Damage reduction

[quozaxx]

Quick question. Does Damage Reduction affect Drains?

 

I don't have my book in front of me and I need a quick answer.

[CptPatriot]

Re: Damage reduction

 

On 6e1 184, It says that the Resistant Damage Reduction affects Drain STUN or Drain BODY (but not other types of Drains).

 

I assume the way the Damage Reduction is purchased is the final determining factor. If you buy Resistant Energy Damage Reduction, an energy based Drain attack would be affected by it.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Damage reduction

 

Yah, what patriot said. It effects STUN and BODY Drains. I bet this is about Gargantua. If I had known he had DR I would have gone for a STR Drain instead!

 

I have most of the books but I don't like to ruin the fun by peaking .

[quozaxx]

Re: Damage reduction

 

How did you know it involved Gargantua?

 

Yup, you're right. Which means the heroes are not going to like his response.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Damage reduction

 

How did you know it involved Gargantua?

 

Yup, you're right. Which means the heroes are not going to like his response.

I happened to see the question here right after reviewing my attack there. To make things worse, I'm not sure I am going to be able to tell my damage is being reduced but I will leave those details to you.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage reduction

 

I'd say it's just as obvious Drain damage is reduced as that, say, punch or flame damage is reduced. Whether that means both are blatantly obvious ("Your attacks seem to be having little effect.") or neither is obvious other than by the fact Gargantua just keeps coming depends on the style of the game. Do the villains "know" when a PC's damage reduction is reducing their damage?

[Doc Samson]

Re: Damage reduction

 

I'd say it's just as obvious Drain damage is reduced as that' date=' say, punch or flame damage is reduced. Whether that means both are blatantly obvious ("Your attacks seem to be having little effect.") or neither is obvious other than by the fact Gargantua just keeps coming depends on the style of the game. Do the villains "know" when a PC's damage reduction is reducing their damage?[/quote']

This has come up in our games a few times, though usually phrased as something like "My attack didn't hit for full damage? Well is it Power Defense or something else like Reduction?". As the GM, I will tell a player when an obvious power is in use but I won't always tell him what power. For example, If a villain disappears I will tell the player that he sees the villain disappear but I won't tell him whether he turned invisible or teleported unless he has some way to tell the difference between the two (like an applicable sense power or skill).

[Christopher]

Re: Damage reduction

 

This has come up in our games a few times' date=' though usually phrased as something like "My attack didn't hit for full damage? Well is it Power Defense or something else like Reduction?". As the GM, I will tell a player when an obvious power is in use but I won't always tell him what power. For example, If a villain disappears I will tell the player that he sees the villain disappear but I won't tell him whether he turned invisible or teleported unless he has some way to tell the difference between the two (like an applicable sense power or skill).[/quote']

At least for teleport I think you should tell them. For all movement it "is obvious that the character moved". No movement is inherently stealthy. If you want a teleport that can be mistaken for invsibility, it should have the IPE for it.

 

I would also generally tell players that a defense affected the attack and what type of defense (though no always the magnitude). In comicbooks the characters always seem to know what defense is stopping them (and hence they find a way around it, using a different attack).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage reduction

 

At least for teleport I think you should tell them. For all movement it "is obvious that the character moved". No movement is inherently stealthy. If you want a teleport that can be mistaken for invsibility' date=' it should have the IPE for it.[/quote']

 

I think, in the case of teleportation, it is obvious the character has disappeared. I don't think it's automatically obvious he reappeared somewhere else, unless you can perceive him appearing there. If I use your interpretation, I get the result that, if I don't tell the players he teleported, then they know he turned invisible. That's not automatic under RAW, so one of the two has to give. Common and dramatic sense suggests it is the Teleportation which gives.

 

I also note that

 

in some cases the GM may require that a character succeed with a PER Roll or INT Roll to perceive that another character has one of these Powers (particularly if a character’s trying to perceive one of these Powers with a non-Sight Sense).

 

in discussing inobvious powers such as movement. Further,

Movement Powers are a slight exception to the general rules. While they’re Inobvious' date=' the fact that a character’s moving from Point A to Point B [b']generally cannot be hidden[/b].

 

That's a far cry from your statement bolded above. Am I missing a rules cite that you're drawing from? You're generally pretty solid on the phrasing of the rules.

 

Teleportation is the only movement that cannot augment damage, or even have attacks made during movement. It's different enough that another minor difference or two aren't the end of the world.

 

I would also generally tell players that a defense affected the attack and what type of defense (though no always the magnitude). In comicbooks the characters always seem to know what defense is stopping them (and hence they find a way around it' date=' using a different attack).[/quote']

 

I have no problem with telling the player his attacks seem to have little impact on the target. Unless they're trying to pretend the attack had a serious impact, in which case some form of acting type roll is mandated, then they're simply not all that affected.

 

Here, the RAW seem to disagree with you.

 

Defense Powers are Inobvious. However, as with Automaton Powers, the Target Effect may be Obvious after a character suffers an attack. For example, if a character gets hit by an anti-tank missile and shows few (if any) signs of harm, it’s Obvious to anyone who saw the attack

that the character has a Defense Power of some sort.

 

To me, that's the classic comic book result - "That blow would have felled an elephant - how can he remain standing?" or "His rubbery body is nigh immune to my mighty blows" Not "oh, he has Damage Reduction, not resistant PD or Damage Negation".

[Doc Samson]

Re: Damage reduction

 

This is an interesting discussion, I hope the OP (and my GM) doesn't mind the tangent as his question has been resolved.

 

I personally feel that telling the player exactly what power is in use can create an unfair advantage. For example, a player is attacked by an illusion. Knowing whether the illusion is an Image or a Mental Illusion could affect the player's decision with information the character may not have, "That was a mental power, we are looking for a mentalist!".

 

In the example at hand, knowing that Gargantua has more defense to some of my Drains than others makes me want to switch my choice of attack even though having a lot of STUN, Power Defense, and Damage Reduction may all appear the same to my character.

[quozaxx]

Re: Damage reduction

 

Actually I'll probably say something like 'Was that supposed to hurt?"

 

And you can draw your conclusions from there.

[Christopher]

Re: Damage reduction

 

I personally feel that telling the player exactly what power is in use can create an unfair advantage. For example' date=' a player is attacked by an illusion. Knowing whether the illusion is an Image or a Mental Illusion could affect the player's decision with information the character may not have, "That was a mental power, we are looking for a mentalist!".[/quote']

That is something they know on the spot once they break it.

Mental Illusions count as "continued effect mental powers", so once you have broken them you know that it was a mental illusion.

 

In the example at hand' date=' knowing that Gargantua has more defense to some of my Drains than others makes me want to switch my choice of attack even though having a lot of STUN, Power Defense, and Damage Reduction may all appear the same to my character.[/quote']

But defenses are never without special effects. For example a "big" mosnter could easily have 50% DR because it is big. "That attack would have felled a human, but because of it's size it hardly felt that (damage reduction)". That way characters can work around it, as they do in the comics.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage reduction

 

But defenses are never without special effects. For example a "big" mosnter could easily have 50% DR because it is big. "That attack would have felled a human' date=' but because of it's size it hardly felt that (damage reduction)". That way characters can work around it, as they do in the comics.[/quote']

 

Or it hardly felt that because its great size provides damage negation (just as a human is unlikely to be felled by a mosquito, this huge being takes little damage from a tiny bullet - a much bigger attack is needed to inflict any damage) or provides higher defenses, or just provides massive STUN - that 25 damage past defenses that would fell a normal man is a lot less impressive against a target with 300 STUN. All can readily be described as "That attack would have felled a human, but because of it's size it hardly felt that."

[Doc Samson]

Re: Damage reduction

 

Interesting responses Christopher. For the sake of discussion, I would like to go into a few specifics if you don't mind. Thank you.

 

I'm not sure I follow your first statement. Why does an attack being a mental power mean the target automatically knows it is one? He knows he was attacked but why would he know exactly what power was used? Where do you draw the line? Should the players also know how many APs are in a power in case they want to try to Dispel or Suppress it?

 

Some examples:

 

A villain has Invisibility and Teleportation both with the special effect of disappearing in a cloud of smoke. Do I have to tell the player that the villain is still standing there but is invisible even if the character can't sense him?

 

If a player has a Normal Attack and an AP Attack, do I have to tell the payer the villain has Hardened Defenses so the character knows that his normal attacks may be more effect point for point?

 

If a villain stops an attack with a shield, do I have to tell a player whether the villain used the barrier power (this is the way questionite shields were built in the past) or whether the villain used the block maneuver? What if the character has an indirect attack but didn't use it?

[Christopher]

Re: Damage reduction

 

Interesting responses Christopher. For the sake of discussion, I would like to go into a few specifics if you don't mind. Thank you.

 

I'm not sure I follow your first statement. Why does an attack being a mental power mean the target automatically knows it is one? He knows he was attacked but why would he know exactly what power was used? Where do you draw the line? Should the players also know how many APs are in a power in case they want to try to Dispel or Suppress it?

General Rules form Mental Powers, 6E1 151:

"However, the target of a mental attack can sense the Source of the attack and knows what Mental Power he’s been attacked with. This identification occurs immediately for Mental Blast, Mind Scan, and Telepathy; for Mind Control or Mental Illusions it usually occurs after the Power no longer affects the character."

 

A villain has Invisibility and Teleportation both with the special effect of disappearing in a cloud of smoke. Do I have to tell the player that the villain is still standing there but is invisible even if the character can't sense him?

I think that every Teleport has a "sound effect". It's what the Sourcematerial tells me at least. The rules also tell that to use any Movement Power Silently, you have to make a Concealment Roll at a big penalty (based on how far you move).

If he uses the Teleport silently, then it could be mistaken for the Invsibility. But a normal "Zworp" Teleport should never be mistaken for "fading from sight".

 

If a player has a Normal Attack and an AP Attack' date=' do I have to tell the payer the villain has Hardened Defenses so the character knows that his normal attacks may be more effect point for point?[/quote']

The same way I would tell him "this robot" (takes no stun) seems to be not stopped by the STUN part of your blast". Call it "the zombie/robot isn't even slowed down" or something.

Or the way I would tell him that this Flash did not drop the targets DCV.

 

If a villain stops an attack with a shield' date=' do I have to tell a player whether the villain used the barrier power (this is the way questionite shields were built in the past) or whether the villain used the block maneuver? What if the character has an indirect attack but didn't use it?[/quote']

Certainly you should tell him the difference! There is a huge difference in how this defense is overcome. Not telling him would be pretty unfair.

Always keep in mind that you, the GM already has those information about the characters.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage reduction

 

General Rules form Mental Powers, 6E1 151:

"However, the target of a mental attack can sense the Source of the attack and knows what Mental Power he’s been attacked with. This identification occurs immediately for Mental Blast, Mind Scan, and Telepathy; for Mind Control or Mental Illusions it usually occurs after the Power no longer affects the character."

 

Agreed

 

I think that every Teleport has a "sound effect". It's what the Sourcematerial tells me at least. The rules also tell that to use any Movement Power Silently, you have to make a Concealment Roll at a big penalty (based on how far you move).

 

If he uses the Teleport silently, then it could be mistaken for the Invsibility. But a normal "Zworp" Teleport should never be mistaken for "fading from sight".

 

My copy of the rulebook says that every inobvious power is detectable by two senses, one of which is usually sight. And why can't the character also go "Zworp" when he activates his invisibility field?

 

The same way I would tell him "this robot" (takes no stun) seems to be not stopped by the STUN part of your blast". Call it "the zombie/robot isn't even slowed down" or something.

Or the way I would tell him that this Flash did not drop the targets DCV.

 

To the first, please tell me, with no game mechanics, how the robot taking no STUN looks different from the robot having sufficient PD that your attack inflicted no STUN. And how it is obvious that the AP attack was blocked by 15 points of Hardened PD, rather than 30 points of normal PD.

 

To the second, it should be possible to see that the target does not seem impaired (assuming he is still moving). There is no way to tell that this is because he's not blind, or because he's using radar sense. How would you explain Daredevil not being impaired by the Sight Flash? How do you tell that your Smell/Taste Flash had no effect?

 

That the target is unimpeded is often pretty obvious. Why the target is unimpeded is generally not nearly as obvious.

 

Certainly you should tell him the difference! There is a huge difference in how this defense is overcome. Not telling him would be pretty unfair.

 

Always keep in mind that you, the GM already has those information about the characters.

 

The GM certainly has the info. The NPC's do not share all the GM's information. If they did, telling the GM I stealthily try to sneak up on an enemy, or that I am plying possum to take a recovery, would be a problem, wouldn't it?

 

The character perceives his attack being intercepted by the shield. He has no way of perceiving the mechanical build to tell whether that was a Block, extra PD and ED on an activation roll, a barrier or some other possibility. He simply has to try approaches he thinks may work.

 

Automatically having the villain with an NND always attack the PC's who lack the inobvious defense and never those who have it, while his teammate is unerringly able to target characters with hardened defenses with his Blast and those lacking them with an AP Blast, is the truly unfair approach.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Damage reduction

 

Thanks for your replies guys. Definitely food for thought.