VPPs used liberally to prevent character stagnation?

[Kealios]

Way back when I used to play Champions, I remember being in situations where my one or two attacks just werent cutting it, or I wanted to do something else at the moment but couldnt. This led to two distinct reactions from me, as a player:

 

1. I made my powers as stacked with Limitations as I could, to get the most "bang for my buck" (I also used Multipowers a TON)

2. Well, I dreamed up and made more characters, of course!!!!

 

Now I am preparing a Fantasy Hero game for friends who really only ever have played D&D (3.5 exclusively, for 2 of them). They have characters with lots of options (druids who can, on any given day, memorize any spell in the book as needed, for example), and I want the best for them as they port over into my world.

 

One way I am thinking of doing this is by allowing fairly free use of Variable Power Pools. Sure, I'll limit how often the slots can be changed, and require players to Pre-Build their powers so we dont all have to pick our noses while they make in-game decisions, but what is your opinion on this?

 

I played Alpha Omega a year or so ago, and its magic system is 100% a VPP - but its even more situational than HERO is, so we often DID sit around picking our noses while the spell details were hammered out. I liked the flexibility - the implementation wasnt the best.

 

I even want to have this for Martial Arts characters - allow a staggering amount of Martial Arts moves and powers, without draining the life out of the characters who try to be super diverse. Thats why Im interested in your thoughts on this.

 

Do you allow VPPs? Do you find them helpful, giving players options, or hindering by making it too easy for the players or hard for the GM?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPPs used liberally to prevent character stagnation?

 

I think VPP's as you describe can be a great tool. Pre-builds remove a lot of issues (especially if you set them in increments - ie each 1d6/DC/+2/+2 defense uses up X from the pool).

 

You can go a step further than pre-builds and structure these to require time to change the slots, if desired. That reduces flexibility on the fly, but also eliminates time spent modifying the VPP in combat.

[Christopher]

Re: VPPs used liberally to prevent character stagnation?

 

If you are the GM, take a look at the Power Skill. If it is something you only use once or twice per campaign, the player should not have to write it up. Just let him make a power roll to modify his spell on the fly.

 

APG I 39 has some pretty good guidelines of "how much, how easy" you can get.

 

VPP are a way, however an rather expensive.

One alternative would be to use Resource Points (APG I 191). It should not be hard to create a "Magic Pool". The same way a "Equipment Pool" limits that a Warrior can't run around with the Über-sword and Über-armor all the time without paying character points for that privilege/power, it could work to balance magic.

In effect Spells become something similar to equipment - you might have infinite amounts of your base but can only carry so much during any given fight.

[Kealios]

Re: VPPs used liberally to prevent character stagnation?

 

Ive wanted the Grimoire as one of my required books, but tracking it down in dead tree form is proving challenging. I shall continue my quest, however - thanks for the tip!

[Orion]

Re: VPPs used liberally to prevent character stagnation?

 

As I see VPPs, the normal use is to either lower the point cost of many similar powers, or to make a cleaner character sheet. They are great for some things, like mages that can cast very large numbers of spells and can modify the advantages and limitations on the fly. For most things though, I don't see a VPP as necessary. I would allow VPPs in any genre, but have never had a player ask for them.

 

Every campaign I've been in with mages, the total number of spells was less than 20, and all were built out ahead of time. Depending on the GM, either each only cost 1-5 points, or spellcasting was a generic power that cost a set number of points for everyone, regardless of power level and number of spells. In the latter case, gaining new spells, or modifying existing ones, came about through the storyline, not from XP (gaining levels with a weapon or skill was handled much the same way).

 

I think it comes down mainly to how many powers and skills go into the VPP. If each mage just has 10 spells, or each martial artist has 6 moves, I wouldn't bother. If every martial artist has 10 moves in each of 4 different fighting styles, then I'd just say they automatically get all martial arts moves, charge them a set point cost, and tell them the difference is in how they describe the move, not in the effect.

[lifo]

Re: VPPs used liberally to prevent character stagnation?

 

I got the whole arcane magic system of my campaign made around VPPs (divine magic, instead, works on multipowers).

Every magic user has a Magic VPP, but they can only cast spells they know - pre-made spells that may have settings to be cast at greater power. Spells are divided in 12 schools and each school has its own Power skill to cast them. Magic users also need to refresh their memory on the spells they know on their magic book at least once week or risk losing knowledge of one or more spells (this is built as a Dependance).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: VPPs used liberally to prevent character stagnation?

 

You might want to take a look at the following by Killershrike:

Conversion Resource

FROM: D&D 3e

TO: HERO System 5th Edition

 

High Fantasy HERO>Content>Magic>Magic Systems>Vancian (Fire & Forget)

[gojira]

Re: VPPs used liberally to prevent character stagnation?

 

I think you need to be careful how you do this. VPPs penalize a player by charging them a control cost. This makes sense in a supers game where the players have points to burn, but can seriously hamper lower point characters. I'm sorta designing a lower level point campaign right now, and while I started with VPPs for certain things I think they're actually to unbalanced, in the players disfavor.

 

Right now I'm considering:

 

1. Use pools. These are just straight character points that can be used for anything in the pool. Equipment, magic, etc. Essentially this is a VPP with the control cost waived by the GM.

 

2. Use resource pools. Like above, but get a hefty divisor. Points in a resource pool only cost one-fifth as much by default, but you can change the divisor to anything that makes sense.

 

3. Use learned skills. OK, your players are from DnD. They're used to earning a bucket of XP before they can level-up and get new abilities. In Hero, each point they earn is going to be immediately useful. Make them assign what abilities they want to learn in advance, and then after a suitable number of adventures, give them those abilities. More stuff to do = more interest in character.

[Markdoc]

Re: VPPs used liberally to prevent character stagnation?

 

I think you need to be careful how you do this. VPPs penalize a player by charging them a control cost. This makes sense in a supers game where the players have points to burn, but can seriously hamper lower point characters. I'm sorta designing a lower level point campaign right now, and while I started with VPPs for certain things I think they're actually to unbalanced, in the players disfavor.

 

Right now I'm considering:

 

1. Use pools. These are just straight character points that can be used for anything in the pool. Equipment, magic, etc. Essentially this is a VPP with the control cost waived by the GM.

 

2. Use resource pools. Like above, but get a hefty divisor. Points in a resource pool only cost one-fifth as much by default, but you can change the divisor to anything that makes sense.

 

3. Use learned skills. OK, your players are from DnD. They're used to earning a bucket of XP before they can level-up and get new abilities. In Hero, each point they earn is going to be immediately useful. Make them assign what abilities they want to learn in advance, and then after a suitable number of adventures, give them those abilities. More stuff to do = more interest in character.

 

But that cost is offset by flexibility. If you are not careful as a GM, lots and lots of flexibility. A GM unaware of how this can play out will reap a harvest of bitter, bitter tears.

 

In a fantasy setting, even a few points sunk into some powers become hugely powerful - flash, flight, forcefield, detects, etc, because standard fantasy opponents offer lack any counter-methods and standard settings are often walk-overs for characters with powers (5" Flight, usable by others, for example, won't send you zipping across continents, but it renders castle and town walls irrelevant and turns many monsters that lack ranged attacks into so much chopped meat). We've been playing FH for near on 3 decades now, and for a long time, VPPs were banned by many of my fellow GMs because of their vast potential to be gamebreakers. Certainly many of my own most effective FH characters had VPPs.

 

I allow VPPs, but I also ride very tight herd on them to stop them becoming way, way, too effective: mostly by requiring very tight definitions on what can go in them. A VPP for "Magic of the Temple of the Horned Man" for example is OK, because that defines pretty tightly what spells the character has access to. A VPP for "Magic" would not be. In the last game (which ran regularly for 5 years) we had characters who started with VPPs and other characters who acquired them as the game went on and they got XPs. That worked well, and certainly the players who had them did not express dissatisfaction.

 

cheers, Mark

[Christopher]

Re: VPPs used liberally to prevent character stagnation?

 

VPP's tend to be better balanced in combat. The time and skillroll it takes to change them easily counters the flexibility.

However - and that is the big problem - the noncombat uses are dangerous. You must be carefully to always know what a VPP can't do.

[Markdoc]

Re: VPPs used liberally to prevent character stagnation?

 

VPP's tend to be better balanced in combat. The time and skillroll it takes to change them easily counters the flexibility.

However - and that is the big problem - the noncombat uses are dangerous. You must be carefully to always know what a VPP can't do.

 

Agreed - combat (especially for direct attacks) is not the problem. It's everything else. Cleverly used VPPS can be a problem in combat though. A 20 point VPP can't generate a lethal RKA, but it can generate an entangle which will take almost any human target out of the fight. Since FH (and most heroic games) tends to generate characters who can be one-shotted by a good hit, and use hit locations, a relatively small flash followed by a sword to the head, can wreak havoc. Even a relatively small running drain can be lethal. Etc.

 

So I'd add that even in combat a VPP can be a huge force multiplier, if used craftily. It's not raw combat power, as such, that's the problem, it's the ability to generate effects that many (if not most) opponents can't easily prepare for, or counter.

 

cheers, Mark

[BhelliomRahl]

Re: VPPs used liberally to prevent character stagnation?

 

I find VPPS very useful for magic, although I do modify them. In the past I have created a Virtual Variable Power Pool System.

 

Example:

Magic Users firstly bought Mage Gift. 10pts this allowed them to use magic. Also Detect Magic (Sense, Range) 10pts to see magic and then a Endurance Pool to fuel the magic.

 

I then divided Magic into different Schools; Elemental, Conjuration, Sorcery, etc. The player would spend 10pts to get a school talent. This would give them a 25pt pool and 50pt Control of the VPP. Each 2pt additionally put into the talent would increase the VVPP by +5 pool and +10 control. This VVPP is not used at all as a VPP is used in the book, its just there as guide for what spells a magic user is capable of using, also it makes a good guide for judging repesective power levels between magic users.

 

Control of magic was handled by a Magic Skill (Power Skill at a -1 per 10AP in Spell) to cast spells, it was the same skill for all schools of magic. The daily spell limit was based upon a mana endurance pool which had slow recovery; 6 hours rest/mediation.

 

Players did not pay for spells but learned them, they started with half intelligence in spells. They could cast any spell which they knew, had the school for and it fell withing the VVPP limits. I mainly used the spell grimoire (5th Edition) but wrote several of my own. Occasionally if a player roleplayed a spell and discribed it well I would let them role a spontantious spell witn a negative modifier of -4 plus additional penalties based on the percieved AP of the effect.

 

If martial characters purchase martial arts the points usual balance out. Later on I developed a Rune system that martial character could use on equipment then utilise a crystal which stored magical energy to temporary empower them. Although at that point the mage spent his spare time as a battery charger, got him out of doing the washing though. LOL

 

If you look in Fantasy Hero (6th) this has been done for the Gift magic example. Fantasy Hero explains and demostrates many different methods for creating magic. I would recommend having a good look at it before you decide what type of Magic System to create/use.

[Kealios]

Re: VPPs used liberally to prevent character stagnation?

 

I just acquired Fantasy 6th ed, 6th ed Martial Arts, and 6E2. 6E1 is in the mail, as is Grimoire. Your input, all of you, has been fantastic. Thank you. I will read the Fantasy book and get more ideas.