Triad

[phoenix240]

Re: Triad

 

It looks to me like he was saying that its up to the GM but here is how I would do it. He has an opinion like anyone else but there's nothing that expressly forbids it and even if there where GMs are free to ignore it. In this case I disagree with his opinion because it isn't using the same Mental Power to achieve the same thing. Yes, there is an collective goal but its three different commands that happen to reinforce each other not all of them combing to try and push for a single command: Attack your team mate. The other three will have their own effect. With some characters it may not even be nessecary to try and order them to attack their former ally.

[Christopher]

Re: Triad

 

Yes' date=' there is an collective goal but its three different commands that happen to reinforce each other not all of them combing to try and push for a single command: Attack your team mate. The other three will have their own effect. With some characters it may not even be nessecary to try and order them to attack their former ally.[/quote']

I think total goal is, what should be determining. The three step scenario is for me just a Special Effect/in game Descirption of how Complementing Mental powers work.

 

When each has a 10d6 Mind Controll and they use the Complimentary Mental Powers Rule, that would become the equivalent of a 14d6 Mind Controll.

 

It's also way easier to resolve (one power to track/break out, not three) and works for other powers (like Telepathy, Mind Scan) as well.

[phoenix240]

Re: Triad

 

I think total goal is, what should be determining. The three step scenario is for me just a Special Effect/in game Description of how Complementing Mental powers work.

 

When each has a 10d6 Mind Control and they use the Complimentary Mental Powers Rule, that would become the equivalent of a 14d6 Mind Control.

 

It's also way easier to resolve (one power to track/break out, not three) and works for other powers (like Telepathy, Mind Scan) as well.

 

I see the steps as actions in and of themselves since they can (and will) have their own effect. If its done as one big attack and it fails or is thrown, everything goes back to normal. The three MC orders each have their own impact and effects. Its the psionic equivalent of a con game with the set up and closer.

 

To put it another way, if three mentalists issued those orders in that sequence without an agreed on goal they would be three separate actions (or if, over the course of a long battle, one mentalist issued them to the same target at different times) that would affect each other. I don't think having a plan changes the nature of actions in question. To me complimentary mental powers is combing Powers to do the same thing. In this case, they're not. Its subtle, IMO, than them all figuratively shouting "Attack your team mate!" and takes longer but will have different and perhaps more overall affect. As far as ease of play goes, you trade the Breakout rolls for three ego rolls per use so that's not a big deal either way, IMO.

 

The slow and subtle approach works better for Triad though. She's not a brute force type.

 

But it comes down to how you conceive Mental Powers. Both approaches work within the rules so there's not really a "right" answer.

 

Another thought occurred, once the target is convinced their teammate is a doppelganger a better closer command might be "Apprehend or capture the double!" if your target is a heroic sort. Depends on how much the GM feels the phrasing matters to Mind Control (and its sfx).

[Christopher]

Re: Triad

 

Its subtle' date=' IMO, than them all figuratively shouting "Attack your team mate!" and takes longer but will have different and perhaps more overall affect.[/quote']

Who says the three mentalist using complimentary mental powers all say "Attack your team mate!"?

One could make a mental illusion that he "sees something off" on his ally. The other two mind controll him into attacking, using a apraoch described exactly as what we are discussing.

 

I think you are hanging way to much on the in game description and try to make house rules to fit them exactly - even if we already have a rule that covers it exactly (but with less built in special effect). A two man con game or playing good cop/bad cop is as simple as one person making a complimentary roll for his colleague. A block vs ranged/5E missile deflection can be as easily "dodging bullets" or "bounce bullets of your chest" as "block it with your lightsaber" or "catch them in the air".

 

And the problem with house rules, is that they tend to cause balacing problems. Those you will have to adress once you include it:

Can a sequence of EGO+10 effect be to hard to escape from?

Could that make mental powers to strong when used by skilled mentalists?

What about a single mentalist? Could he do this and why/why not?

[phoenix240]

Re: Triad

 

I'm talking about the example we've been going back and fourth about for the last few posts. You can't use different Powers or different effects when you use Complimentarty Mental Powers so all the Mentalists involved would have to issue the same order.

 

And what "House Rules" are you talking about?

 

But life's too short for this.

[phoenix240]

Re: Triad

 

Would: "Legally three people" cause enough issues to be Disadvantage or do you think it would just be flavor?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Triad

 

Would: "Legally three people" cause enough issues to be Disadvantage or do you think it would just be flavor?

 

I'm not sure how it would cause any problems at all. Three bodies being considered "legally one person" would seem to be the odd ruling that would probably take a long time to sort out, even in a superpowered world.

[Christopher]

Re: Triad

 

And what "House Rules" are you talking about?

The house rule* you crate because the exsiting rule** does not fit's the ingame description 100% on the first glance.

 

*three Mentalist workign to the same overall goal, can each just target for a EGO+10 effect. The thing we have been discussing this entire time.

 

**complimentary Mental Powers Rule from 6E1 152 wich is designed for these Situations.

 

Would: "Legally three people" cause enough issues to be Disadvantage or do you think it would just be flavor?

She has the life cost of three, and has some issues keeping each bodies licenses synced up. And tehre might be mundane problems*. So it mostly depends on how well you envision her to be in keeping each bodies legal side up to date.

 

*In wich bodies pocket did I put that key? Oh, that one.

[phoenix240]

Re: Triad

 

I'm not sure how it would cause any problems at all. Three bodies being considered "legally one person" would seem to be the odd ruling that would probably take a long time to sort out' date=' even in a superpowered world.[/quote']

 

I think you're right. I rolled it around a little and while both options could cause issues they're more just story fodder than long term Disadvantages.

[phoenix240]

Re: Triad

 

The house rule* you crate because the exsiting rule** does not fit's the ingame description 100% on the first glance.

 

*three Mentalist working to the same overall goal, can each just target for a EGO+10 effect. The thing we have been discussing this entire time.

 

That's not a House rule. That is a ruling. The GM sets the difficulty of mental attacks according the situation, the characters involved and their own senses of balance. Allowing characters to work together to make affects easier or harder is rewording tactics and role playing. For example, if someone used Mental Illusions to make a character think he was standing in front of a pool instead of a 30 story ledge , a mind control to "Jump" would be much easier, at least less than Ego 30. I see this as a similar situation

 

Complimentary Mental Power would be used if the mentalists wanted to all use Mind Control to force their target to jump off the roof or Illusion to convince him he was walking down a hall while in reality he'd stepped off the ledge.

 

And, for the record, I didn't say it would drop the effects to Ego +10. They might or they might all be different.

 

The Complimentary Powers rule is pretty clearly meant to support multiple characters piling on to reinforce the same order, combining to issue one command, create one illusion, perform one probe or what ever. That, IMO, doesn't match what the characters in this case are doing and would result in an inaccurate simulation of those effects. It's all or nothing (a problem with mental powers in general) and the actions in question are not. The characters are coordinating different actions to assist each other. Yes, they have a general shared goal: Cause confusion and discord, possibly cause some damage but it's not a single directive. If the target fails to resist one or more of the orders they will not be totally unaffected. They are not necessarily going to be attacking all at once, the target's mental defense is not going to apply once against the entire affect and they're more than one command to resist.

 

Using Complimentary Powers, if its succeeds the target attacks their team mate. They don't think he's a double or has been acting strangely. Which may seem minor but could have an important impact on the rest of the scene or how the other characters react. An important distinction, IMO

 

To my mind, that's no different than say, one character using a throw to reduce the targets DCV so another can Grab them and a final one unleashing a haymaker'ed blast at the helpless target. It's tactics. It's not making up a "House Rule". Even Long says individual GMs might run it differently. I respect that you feel differently but you don't have final say on what is or is not the "right" way to do something, Steve Long didn't even claim that. But I'll try to make this my final post on the matter. I hope you can let it go as well.

[Christopher]

Re: Triad

 

By chance I got new Informations:

APG I 126: +5 "Sensory Impressions" Adder for Telepathy. Requires "Reading the Mind" Level of Effect.

6E1 260, right column: -1/2 variant of Feedback for Mind Link/Mental powers to affect non-damaging negative Effects (like Mind Controll). No information if that applies to non-body/stun Drains or Flashes as well.