Alternate STUN Damage -- Groggy & (alternate) Knocked Out Conditions

[Epiphanis]

It seems to me that one of the most genre-inappropriate aspects of the default Hero System rules are the STUN damage Knockout rules. Because STUN damage continues to be taken into the negative numbers, are the target continues to take recoveries while Knocked Out, the combat system pretty much demands that once you knock somebody out you continue to beat on their unconscious body to prevent them from returning to consciousness. This process is often referred to as "curbstomping." Its singularly un-superheroic-- generally, it literally entails kicking someone while he is down.

 

This is a proposed house rule alternative:

 

1. STUN Damage cannot go into the negative numbers. The lowest possible STUN is zero.

 

2. While his STUN is zero, the target receives the condition "Groggy." A Groggy character remains conscious and typically does not fall down if standing. He can take no actions (including zero-phase actions) except to attempt to take a recovery or shut off active powers. His END immediately drops to zero (Endurance Reserves are unaffected), and he cannot expend his own END in any way (though active Persistent powers that do not cost END may remain on). OCV and OMCV drop to zero, DCV, DMCV, and Hit Location are at 1/2. The STUN damage of any attack made on a target that is Groggy is doubled, but only for purposes of determining Stunning; it cannot take the target into negative STUN. If for any reason (e.g., usually a recovery) the target's STUN rises above zero the Groggy condition immediately ends, but END lost due to the condition is not returned (it can be recovered normally, however).

 

3. If a character is ever simultaneously subject to both the Groogy and Stunned conditions, both such conditions are automatically removed and replaced with the Knocked Out condition. A Knocked Out character loses consciousness and will typically fall prone if not otherwise supported. All CVs drop to zero, and Hit Location is at 1/2. The character cannot expend END in any way and cannot take any action whatsoever, including taking recoveries. The character can take no further STUN damage while Knocked Out. The character who is Knocked Out does not get any Post-12 recoveries, but instead may make a CON roll at that time. If successful, the Knocked Out condition ends and is replaced with the Groggy condition alone (with the zero STUN and END that condition entails); the character is no longer Stunned and may take a recovery on his next action. If for any reason the character's STUN rises above zero the Knocked Out condition immediately ends. In all other ways Knocked Out is treated as described in default rules. For narrative purposes, a GM may rule that a lesser NPC who is Knocked Out is simply removed from play for the remainder of the encounter.

 

Comments? The primary thrust of these house rules is to eliminate the motivation for "curbstomping." It has some other consequences, however. A character reduced to zero STUN is no longer automatically at zero DCV; a character with very high CON and defenses may effectively be impossible to be Knocked Out by disproportionately weak attacks. The burden of tracking negative STUN and recoveries are removed from the GM.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Alternate STUN Damage -- Groggy & (alternate) Knocked Out Conditions

 

First, characters can be considered to still be standing at 0 to -9 STUN. I think it's call "out on their feet" or some-such, so I think you're kind of re-inventing the wheel with your "Groggy" status. Also, allowing a Con roll every PS12 while knocked out may actually result in more people being able to get back up than -10 or more stun dropping their Recovery to once per minute (if I remember correctly). Thirdly, the rules already suggest not letting "mooks" have Recoveries after they are knocked out (even just to 0) so if there is a tendancy to "curbstomp" I think it might be partly the GMs fault for having the Viper agents (or whatever) who just got knocked out in two hits by a superhero get up after one turn and charge back into battle shooting. It's not genre appropriate and just shouldn't be an issue.

Another issue that come to mind is that this could possibly make CON much more important, both to prevent being KOed and for waking back up. Not sure how that may effect character builds.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Alternate STUN Damage -- Groggy & (alternate) Knocked Out Conditions

 

It seems to me that one of the most genre-inappropriate aspects of the default Hero System rules are the STUN damage Knockout rules. Because STUN damage continues to be taken into the negative numbers, are the target continues to take recoveries while Knocked Out, the combat system pretty much demands that once you knock somebody out you continue to beat on their unconscious body to prevent them from returning to consciousness. This process is often referred to as "curbstomping." Its singularly un-superheroic-- generally, it literally entails kicking someone while he is down.

 

This is a proposed house rule alternative:

 

1. STUN Damage cannot go into the negative numbers. The lowest possible STUN is zero.

 

2. While his STUN is zero, the target receives the condition "Groggy." A Groggy character remains conscious and typically does not fall down if standing. He can take no actions (including zero-phase actions) except to attempt to take a recovery or shut off active powers. His END immediately drops to zero (Endurance Reserves are unaffected), and he cannot expend his own END in any way (though active Persistent powers that do not cost END may remain on). OCV and OMCV drop to zero, DCV, DMCV, and Hit Location are at 1/2. The STUN damage of any attack made on a target that is Groggy is doubled, but only for purposes of determining Stunning; it cannot take the target into negative STUN. If for any reason (e.g., usually a recovery) the target's STUN rises above zero the Groggy condition immediately ends, but END lost due to the condition is not returned (it can be recovered normally, however).

 

First' date=' characters can be considered to still be standing at 0 to -9 STUN. I think it's call "out on their feet" or some-such, so I think you're kind of re-inventing the wheel with your "Groggy" status. [/quote']

 

I think it just renames being at 0 to -9 STUN. As you are KO'd at this level, Stun damage is already doubled by the RAW. The only change is that you can't drop below 0 STUN, so you can't be fully unconscious by reaching -10 or lower Stun.

 

3. If a character is ever simultaneously subject to both the Groogy and Stunned conditions' date=' both such conditions are automatically removed and replaced with the Knocked Out condition. A Knocked Out character loses consciousness and will typically fall prone if not otherwise supported. All CVs drop to zero, and Hit Location is at 1/2. The character cannot expend END in any way and cannot take any action whatsoever, including taking recoveries. The character can take no further STUN damage while Knocked Out. The character who is Knocked Out does not get any Post-12 recoveries, but instead may make a CON roll at that time. If successful, the Knocked Out condition ends and is replaced with the Groggy condition alone (with the zero STUN and END that condition entails); the character is no longer Stunned and may take a recovery on his next action. If for any reason the character's STUN rises above zero the Knocked Out condition immediately ends. In all other ways Knocked Out is treated as described in default rules. For narrative purposes, a GM may rule that a lesser NPC who is Knocked Out is simply removed from play for the remainder of the encounter.[/quote']

 

Seems like 1d6 Selective AoE Aid or Healing to STUN becomes an extremely potent ability under these rules. Given most Supers will have a CON roll of 14- or better (it's not that uncommon to see Bricks with 17- or even more, and this system will enhance that), no one will stay down for long in a Supers game. Even Joe Normal recovers 62.5% of the time, as Bigbywolf points out. Now, at -11 to -20, they get a REC every PS 12, but your system provides no means of reaching -30 (recover only every minute) or -40 (GM discretion).

 

Comments? The primary thrust of these house rules is to eliminate the motivation for "curbstomping." It has some other consequences' date=' however. A character reduced to zero STUN is no longer automatically at zero DCV; a character with very high CON and defenses may effectively be impossible to be Knocked Out by disproportionately weak attacks. The burden of tracking negative STUN and recoveries are removed from the GM.[/quote']

 

High CON is the ultimate defense under this model. No one will stay down for long. Time to buy Killing Attacks if you want opponents to stay down!

 

Thirdly' date=' the rules already suggest not letting "mooks" have Recoveries after they are knocked out (even just to 0) so if there is a tendancy to "curbstomp" I think it might be partly the GMs fault for having the Viper agents (or whatever) who just got knocked out in two hits by a superhero get up after one turn and charge back into battle shooting. It's not genre appropriate and just shouldn't be an issue. [/quote']

 

I dislike the "no REC for mooks" concept. However, I suggest it is not the possible recovery which encourages curbstomping, but the GM who has every opponent who is back at positive STUN charge back into battle shooting. Seriously, why would that VIPER agent not look around, see 2/3 to 3/4 of the other agents on the ground and the rest fighting a losing battle or fleeing (why would they fight to the last man?) and leap to his feet, blaster blazing? Slink away and hope not to get nabbed and jailed seems the more likely choice of a cowardly criminal. A true Hero might get back on his feet and return to the fray, striving to the end to defend Truth, Justice, et cetera, but VIPER agents and super criminals aren't made of such stern stuff.

[Epiphanis]

Re: Alternate STUN Damage -- Groggy & (alternate) Knocked Out Conditions

 

Thanks for the feedback. I think curbstomping is totally a thing; in most cases under the default rules to get to the negative 30s of STUN you have to boot somebody in the head at least once or twice after they've already fallen to the ground. It may be the better answer to my dilemma is simply to say once you reach negative STUN you are out of the fight, period.

 

The CON roll for my suggested rule is indeed easy to make, but it is only taken post-12 (as opposed to a recovery taken every phase) and has no potential to put the KOed combatant immediately back in action. Where under default rules a high-REC character will often immediately be clear of the "double STUN" zone upon taking a recovery, under my rule you have to take a recovery on your next action after the post-12 CON roll before being free of it. Possibly a better result would be to make the post-12 CON roll only possible on the post-12 AFTER the round in which you are KOed. However, at that slow a rate of recovery it might be preferable simply to rule that no STUN=no more fight for you.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Alternate STUN Damage -- Groggy & (alternate) Knocked Out Conditions

 

Thanks for the feedback. I think curbstomping is totally a thing; in most cases under the default rules to get to the negative 30s of STUN you have to boot somebody in the head at least once or twice after they've already fallen to the ground. It may be the better answer to my dilemma is simply to say once you reach negative STUN you are out of the fight, period.

 

The CON roll for my suggested rule is indeed easy to make, but it is only taken post-12 (as opposed to a recovery taken every phase) and has no potential to put the KOed combatant immediately back in action.

 

A character is also reduced to PS 12 recoveries on falling below -9 STUN. A 35 defense character (pretty high, in my view) hit by a fairly standard 12d6 attack when he's at 0 STUN (pretty easy since, being KO'd, his DCV drops) takes an average of 42 x 2 = 84 STUN - 35 defenses = 49 more STUN - bye bye! In your model, he's probably back up, albeit groggy, at the next PS 12 (and need only stay down for his next phase to recover and be back up). The same character playing by the RAW isn't getting back up.

 

Where under default rules a high-REC character will often immediately be clear of the "double STUN" zone upon taking a recovery' date=' under my rule you have to take a recovery on your next action after the post-12 CON roll before being free of it. Possibly a better result would be to make the post-12 CON roll only possible on the post-12 AFTER the round in which you are KOed. However, at that slow a rate of recovery it might be preferable simply to rule that no STUN=no more fight for you.[/quote']

 

At -10 STUN, the character will recover in PS 12 and likely have some STUN and END at the start of the next turn. The lower he goes, however, the longer he is down. In my view, simply acknowledging 0 to -9 STUN does not mean the character falls to the ground (ie following the RAW), but is, as the rules state, "more like he's deeply stunned" (6e v2 p106) largely alleviates the curbstomping issue. Especially when we remember any knockback damage resulting from the hit that reduced the target to 0 or less stun is also doubled, so likely adds a bit more damage.

 

I see your approach more likely to lead to characters Covering a fallen target to be able to knock them back down when they make that CON roll and get back up. No one will be down for long - certainly not long enough for the boys from Stronghold to secure them!

[Christopher]

Re: Alternate STUN Damage -- Groggy & (alternate) Knocked Out Conditions

 

It seems to me that one of the most genre-inappropriate aspects of the default Hero System rules are the STUN damage Knockout rules. Because STUN damage continues to be taken into the negative numbers' date=' are the target continues to take recoveries while Knocked Out, the combat system pretty much demands that once you knock somebody out you continue to beat on their unconscious body to prevent them from returning to consciousness. This process is often referred to as "curbstomping." Its singularly un-superheroic-- generally, it literally entails kicking someone while he is down.[/quote']

The others have already pointed it out, that this is not using the rules as written (and as sugested). In fact I wondered if you even talked about any of the systems I know (5E and 6E).

 

0 too -9 means you are "K.O." but could still be standing. You can't act (except for taking recoveries). If you take a recovery, you are propably back with a little End and STUN. You can even still notice events with a perception roll.

-10 too -19 you are propably on the ground. You only recover once every post segment 12 and if that doesn't brings you onto the next level, you have to repeat that.

at -20 or less you are for all intents out of the fight. You recover once every Minute (12 Turns).

These time periods can be increased with somebody helping you (slapping or throwing water into face, shaking awake).

 

Some games even go so far as to increase these steps, usually to CON. so a 20 Con character could still be standing at -19 STUN, -20 too -39 means they recover once per turn, etc.

This is mostly done to lower the "PC"-downtime.

 

Simply ignoring the agents once they reach 0 STUN or less helps. If they aren't relevant, there is no need to track them. The same way ingore them (consider them dead) once they reach 0 body in heroic games. Some go farther and even use special "1-hit", 2-hit or 3-hit agents. Or take multiple foes and put them onto a single sheet (traking a whole 3-10 man squad, instead of every single character).

For important foes (Supervillains), there are things like the Cover Maneuver and Presence attack "give up". Just getting back too halfway conscious, while being prone and with three guns in the face (that can go of as 0-phase actions) isn't the time you get back up. If you do, you asked to be knocked out really hard despite being on the ground (the "stay down"/"give me an excuse" situation).

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Alternate STUN Damage -- Groggy & (alternate) Knocked Out Conditions

 

The others have already pointed it out' date=' that this is not using the rules as written (and as sugested). In fact I wondered if you even talked about any of the systems I know (5E and 6E).0 too -9 means you are "K.O." but could still be standing. You can't act (except for taking recoveries). If you take a recovery, you are propably back with a little End and STUN. You can even still notice events with a perception roll.-10 too -19 you are propably on the ground. You only recover once every post segment 12 and if that doesn't brings you onto the next level, you have to repeat that.at -20 or less you are for all intents out of the fight. You recover once every Minute (12 Turns).These time periods can be increased with somebody helping you (slapping or throwing water into face, shaking awake).Some games even go so far as to increase these steps, usually to CON. so a 20 Con character could still be standing at -19 STUN, -20 too -39 means they recover once per turn, etc.This is mostly done to lower the "PC"-downtime.Simply ignoring the agents once they reach 0 STUN or less helps. If they aren't relevant, there is no need to track them. The same way ingore them (consider them dead) once they reach 0 body in heroic games. Some go farther and even use special "1-hit", 2-hit or 3-hit agents. Or take multiple foes and put them onto a single sheet (traking a whole 3-10 man squad, instead of every single character).For important foes (Supervillains), there are things like the Cover Maneuver and Presence attack "give up". Just getting back too halfway conscious, while being prone and with three guns in the face (that can go of as 0-phase actions) isn't the time you get back up. If you do, you asked to be knocked out really hard despite being on the ground (the "stay down"/"give me an excuse" situation).[/quote']Minor nit-pick: turns are 12 seconds and a minute is 5 such turns, not 12.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Alternate STUN Damage -- Groggy & (alternate) Knocked Out Conditions

 

Personally, I've long had the house rule that rather than basing negative CON tiers on -10 increments, its -CON increments instead.

 

Thus a character with 20 CON has KO tiers of -20, -40, -60 (etc); and a character with 30 CON has KO tiers of -30, -60, -90.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Alternate STUN Damage -- Groggy & (alternate) Knocked Out Conditions

 

KS, how much have you used that structure in a Supers, rather than heroic, setting? It seems like it would make combat extremely long in Supers games with, say, a 30+ CON Brick. Just curious about the extent of experience in that regard.

 

It seems like this would work better in Heroic where CON levels would be less extreme, for the most part, and BOD damage would be more common.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Alternate STUN Damage -- Groggy & (alternate) Knocked Out Conditions

 

I actually started using it for superheroic campaigns after a few high-CON brickish characters ignominiously spent one too many combats at or near "GM's discretion land".

 

It has more effect and is thus more significant and worth doing in campaign settings w/ high CON variance (e.g. - superheroic, or similar). It has less effect and is thus largely insignificant in a campaign w/ low CON variance.

 

If the range of CON's is something like 10 to 20 (with a tendency to fall along breakpoints), then the total net effect is small and will come up less often. For instance if a character has 13 CON, though it will perhaps be _more appreciated_ when it does happen, the case where the character happens to be at -11, -12, or -13, or -21, -22, ..., -25, -26, etc (the extra "pad" this house rule grants them) is a relatively occasional thing.

 

 

It might prolong a specific combat, but it doesn't make combats significantly longer in the general sense. It ultimately benefits PC's much more than NPC's as they are "featured" in far more combats, and also I don't allow "minions" to recover once KO'd (which helps speed combat quite a bit unto itself, as an aside).