Triad

[phoenix240]

Re: Triad

 

So far I thought that each of the three bodies looks the same. So it would not only be obvious that a human is watching (there are a lot more animal in a fantasy world than wizards familiars), it would also be obvios that She (the specific person) is watching - because she is literally standing there and watching.

The speed of Mind Link can be increased using Rapid Sense Modifier, the same way you can do it with a secure radio link (to transmit information faster).

 

I just remembered that there is one Mental Power that allows you to use someones senes - Posession (APG I 74).

Poession is basically a Mind Controll (Standart Effect: 40) and Telepathy (Standart Effect: 30). And I am pretty certain the "take senses" is part of the Telepathy.

 

Her bodies do look alike but there is no outward sign they are the same person. Unless all twins or triplets in the campaign world share a body or they know who and what she is it's not anymore obvious than the Owl, Squirrel, etc, sitting there watching you if you know Wizard's can have familiar. She doesn't "I'm a three bodies being" tattooed on her forehead. There is also no requirement that Clairsentience be "invisible" or imperceptible. It's just not blindingly obvious Say, a big glowing magical eye. If your SFX is such, you'd get a Limitation.

 

And it doesn't matter how fast you get the description, its still a description and no amount of Rapid is going to make the transmission speed instantaneous.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Triad

 

While I really wish Mind Link could do sense sharing, the book pretty explicitly states that it does not work like that. So without house rules, that really not a good option. For what it's worth, all the examples of how to do this sort of thing in the Hero books use some variation on the Clarisentience build.

 

Now, that said, I do have a slight concern about the character as written... what's her role in the game? Is she an NPC?

 

- she's a relative wimp of a telepath compared to most starting level mentalists, even when the three of them are working together. She might be able to get some things done faster than your average mentalist, due to having 9 total actions per turn. Then again, not really sure of what power level the game operates on...

 

- she has no physical combat abilites and in fact appears to be a liability in a fight, so I'm thinking she's not actually on the front lines...

 

- Her skills might be helpful depending on the focus of the game. Hard to judge withouth knowing more. Though the rolls for those skills, even with the Overall skill levels, don't seem that impressive. She's no Batman, even when all three of them are woking together.

 

Also, are they supposed to be a Stepford Cuckoos homage? Just curious...

[phoenix240]

Re: Triad

 

While I really wish Mind Link could do sense sharing, the book pretty explicitly states that it does not work like that. So without house rules, that really not a good option. For what it's worth, all the examples of how to do this sort of thing in the Hero books use some variation on the Clarisentience build.

 

 

Now, that said, I do have a slight concern about the character as written... what's her role in the game? Is she an NPC?

 

 

- she's a relative wimp of a telepath compared to most starting level mentalists, even when the three of them are working together. She might be able to get some things done faster than your average mentalist, due to having 9 total actions per turn. Then again, not really sure of what power level the game operates on...

 

 

- she has no physical combat abilites and in fact appears to be a liability in a fight, so I'm thinking she's not actually on the front lines...

 

 

- Her skills might be helpful depending on the focus of the game. Hard to judge without knowing more. Though the rolls for those skills, even with the Overall skill levels, don't seem that impressive. She's no Batman, even when all three of them are woking together.

 

 

Also, are they supposed to be a Stepford Cuckoos homage? Just curious...

 

 

Triad is a colorful NPC meant for roleplaying and social encounters more than stand up combat. Her mental powers are functional given that most of targets will be Ego 8-13 at most. Working together she's high end (50 active points) for our setting. She isn't meant to be a combat sort and more an interesting person to interact with an role play with. Her skill levels make her good at what she does as far as the game does but she's isn't the great legal mind in the world or anything like that. We work on the scale that 11- means you're a professional able to make a living in your feild (or the equivalent). Anything more than that is varying degrees of expertise. She's not a conscious homage to any particular character. Who are the Steppford Cuckoo?

[Bloodstone]

Re: Triad

 

Who are the Steppford Cuckoo?

 

A rather facinating set of X-men chracters that currently refer to themselves as the Three-in-One

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepford_Cuckoos

[phoenix240]

Re: Triad

 

If Mind Link did have some sort of Sensory Link or Sharing Modifier or Adder I'd gladly use it. It would probably be a more elegant way to handle it but it doesn't. I may end up House Ruling that in the future but I wanted to try to create this character as "book legal" as I could rather that just handwave her since her abilities are likely to come up as more than story fuel.

[phoenix240]

Re: Triad

 

A rather facinating set of X-men chracters that currently refer to themselves as the Three-in-One

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepford_Cuckoos

 

That is interesting and a very similar concept. I think Triad is a little different because she's more one person with three bodies whereas they seem to be 3 women that can link their minds?

[Bloodstone]

Re: Triad

 

That is interesting and a very similar concept. I think Triad is a little different because she's more one person with three bodies whereas they seem to be 3 women that can link their minds?

 

Yep...The Five-In-One were kind of a creepy hive mind, but they started showing independence not too long after they were introduced.

 

They are also more of uber-telepaths, since individually each girl is as strong as a young Emma Frost and they only get stronger when working together.

[phoenix240]

Re: Triad

 

Yep...The Five-In-One were kind of a creepy hive mind, but they started showing independence not too long after they were introduced.

 

They are also more of uber-telepaths, since individually each girl is as strong as a young Emma Frost and they only get stronger when working together.

 

Definitely major players. Our setting is lower powered overall. Triad's bodies are incapable of independent action. They're like psionically linked limbs more than psionically linked twins so it would be like someone's arm suddenly acting on its own. Initially I was going to give her a Features Disad based on how creepy she is to be around but it seemed to easy for her to avoid and mitigate.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Triad

 

The character is an interesting one although not combat effective: you would be lucky to last very long at all, although you have quite a 'punch'. A coordinated 3x5d6 Mental Blast is pretty devastating. You'll average 52 stun against mental defences, which tend to be lower than physical ones in most campaigns.

 

Anyone remember if you can coordinate a Mind Control? I don;t think you can, but I could be wrong.

[Christopher]

Re: Triad

 

Her bodies do look alike but there is no outward sign they are the same person. Unless all twins or triplets in the campaign world share a body or they know who and what she is it's not anymore obvious than the Owl' date=' Squirrel, etc, sitting there watching you if you know Wizard's can have familiar.[/quote']

You seem to minsunderstand something important:

I see a Person on TV.

Then I see a Person in Real life, looking exactly the same - but maybe different clothes and hairstyle.

My first thought will always be: "The Person I saw on TV and the person in front of me are one and the same person." You don't need to know that she has tree bodies to know that "she" is she. Even twins are so rare that two person who look the same, will be asumed to be the same - until you see both at the same time, thus knowing that there are really two and not just some practical prankster.

 

If Mind Link did have some sort of Sensory Link or Sharing Modifier or Adder I'd gladly use it. It would probably be a more elegant way to handle it but it doesn't. I may end up House Ruling that in the future but I wanted to try to create this character as "book legal" as I could rather that just handwave her since her abilities are likely to come up as more than story fuel.

One thing you might consider about the Complications:

"Drops dead if Mind Link Severed". Sure it is inherent, but it can still stopped with Flash or Darkness vs. Mental Group. What would happen to her mind in such a situation?

 

Definitely major players. Our setting is lower powered overall. Triad's bodies are incapable of independent action. They're like psionically linked limbs more than psionically linked twins so it would be like someone's arm suddenly acting on its own. Initially I was going to give her a Features Disad based on how creepy she is to be around but it seemed to easy for her to avoid and mitigate.

Harem from Grrl Power Webcomic seems to be similar.

 

Anyone remember if you can coordinate a Mind Control? I don;t think you can' date=' but I could be wrong.[/quote']

Coordination: Clearly no. You can only coordiante damaging powers. Also Consider Enchantment from APG I.

But two telpaths can give "complimentary" commands or "conflciting" commands - to aid or hinder each other. It's in one of the APG's, but no idea wich one.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Triad

 

...........

Coordination: Clearly no. You can only coordiante damaging powers. Also Consider Enchantment from APG I.

But two telpaths can give "complimentary" commands or "conflciting" commands - to aid or hinder each other. It's in one of the APG's, but no idea wich one.

 

Thank you. Still, 3x 10d6 Mind Control CAN be very effective for 2 reasons:

 

1. you all give the same command: the target needs to make 3 breakout rolls to break free of the mind control

2. you can get one person to MC the target to believe that their team mate is acting strangely (relatively easy ask) then the second MC's to make him believe that the team mate has been replaced by an evil clone/shapeshifter (again quite easy as he already believes the team mate is acting strangely) then the third one gets the target to attack the evil doppelganger (and attacking an enemy is easy enough). What you have there is maybe 3xEGO+10 rather than 1xEGO+30.

[phoenix240]

Re: Triad

 

You seem to minsunderstand something important:

I see a Person on TV.

Then I see a Person in Real life, looking exactly the same - but maybe different clothes and hairstyle.

My first thought will always be: "The Person I saw on TV and the person in front of me are one and the same person." You don't need to know that she has tree bodies to know that "she" is she. Even twins are so rare that two person who look the same, will be assumed to be the same - until you see both at the same time, thus knowing that there are really two and not just some practical prankster.

 

 

I don't know about you but when I see someone on TV that looks the same as someone standing in front I generally assume:

 

 

1. They bare a resemblance to each other. It happens. Triad's bodies not necessarily look like identical duplicates, alike in every detail. They might be siblings, even twins ort just two people that look alike.

 

 

2. The TV image is a recording.

 

 

I generally don't assume they are a mutant/clone with multiple bodies using a Power to spy on me. IMO, most people would. And even then that takes some interesting circumstances for this to even matter. It seems like you're really reaching to try to prove a obscure point. Honestly, in all the uses of Clairsentience I've seen I haven't seen some insistence that it be absolutely inconspicuous even though odd leaps of logic. Its been used to represent everything from bugs to scrying spells to magical detachable eyes balls that float around. Where are you getting the must totally inconspicuous thing anyway? I don't see in the 5th Edition Revised.

 

 

And every build that involved seeing through someone’s senses has been built with it. It's an official modifier for the Power. A rule of Thumb in 5th (not official that I know of) was that if there were two ways to do something generally the more expensive method is the one to use. Mind Link with a House rule "Sense Sharing" modifier might be cheaper and more elegant but it would be inventing a cheaper house rule for something that has a canon method: Limited Clairsentence.

 

 

I don't think we're going to change each other's minds about this so I'm going to agree to disgree and let it go.

 

 

One thing you might consider about the Complications:

"Drops dead if Mind Link Severed". Sure it is inherent, but it can still stopped with Flash or Darkness vs. Mental Group. What would happen to her mind in such a situation?

 

 

If her link to her bodies was somehow blocked that body would be comatose and insensate until it was restored. Its autonomic functions would continue. For Triad it would be unpleasant, like having one ofy our limbs suddenly go dead and numb but not debilitating.

 

 

A body dying would be more traumatic, like losing a limb for a normal person. It might a worthu catalyst for a "Radiation Accident" that changes her abilities or grants her some new ones like maybe a ghost like body of pure psi power, like a phantom limb with benefits or the ability to project her 'extra" consciousness into another and posses them.

[phoenix240]

Re: Triad

 

The character is an interesting one although not combat effective: you would be lucky to last very long at all, although you have quite a 'punch'. A coordinated 3x5d6 Mental Blast is pretty devastating. You'll average 52 stun against mental defenses, which tend to be lower than physical ones in most campaigns.

 

 

Anyone remember if you can coordinate a Mind Control? I don;t think you can, but I could be wrong.

 

 

Well, her tactics in combat either staying out of the costumed people's way or calling the police. She's a civilian. However being a mentalist means her abilities are generally invisible and largely untraceable except to other mentalists. so she'd do what she could to help out, coordinating Ego attacks and using Mind Control and Telepathy when the opportunity presents itself.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Triad

 

Well' date=' her tactics in combat either staying out of the costumed people's way or calling the police. She's a civilian. However being a mentalist means her abilities are generally invisible and largely untraceable except to other mentalists. so she'd do what she could to help out, coordinating Ego attacks and using Mind Control and Telepathy when the opportunity presents itself.[/quote']

 

She would certainly be a very useful backup to have, and a very interesting girlfriend, especially if a cad were to try and cheat with one of her sisters. Oh, goodness, I think my next scenario is currently writing itself in my hind-brain.

[Christopher]

Re: Triad

 

Thank you. Still, 3x 10d6 Mind Control CAN be very effective for 2 reasons:

 

1. you all give the same command: the target needs to make 3 breakout rolls to break free of the mind control

2. you can get one person to MC the target to believe that their team mate is acting strangely (relatively easy ask) then the second MC's to make him believe that the team mate has been replaced by an evil clone/shapeshifter (again quite easy as he already believes the team mate is acting strangely) then the third one gets the target to attack the evil doppelganger (and attacking an enemy is easy enough). What you have there is maybe 3xEGO+10 rather than 1xEGO+30.

I am not certain that is book legal.

[phoenix240]

Re: Triad

 

Why wouldn't it be? It seems like clever tactics to me. And you're taking three Phases (or three character's actions) to drive home one overall command so it seems quite reasonable.

[Christopher]

Re: Triad

 

Why wouldn't it be? It seems like clever tactics to me. And you're taking three Phases (or three character's actions) to drive home one overall command so it seems quite reasonable.

I foudn the rules for complementing/conflicting mental powers. They are actually in 6E1 152 (right in the Mental powers Section), not the APG's. It's a weaker form of the Enchantment from APG I, but also requires no Teamwork. 5E might have something similar, but I only have the Character Creation Handbook.

 

Let's asume it is legal, there might still be problems:

One is that she has no telepathic adder. So she needs to describe each effect, wich takes time and might also give the allies a clue what they are up to.

Another problem is, that the target has three effects to break out of. When a lower power breaks, the others go up on the EGO+X chart*. So when the weakest one breaks, the entire cardhouse breaks down.

 

*when you don't believe he acted strangely, him being a doppelganger is not likely either. So why would you attack him?

[phoenix240]

Re: Triad

 

I foudn the rules for complementing/conflicting mental powers. They are actually in 6E1 152 (right in the Mental powers Section), not the APG's. It's a weaker form of the Enchantment from APG I, but also requires no Teamwork. 5E might have something similar, but I only have the Character Creation Handbook.

 

Let's asume it is legal, there might still be problems:

One is that she has no telepathic adder. So she needs to describe each effect, wich takes time and might also give the allies a clue what they are up to.

Another problem is, that the target has three effects to break out of. When a lower power breaks, the others go up on the EGO+X chart*. So when the weakest one breaks, the entire cardhouse breaks down.

 

*when you don't believe he acted strangely, him being a doppelganger is not likely either. So why would you attack him?

 

Well, assuming RAW: Speaking take no time. And sure, others can try to argue them out of it but that doesn't render the Power unusable. How long does it take to say "Hey, Captain Doofus is acting odd." You don't have make a speech. Otherwise non Telepathic Mind Control would be useless.

 

The target has three effects to break out of but they're much easier to establish and reestablish if necessary. The goal isn't to completely eliminate the target in one hit but to distract them, get them to waste Phases and perhaps do some damage to another of their team. No, its not a "One hit takedown" but its not meant to be and few things are. As for how much the difficulty changes, that's strictly gm's call based the characters and role play. If you have one of those GMs that makes any Mental Power use Ego+ Lots then yeah, just stick Ego blasts.

 

I like to reward clever uses of Powers and tactical thinking over brute force, personally.

[phoenix240]

Re: Triad

 

Oh yeah, House Rule Alert: Mind Control gets "Telepathic" automatically. If you have to speak to your target to affect them its a -1/4 Limitation, -1/2 if they have to understand you.

[Orion]

Re: Triad

 

Just wondering, are there is rules on handling robots and computers, such as for bases, in this way? Seems this character is quite similar to a master computer sensing and acting through multiple security cameras and worker droids. I use these for my Mechanon scenarios, but as NPCS I can just handwave it all. I love the idea of this as character though, and am trying to figure out how to properly handle it.

[Christopher]

Re: Triad

 

Oh yeah' date=' House Rule Alert: Mind Control gets "Telepathic" automatically. If you have to speak to your target to affect them its a -1/4 Limitation, -1/2 if they have to understand you.[/quote']

Are you saying that my interpreation is wrong, our you/your GM has houserule differently?

 

Becaue I have clear sentences in both 5E and 6E that say Mind Controll is langauge dependent by default: "The character must have some way to communicate the order to his target, whether by voice or other means; otherwise, he cannot establish Mind Control." with Telepathic being an +1/4 Advantage.

 

The target has three effects to break out of but they're much easier to establish and reestablish if necessary

You won't get that time. The second one Mind Controll breaks, the otehrs go up in Result required and he get's an immediate re-check/breakout roll for them.

 

Edit:

Now I asked Steve Long if that way is correct:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/89255-Mind-Controll-Many-small-instead-of-one-big-effect?p=2308997#post2308997

[phoenix240]

Re: Triad

 

Are you saying that my interpreation is wrong, our you/your GM has houserule differently?

 

 

 

No, that's why I said "assuming canon" when I responded to you.

[Christopher]

Re: Triad

 

No' date=' that's why I said "assuming canon" when I responded to you.[/quote']

No or Yes to an "or" question never helps to clear confusion.

 

Let's try a single answer question:

What did you wanted you wanted to say when you wrote your "House Rule Alert" post?

[phoenix240]

Re: Triad

 

Thank you. Still, 3x 10d6 Mind Control CAN be very effective for 2 reasons:

 

1. you all give the same command: the target needs to make 3 breakout rolls to break free of the mind control

2. you can get one person to MC the target to believe that their team mate is acting strangely (relatively easy ask) then the second MC's to make him believe that the team mate has been replaced by an evil clone/shapeshifter (again quite easy as he already believes the team mate is acting strangely) then the third one gets the target to attack the evil doppelganger (and attacking an enemy is easy enough). What you have there is maybe 3xEGO+10 rather than 1xEGO+30.

 

At the risk of getting off topic, I was thinking about this. It's not an option for Triad but Mental Illusions might make a better first step. Making the team mate seem "off" wouldn't be a major alteration and would lend credibility to the Mind Control. Telepathy to find out if there were supporting psych lims or memories to exploit might be useful too.

[Christopher]

Re: Triad

 

At the risk of getting off topic' date=' I was thinking about this. It's not an option for Triad but Mental Illusions might make a better first step. Making the team mate seem "off" wouldn't be a major alteration and would lend credibility to the Mind Control. Telepathy to find out if there were supporting psych lims or memories to exploit might be useful too.[/quote']

I was not certain if Mental Image wasn't need either. But there is a good case for an "Target will believe any statement that doesn’t contradict reality under direct observation" Mind Control effect.

 

In either case I asked steve long:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/89255-Mind-Controll-Many-small-instead-of-one-big-effect?p=2308999

He could see it on a case by case basis, but generally they should use the rules for complementary Mental Powers (you have time until the targets phase to pile MC effects on the victim that way).

 

Mental Image seems to be about changing the current perception, while Mind Controll could affect the interpretation of his previous behvaior.