower defenses (say 1.75x DC) and mid range CON (1.5x being the midpoint between 1 and 2 if my math is correct) totals 3.25, meaning a typical hit stuns the target.

 

3.5 to 4 is, in my view, a pretty narrow range. 3.5 x 14 (and I find 12 a more common DC level) = 49. 4 x 14 = 56. That's a range of 8 possible values, inclusive.

 

In my view, the defenses are the important one to cap. If defenses are a bit too high, the character can often last a lot longer than his peers. A character who can't be stunned (say, defenses of 2x DC and CON of 3x or more) has an advantage, but he still takes damage after defenses, so he can be taken out. If he can't be stunned because his defenses are 3x DC and his CON is twice DC, he'll be very difficult to take down compared to his peers with 2x. A player wanting a very durable character unlikely to be stunned could use the first build without huge issues (maybe even up to 2.5x for defenses if he's an easy target, as Megaplayboy suggests), but a build that significantly exceeds campaign normal defenses to become unstunnable would be much harder to manage.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Defense tiers?

 

Characters should be stunable, or it becomes a pointless mechanic, but not always being stunned. Like Christopher, I usually work on 2xDC for non-resistant defence and 1xDC for resistant defence as a starting point, which can go up or down depending on concept.

 

That means that, on average, 1.5xDC gets through defences, so CON should be at least that. I would go for 2xDC, generally. That would mean that in a game where you expect to be facing 12DC attacks, you should aim for about 24 PD/ED, of which 12 is resistant, and around 24 CON.

 

That means that you only tend to get stunned if the roll is high (over 48 in this case) or the enemies use coordinated attacks against you.

 

This means that, on average, from a normal attack, (42-24) = 18 damage gets through defences. You can then use that to set a useful STUN total: generally you want a character to be able to be hit at least 3 times with an average blow before being KO'd, which means that you want STUN to be over 36, for most characters.

 

An interesting way to build Martial Artist types is to give them defences and CON as high as anyone else but lower STUN. They often have higher DCV and so get hit less anyway, and if they do take a hit might then have to fight defensively for a couple of phases. Conversely brick types might have the same defences as anyone else but higher STUN, perhaps over 54, meaning that it takes 4 or more blows to KO them, especially if they also have high REC. +1 OCV and +1 DCV trades off against 20 extra STUN, which is a pretty good way to differentiate skill and toughness.

 

+1 OCV and DCV means you hit about 10% more often and get hit about 10% less often, and +20 STUN means you can take an additional (slightly above) average blow before keeling over.