Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

I don't generally mind letting the Summoner build his own Summons and/or run them in game. But the former remains subject to GM approval, and the latter can be overridden where necessary for [say it with me] common sense or dramatic sense. IOW, these are not "your characters", but "NPC's you are generally permitted to run due to your close connection"

[sporeworld]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Update: I saw big differences between building the Summon creatures from a "Man, it would be a lot of fun to play this" vs. "How would I win in a PvP match" (which I never do - not even in video games - I find in nauseating).

 

+++

 

One of the How-Would-I-Win approaches yielded a guy who goes desolid, and becomes a conduit or gateway to another dimension - probably like an Elemental Summoner. The "Fire Imps" would appear, also Desolid, with their flaming bodies and for their first action, leap out and grab the opponent(s). Craploads of Advantages make for very expensive, low dice attacks. But a different approach was to have TRIGGERS on most of the powers (touch) and AoE/No Range Surfaces modifiers. This Quasi-Physical fire power would be either NND against Power Defense or other Quasi-Physical defense (even MindBlast/Mental Fire). Other Trigger powers were all bought Always ON to emulate (or should I say "immolate" - ahahah) a Flaming Body. I'm assuming a character could have several powers with Triggers all active at the same time, so long as no single power exceeded the Active Point cap(?).

 

The advantage: the little imps really only have one attack - Grab. So +OCV is pretty cheap. Their Defense is that all their powers Affect Physical World, and that you need to affect Desolid, or have Quasi-Physical Fire powers to affects them (although I imagine normal Drains probably SHOULD work in many situations). Anyhoo, the idea is that each one only does a very small amont of damage - maybe 4 or 5 points. But you could presumably get hit by 2 or 3 of these each phase, and they're 7-8 speed. And when there's more than one, this becomes a problem for some characters.

 

The imps all have Shrinking and DCV's to represent them frantically boping around. Any scrapper or brick is going to take heaps of damage for hitting them, which, If I understand it correctly, would ALSO could happen if the Imps grab the Brick in another phase.

 

But ultimately, I don't think this character would be much fun. Just a drag on combat. At this point, I'd probably allow it, as it's so situational, I think the novelty would wear off quick!

 

+++

 

As mentioned above by Hugh, many of the powers work a lot more efficiently if they are just POWERS cast from the "Summoner" with a Special Effect of little robots doing the work. But this has been (and continues to be) a fun exploration of a new power (to me) and where we could take it.

 

Thanks for the input.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

The combination of the Trigger Advantage and Effect Physical World is going to make these things really expensive. Also, every form of Desolidification has to be affected by at least one SFX. It still kind of seems like you're giving "examples" of problem Power builds without actually giving examples, ei. building them and posting them and letting us actually discuss if an actual individual build it is legal/balanced/broken/et cetera.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Update: I saw big differences between building the Summon creatures from a "Man, it would be a lot of fun to play this" vs. "How would I win in a PvP match" (which I never do - not even in video games - I find in nauseating).

 

+++

 

One of the How-Would-I-Win approaches yielded a guy who goes desolid, and becomes a conduit or gateway to another dimension - probably like an Elemental Summoner. The "Fire Imps" would appear, also Desolid, with their flaming bodies and for their first action, leap out and grab the opponent(s). Craploads of Advantages make for very expensive, low dice attacks. But a different approach was to have TRIGGERS on most of the powers (touch) and AoE/No Range Surfaces modifiers. This Quasi-Physical fire power would be either NND against Power Defense or other Quasi-Physical defense (even MindBlast/Mental Fire). Other Trigger powers were all bought Always ON to emulate (or should I say "immolate" - ahahah) a Flaming Body. I'm assuming a character could have several powers with Triggers all active at the same time, so long as no single power exceeded the Active Point cap(?).

 

The advantage: the little imps really only have one attack - Grab. So +OCV is pretty cheap. Their Defense is that all their powers Affect Physical World, and that you need to affect Desolid, or have Quasi-Physical Fire powers to affects them (although I imagine normal Drains probably SHOULD work in many situations). Anyhoo, the idea is that each one only does a very small amont of damage - maybe 4 or 5 points. But you could presumably get hit by 2 or 3 of these each phase, and they're 7-8 speed. And when there's more than one, this becomes a problem for some characters.

 

The imps all have Shrinking and DCV's to represent them frantically boping around. Any scrapper or brick is going to take heaps of damage for hitting them, which, If I understand it correctly, would ALSO could happen if the Imps grab the Brick in another phase.

 

But ultimately, I don't think this character would be much fun. Just a drag on combat. At this point, I'd probably allow it, as it's so situational, I think the novelty would wear off quick!

 

+++

 

As mentioned above by Hugh, many of the powers work a lot more efficiently if they are just POWERS cast from the "Summoner" with a Special Effect of little robots doing the work. But this has been (and continues to be) a fun exploration of a new power (to me) and where we could take it.

 

Thanks for the input.

 

These look interesting, possibly game-dangerous (versus breaking). But they all also look moderately expensive.

 

My suggestion is to build out some of these ideas and see what the actual points cost to... My guess, the imps won't be as cost effective as they might appear in the planning stage.

[sporeworld]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

The combination of the Trigger Advantage and Effect Physical World is going to make these things really expensive. Also' date=' every form of Desolidification has to be affected by at least one SFX. It still kind of seems like you're giving "examples" of problem Power builds without actually [i']giving examples[/i], ei. building them and posting them and letting us actually discuss if an actual individual build it is legal/balanced/broken/et cetera.

 

I'm trying to understand the thinking, but if that's easier, I've built dozen of variation of these different creatures. What's the best format to export them as, and how do I post them?

 

Here's a TEXT version of one of the powers, littered with "challenges" to the rules and GM's sense of fair play...

Fiery (TRIGGER) Attack (Compound Powers - Linked & Unified)

1) Fiery (ED) Aura - Trigger - Do NOT Touch!: Blast 3d6+1 (standard effect: 10 STUN, 4 BODY),

20 (81 Active Points)

Penetrating (+1/2), (The idea is to get a few points of damage in)

Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2),

Trigger - TOUCH (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; +3/4),

Affects Physical World (+2)

No Range (-1/2),

Cannot Use Targeting (-1/2), (This one is weird with the other modifiers)

Linked (Astral Bite)Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; -1/2),

SPZ: Can Only be Used With [specific combat maneuver] - Must Involve a Grab (-1/2), (Not sure how to word that - the idea is that an opponent wouldn't take damage if the imp wasn't in GRAB mode, with all it's appropriate OCV/DCV modifiers).

Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-1/2), (Everything touched burns / takes full damage - Floor, friends, clothes, etc. Leaves a trail of scorched material behind)

Unified Power (-1/4),

No Knockback (-1/4) 0

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

I meant the whole creature, not just a single power, but it's a start. What's the RP (Real Points)? (EDIT: Just did the math. 23 points if we actually allow all the Limitation you use, which I doubt we will) Cannot Use Targeting is questionable. Is your campaign using Hit Locations or allowing Called Shots even if they generally are not used? I don't think you get a Limitation for "Only When Using Grab Manuever". Instead the Trigger should be defined as "Grabbing" not "Touch". If you want a Power that works whenever you touch anything many GMs would require you to use a Damage Shield (a type of AoE in 6E) which might, funny enough, get rid of the need for Trigger all together. What does SPZ mean? How does "Astral Bite" work? Can the character use it at the same time? Does he have to use it at the same time? Not sure if I'd give you a full -1/2 on the Side Effect, would have to see the whole build. Since you put the Limitation of "only when performing Grab" how is it that he burns everything, friend, foe, and environment, even though the Power isn't supposed to work when he is not Grabbing someone? If you do allow that Side Effect the character can't stand anywhere more than a few Phases without falling through the hole he burns in the floor, or sinking into his own little crater he burns in the ground with his Penetrating Attack Power that burns everything.

 

Can't pick it apart much more without checking my books, but I think most GMs would look at this and think "munchkin build" unless it was presented with a full character and a tight SFX justification. And even then I don't think most would allow it as written due to some of the Limitations.

[sporeworld]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

...Cannot Use Targeting is questionable. Is your campaign using Hit Locations or allowing Called Shots even if they generally are not used?

We haven't decided yet, but 80% sure we will.

 

I don't think you get a Limitation for "Only When Using Grab Manuever". Instead the Trigger should be defined as "Grabbing" not "Touch". If you want a Power that works whenever you touch anything many GMs would require you to use a Damage Shield (a type of AoE in 6E) which might' date=' funny enough, get rid of the need for Trigger all together. [/quote']

Yeah - wasn't sure how to represent a good Damage Shield properly. I'm imagining my sister Pomeranian, if it's fur were fire. I'd get burnt just holding it, but then all 5 pointy areas start raking my skin - it's a true terror. So, I'm thinking that "mode" of "grabbing" is the key to the image - if it isn't actively in that mode of grabbing or being grabbed, it wouldn't go off.

 

What does SPZ mean?

Special - as in "I couldn't find the exact thing, so this wording is special - take note".

 

How does "Astral Bite" work? Can the character use it at the same time? Does he have to use it at the same time? Not sure if I'd give you a full -1/2 on the Side Effect' date=' would have to see the whole build. [/quote']

Very similar, attack that goes off after the grab.

 

Since you put the Limitation of "only when performing Grab" how is it that he burns everything' date=' friend, foe, and environment, even though the Power isn't supposed to work when he is not Grabbing someone? [/quote']

Power Only Works when grabbing. When grabbing, everything burns. It's not Always On. That make sense?

 

If you do allow that Side Effect the character can't stand anywhere more than a few Phases without falling through the hole he burns in the floor' date=' or sinking into his own little crater he burns in the ground with his [i']Penetrating[/i] Attack Power that burns everything.

That's the idea. Firey Imps aren't practical in our "realm" or Environment. Ferocious, biting, burning, destructive sprites that should be banished before doing serious harm. In the hands of a Hero, this is a huge liability. Even for a villain - you're not going to make a clean getaway with THEM around. Can't go indoors, can't get in vehicles, and so on.

 

Can't pick it apart much more without checking my books' date=' but I think most GMs would look at this and think "munchkin build" unless it was presented with a full character and a tight SFX justification. And even then I don't think most would allow it as written due to some of the Limitations.[/quote']

What's a "Munchkin Build"? And why is that bad?

[sporeworld]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Q: Assuming a person doesn't go over their Character's Active Limit, there isn't a rule against having multiple Triggered powers (Damage Shields) on at the same time, is there? It certainly feels wonky from a balancing perspective, as running (3) 80 point powers uses the same END and Active Points as (1) 240 point power. But if each power is applied to defenses separately, it's not equivalent.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

"Not a rule against" does not equal "balanced". As to some of your other questions a munchkin is a power gamer, someone who tries to twist the rule to their benifit regardless of character concept or balance. Someone who ignores the "spirit of the law" (often while pointing out "but it's not against the rules!"). Your side effect still doesn't make sense to me. In one breath you say it only works while they are grabbing someone and in the next you explain that a villain could not bring them in vehicles or buildings because the damage caused by the side effect. Which is it? If it only works while they are grabbing someone they can go anywhere they dang well please without causing damage as long as they don't Grab someone. Maybe it's me but one of us is missing something here. Lastly, a good rule of thumb for if you don' know how to build something (like damage shield mentioned earlier) is to check the index and then ask the forum if that doesn't help.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Another random thing. Some GMs won't let you use +1 or 1/2 dice with Normal damage attacks (with the exception of 1/2d6 from STR) because there isn't such thing as 1/3 of a Damage Class. With Killing Damage each partial die (+1, 1/2, 1d6) is a full DC so 1d6Killing is 3 DC. But with Normal Damage 1 die generally equals 1 DC (before mofiers of course).

[Christopher]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

One of the How-Would-I-Win approaches yielded a guy who goes desolid, and becomes a conduit or gateway to another dimension - probably like an Elemental Summoner. The "Fire Imps" would appear, also Desolid, with their flaming bodies and for their first action, leap out and grab the opponent(s). Craploads of Advantages make for very expensive, low dice attacks. But a different approach was to have TRIGGERS on most of the powers (touch) and AoE/No Range Surfaces modifiers. This Quasi-Physical fire power would be either NND against Power Defense or other Quasi-Physical defense (even MindBlast/Mental Fire). Other Trigger powers were all bought Always ON to emulate (or should I say "immolate" - ahahah) a Flaming Body. I'm assuming a character could have several powers with Triggers all active at the same time, so long as no single power exceeded the Active Point cap(?).

 

The advantage: the little imps really only have one attack - Grab. So +OCV is pretty cheap. Their Defense is that all their powers Affect Physical World, and that you need to affect Desolid, or have Quasi-Physical Fire powers to affects them (although I imagine normal Drains probably SHOULD work in many situations). Anyhoo, the idea is that each one only does a very small amont of damage - maybe 4 or 5 points. But you could presumably get hit by 2 or 3 of these each phase, and they're 7-8 speed. And when there's more than one, this becomes a problem for some characters.

 

The imps all have Shrinking and DCV's to represent them frantically boping around. Any scrapper or brick is going to take heaps of damage for hitting them, which, If I understand it correctly, would ALSO could happen if the Imps grab the Brick in another phase.

 

But ultimately, I don't think this character would be much fun. Just a drag on combat. At this point, I'd probably allow it, as it's so situational, I think the novelty would wear off quick!

First, the attack must be allowed. A attack should never have a not likely Defense. Penetrating in a world without Impenetrable Defenses is propably such a case.

As is NND (Power Defense) in a world without Power Defense. I also regard NND's as prime candidates for powers that should be blockable with a VPP slot or some preparation.

The ultimative argument against Munchkin Attack builts is: If you (the player) can built it, then your foes can build it.

 

Second, the attack must be allowable for a Desolid being. Yes, even with +2 "Affects Physical World" you don't have to allow Desolid being to attack people

 

Third, every Desolid needs a weakness. For this I would think Water is a good one.

 

Fourth, the GM needs to allow you to built that Summon without requiring "Affects Physical World" on the Summon. As the book points out, if the Summoned being can affect Solid Characters easily, the summon should need that Advantage.

This one can easily bust up the point efficiency.

 

Fith, Desolid only prevents so much. You still need to breath, eat and sleep for example. You still need gravity, need to move to your target.

 

Sixth, the entire built (Desolid Summoner) must be allowed by the GM,

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

I'm trying to understand the thinking, but if that's easier, I've built dozen of variation of these different creatures. What's the best format to export them as, and how do I post them?

 

Here's a TEXT version of one of the powers, littered with "challenges" to the rules and GM's sense of fair play...

Fiery (TRIGGER) Attack (Compound Powers - Linked & Unified)

1) Fiery (ED) Aura - Trigger - Do NOT Touch!: Blast 3d6+1 (standard effect: 10 STUN, 4 BODY),

20 (81 Active Points)

 

Penetrating (+1/2), (The idea is to get a few points of damage in)

Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2),

Trigger - TOUCH (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; +3/4),

Affects Physical World (+2)

 

I'd allow the 3d6+1, but +1 does not add any BOD. 1/2d6 only has a 50% chance of adding 1 BOD. I don't care about the Penetrating rule - that rule is assinine. At best I would allow you to roll 1d6 and get 1 BOD, and thus 1 point penetrating, on a 6, but that's not Standard Effect.

 

Another poster already addressed Affects Solid World. 6e v1 p290 is very clear if you want to Summon while Desolid, the Summon itself will also require Affects Solid World.

 

Touching is most certainly an action the character controls, so Trigger should not be reduced. "Touches" and Is grabbed" are two separate conditions, further increasing the cost of the Trigger. +1/4 AoE Surface (2 meters; self) works much better. So that's 18*4.25 = 76 AP for 3 1/2d6 (11 STUN, 3 BOD).

 

No Range (-1/2),

Cannot Use Targeting (-1/2), (This one is weird with the other modifiers)

Linked (Astral Bite)Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; -1/2),

SPZ: Can Only be Used With [specific combat maneuver] - Must Involve a Grab (-1/2), (Not sure how to word that - the idea is that an opponent wouldn't take damage if the imp wasn't in GRAB mode, with all it's appropriate OCV/DCV modifiers).

Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-1/2), (Everything touched burns / takes full damage - Floor, friends, clothes, etc. Leaves a trail of scorched material behind)

Unified Power (-1/4),

No Knockback (-1/4) 0

 

What is the Greater Power to which this is linked? Note that, if that power is normally on, it drops to -1/4. As well, the other power needs to be higher AP or the base limitation falls to -1/4. The other power also cannot be Always On, of course.

 

Must involve a Grab has to go, as others have indicated. Otherwise, the power does not work as you outline. I'd also bounce the Side Effect as a natural result of AoE Surface. What he touches burns. That leaves 1 1/2 limitations assuming Linked is valid, so 30 real points. Any Super with Impenetrable defenses is unaffected, it is readily avoided by staying out of range, and the damage is pretty minimal in any case. Any Super (and 80 AP powers implies we are talking Supers) should easily be able to last long enough to rip up a fire hydrant, locate a fire hose or otherwise force the beast into a body of water, which I assume from its nature would be pretty damaging to a fire imp.

 

And, again, let's see the WHOLE CHARACTER. What prevents me buying this ability without being a Summoned Creature, or even Desolid? I can add quite a few dice then.

 

As I recall, you're working on a 200 point budget, and that's summoning 1 fire imp. What do you spend the rest on? What abilities does the Summoner have?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

This should be built as a Damage Shield anyway, not a Trigger:

 

Area Of Effect: Surface

Constant

Persistent

Reduced Endurance: 0 END

 

If you want this to only affect targets being grabbed then you can add

Only While Grabbing

 

And then hope they don't have enough Strength to break out casually. (many Damage Shields have Always On, this one really shouldn't, the "Only When Grabbing" replaces that bit. Also it won't work when the Imp is Grabbed, only when the aggressor).

[sporeworld]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm enjoying the discussion, and appologize in advance if I'm wasting anyone's time (this is all a joyous diversion for me).

 

I'll try to address the points, and then post the revised build. I'm assuming Raw Text is OK.

 

Quick Overall:

The Summoner goes desolid and summons desolid beings. These being are permanently desolid, with only the fire having any tangible effect. To this send, I probably need to buy the STR as effects desolid.

 

The Summoner's current powers are minimal. Desolid, OIF Body Armor, and Speed (is there an Only Usable for Summons Limitation?). Other personal powers would depend remaining points after Summoning, but the Summons is meant to function as Offense, Control/Defense and Other. The entire concept requires multiple Imps to be effective. If the multiplier added is outlawed, then multiple slots are needed, and there's no a lot of points leftover for them to be more then a nuisance (or light illusions, which might be a better approach completely).

 

SUMMONING DESOLID.

The Overall above addresses this. The summoner and imps are desolid, and stay that way throughout combat.

 

GRAB MODIFIER

Good points. Probably need to lose that. I want them to scorch the earth, even if that's a +0 modifier. I was trying to avoid the Always On approach, but it's probably the better solution.

 

LINKED / UNIFIED

All three Trigger powers are linked, with the top power (most expensive) being the anchor (not sure of the terminology). They all have the same modifiers, and all get turned off with Dispel, some Drains, or certain fire-exhausting special effect.

 

DESOLID LIMITATIONS:

The imps have Life Support. The Summoner does, too, although this would be through a focus. The character SHOULD be stopped cold (pun intended) by the same kind of Drains, Dispels and special effects.

 

PENETRATING / AP:

I really like Penetrating/AP and NND attacks on villians, as it keeps me from doing serious damage to the heroes, but keeps leaves them as a threat. It also keeps the paranoid buying Hardened, Impenetrable, etc. So, if I allow my villains to have it, I'm likely to allow it for the heroes as well.

 

(more to come)

[sporeworld]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Munchkin is a brilliant term! I think I probably operate in those circles, although I certainly hope I don't come off as disregarding character concept or balance (as the latter is the point of this thread).

 

The balance issue is what I'm concerned with - but really as applies to other player characters. When I allow someone to have much higher speeds, I see a lot of resentment from the other players - even if they're ineffectual. This summoner build will probably feel the same - lots of time devoted to the actions of the summoned beings, at the expense of the slower player characters.

 

I think you've all accurately pointed out that this isn't going to be a powerhouse build (certainly not with the added being multiplier removed). Maybe the Slavishly Loyal advantage isn't expensive enough. It's certainly cheaper than the massive points in EGO I'd have to spend, which makes no sense outside of the Summoning Power. No other reason for the EGO.

[sporeworld]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Here's the IMP Build as text (Modified so I could read it). If multiple Aura Attacks are allowed, I'd reduce SPD for the extra slots.

 

The AoE is bought as EBlast Penetrating, but could be a Mental Blast, NND Attack, or other approach to the same effect - just something that can eek in a small amount of stun each phase.

 

The pluses to CV on the Grab maneuver can be altered to fit the group - no idea where you people keep yours these days.

 

Fiery IMP (Revised)

 

10 STR 0

21 DEX 22

10 CON 0

10 BODY 0

8 INT -2

8 EGO -2

8 PRE -2

2 PD 0

2 ED 0

8 SPD 60

4 REC 0

20 END 0

20 STUN 0

Total Characteristics Cost: 74

 

POWERS:

Fiery Aura Attacks - Compound Powers - Linked & Unified

 

DESOLIDIFICATION

27 points (O END)

(affected by Fire Dampener Powers),

Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (60 Active Points);

Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2),

OIF Durable (-1/2),

Unified Power (-1/4)

 

FIERY AURA (3d6 ED Blast) AoE: Surface:

21 points (0 END)

Blast 3d6 (standard effect: 9 STUN, 3 BODY), Persistent (+1/4),

Area Of Effect (1m Surface; +1/4),

Penetrating (+1/2),

Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2),

Constant (+1/2),

Affects Physical World (+2) (75 Active Points);

No Range (-1/2),

Cannot Use Targeting (-1/2),

Linked (Desolidification; -1/2),

Always On (-1/2),

Unified Power (Desolid; -1/4),

No Knockback (-1/4) 0

 

 

 

 

Fiery Aura OTHER Powers

 

 

SHRINKING

10 points (O END)

(0.25 m tall, 0.1953 kg mass, -6 PER Rolls to perceive character, +6 DCV, takes +18m KB),

Persistent (+1/4),

Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (31 Active Points);

Linked (Desolidification; -3/4),

Always On (-1/2),

Easily Perceived (-1/2),

Unified Power (Desolid; -1/4)

 

STR Affects Physical World

5 points ( 2 END)

(+2) (20 Active Points);

Linked (Desolidification) -3/4,

Unified Power (Desolid; -1/4)

applied to STR - Affect Physical World

 

CLINGING

6 points (END)

(22 STR) (14 Active Points);

Linked (Desolidification; -3/4),

Cannot Resist Knockback (-1/4),

Unified Power (Desolid; -1/4)

 

11 points

SPATIAL AWARENESS (Unusual Group)

(32 Active Points);

Linked (Desolidification -3/4),

Restrainable (-1/2),

Always On (-1/2),

Unified Power (Desolid; -1/4)

 

 

LIFE SUPPORT

5 points (O END)

(Safe in Intense Heat; Self-Contained Breathing)

(12 Active Points);

Linked (Desolidification -3/4),

Always On (-1/2),

Unified Power (Desolid; -1/4)

6 points

Darkness to Sight Group 1m radius, (O END)

Persistent (+1/4),

Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2),

Affects Physical World (+2) (19 Active Points);

Linked (Desolidification -3/4),

No Range (-1/2),

Always On (-1/2),

Nonselective Target (-1/4),

Unified Power (Desolid; -1/4)

 

LEAPING +15m

5 points (1 END)

(19m forward, 9 1/2m upward) (Accurate)

(13 Active Points);

Linked (+15 w Grab = Fiery Bite; -3/4),

Unified Power (-1/4),

no Noncombat movement (-1/4)

 

+15 CV w Grab

30 points

+15 with any single attack

 

Total Powers & Skills Cost: 126

Total Cost: 200

200+ Disadvantages

Total Disadvantage Points: 200

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

No Targeting is questionable on an AoE Damage Shield power. Personally I'd make him buy Affects Physical World on the Clinging as well as the STR. Some people disagree, but for characters that are always smaller or larger than standard I'd require you to buy the Characteristics andPowers to represent that (using the Size Template) as per RAW oRules As Written), not Always On Shrinking, especially since this is a Summoned being and that would have cost ramifications. It may not be against the rules but IMO having a whole bunch of Attack Power with Affects Physical World Linke to an Always on Desolidification seems really cheesy. How often will his Desolidification get forcibly turned off? Remember, a Limitation the does not limit the Power is not worth any points. Further more, what is the SFX justification? His attacks can already affect the physical world, why would forcing his body to physically manifest (with a Drain or Suppress) suddenly make them not work? He can burn any physical object as long as it cannot touch him, but if anything can touch him he can no longer interact with it? Seems illogical.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Here's the IMP Build as text (Modified so I could read it). If multiple Aura Attacks are allowed, I'd reduce SPD for the extra slots.

 

The AoE is bought as EBlast Penetrating, but could be a Mental Blast, NND Attack, or other approach to the same effect - just something that can eek in a small amount of stun each phase.

 

The pluses to CV on the Grab maneuver can be altered to fit the group - no idea where you people keep yours these days.

 

Fiery IMP (Revised)

 

10 STR 0

21 DEX 22

10 CON 0

 

Anything that can hit is likely to Stun the target.

 

10 BODY 0

8 INT -2

8 EGO -2

8 PRE -2

2 PD 0

2 ED 0

 

Any atack that gets 12 STUN through will STUN, 22 KO's. Overall, these are glass cannons.

8 SPD 60

4 REC 0

20 END 0

20 STUN 0

 

SPD is extreme.

 

Is this intended to be 5e or 6e? No OCV, DCV, MCV suggests 5e, but the DEX and SPD costs suggest 6e. Assuming 6e and no points spent, DCV 3 makes them easy targets, while 4 REC makes recovering STUN very limited.

 

A simple PRE attack will be very effective in slowing or even routing the Imps.

 

Total Characteristics Cost: 74

 

I get 22 + 60 -6 = 76.

 

POWERS:

Fiery Aura Attacks - Compound Powers - Linked & Unified

 

DESOLIDIFICATION

27 points (O END)

(affected by Fire Dampener Powers),

Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (60 Active Points);

Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2),

OIF Durable (-1/2),

Unified Power (-1/4)

 

It needs a device to stay Desolid? What's the Obvious Focus that allows it to remain Desolid, and can be taken away or targeted by attacks?

 

No way would I allow "fire suppressant powers" as a reasonably common SFX - I'd include water and anything else that would smother a fire. I'd also require a Complication in this regard as things normally harmless can put out fires.

 

FIERY AURA (3d6 ED Blast) AoE: Surface:

21 points (0 END)

Blast 3d6 (standard effect: 9 STUN, 3 BODY), Persistent (+1/4),

Area Of Effect (1m Surface; +1/4),

Penetrating (+1/2),

Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2),

Constant (+1/2),

Affects Physical World (+2) (75 Active Points);

No Range (-1/2),

Cannot Use Targeting (-1/2),

Linked (Desolidification; -1/2),

Always On (-1/2),

Unified Power (Desolid; -1/4),

No Knockback (-1/4) 0

 

It can't be Always On if it shuts down when Desolid does. Linking a 75 AP power to a lower AP power is a -1/4 limitation, not -1/2. May as well make this come from the same OIF - if Desolid goes, this shuts off as well.

 

Fiery Aura OTHER Powers

 

 

SHRINKING

10 points (O END)

(0.25 m tall, 0.1953 kg mass, -6 PER Rolls to perceive character, +6 DCV, takes +18m KB),

Persistent (+1/4),

Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (31 Active Points);

Linked (Desolidification; -3/4),

Always On (-1/2),

Easily Perceived (-1/2),

Unified Power (Desolid; -1/4)

 

Again, it can't be Always On and Linked, and that -3/4 seems very high for Linking to a power that will pretty much always be active. And it grows back to full size when Desolid is shut off? And Easily Perceived is listed under Shrinking as -1/4.

 

STR Affects Physical World

5 points ( 2 END)

(+2) (20 Active Points);

Linked (Desolidification) -3/4,

Unified Power (Desolid; -1/4)

applied to STR - Affect Physical World

 

Again, limitation for Linked is too high. I suspect you're assuming "only when greater power is used at full power", but there is no lesser use for Desolid, so this would not apply. Note reduction of -1/4 for each of Greater power being constant and for lesser power being Instant if Greater power is constant.

 

CLINGING

6 points (END)

(22 STR) (14 Active Points);

Linked (Desolidification; -3/4),

Cannot Resist Knockback (-1/4),

Unified Power (Desolid; -1/4) 11 points

 

SPATIAL AWARENESS (Unusual Group)

(32 Active Points);

Linked (Desolidification -3/4),

Restrainable (-1/2),

Always On (-1/2),

Unified Power (Desolid; -1/4)

 

In addition to Linked vetoing Always On, what drawback is there to a Sense that is always on? How is the sense Restrained? I would not allow this if only Grabbing or Entangle restrain a Desolid character with a Constant damage aura.

 

LIFE SUPPORT

5 points (O END)

(Safe in Intense Heat; Self-Contained Breathing)

(12 Active Points);

Linked (Desolidification -3/4),

Always On (-1/2),

Unified Power (Desolid; -1/4)

 

Life Support is 0 END by default. And why do Fire Imps need air, suffer starvation, require sleep, etc. Isn't a lot of Life Support relevant for these creatures?

 

6 points

Darkness to Sight Group 1m radius, (O END)

Persistent (+1/4),

Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2),

Affects Physical World (+2) (19 Active Points);

Linked (Desolidification -3/4),

No Range (-1/2),

Always On (-1/2),

Nonselective Target (-1/4),

Unified Power (Desolid; -1/4)

 

Same Linked/Always On discrepancy. You will need to roll to hit each target in the radius since it is nonselective - that means anyone outside the radius can presumably see just fine.

 

LEAPING +15m

5 points (1 END)

(19m forward, 9 1/2m upward) (Accurate)

(13 Active Points);

Linked (+15 w Grab = Fiery Bite; -3/4),

Unified Power (-1/4),

no Noncombat movement (-1/4)

 

So he can't Leap without a target to Grab? By the way, it costs 1 END to Leap, plus STR END to Grab, including Affects Solid World. How fast are you going through that 20 END?

 

+15 CV w Grab

30 points

+15 with any single attack

 

Absurdly high, but he could probably make the attack AoE accurate or AoE 1 meter for much less anyway.

 

I would suggest a creature like this would have disadvantages/complications by its nature, regardless of their necessity to balance its points.

 

Oh, and Mentalists will be highly problematic. With an 8 EGO, a 3 MCV and no mental defenses, they will easily KO the imps - or control them!

 

I generally agree w/ Bigbywolf's comments as well, alhough ASW on Clinging seems like overkill. If it solidifies, what is it? Only solid if the fire is doused (or, viewed another way, fire goes out if it solidifies)?

 

One Affects Desolid Dispel or Drain and the creature is effectively demolished - pretty much every power will shut down thanks to their typically low AP and Unified structure. Of course, fire suppressants would be the logical ones to target those fire powers as well.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

What is his CV? Even if it is the default 3, a +15, even if it's only with a single manuever, seems crazy high. What will the campaign average for CV be? I mean, with 18 OCV even with a roll of 17 you will hit a DCV of 12 or less. This imp will regularly hit most Speedsters and Martial Artists fairly regularly. Remember there is more to balance than just points.

[sporeworld]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

No Targeting is questionable on an AoE Damage Shield power. Personally I'd make him buy Affects Physical World on the Clinging as well as the STR. Some people disagree' date=' but for characters that are always smaller or larger than standard I'd require you to buy the Characteristics andPowers to represent that (using the Size Template) as per RAW oRules As Written), not Always On Shrinking, especially since this is a Summoned being and that would have cost ramifications. It may not be against the rules but IMO having a whole bunch of Attack Power with Affects Physical World Linke to an Always on Desolidification seems really cheesy. How often will his Desolidification get forcibly turned off? Remember, a Limitation the does not limit the Power is not worth any points. Further more, what is the SFX justification? His attacks can already affect the physical world, why would forcing his body to physically manifest (with a Drain or Suppress) suddenly make them not work? He can burn any physical object as long as it cannot touch him, but if anything can touch him he can no longer interact with it? Seems illogical.[/quote']

 

Maybe. I'm still learning all the nuances of these rules.

 

The idea is EVERY aspect of this thing is a flaming, easily dispelled body. Not sure how to buy it, but I think a Drain to ANY of the Desolid, would shut off everything else. At that point, the chandelier build falls apart and the imp is un-summoned, and returns whence it came. I don't think a cup of water would do it, but like someone mentioned, a Fire Extinguisher (extremely common) would completely dispel the imps in one phase. That's the idea. Maybe even a Brick who bought the Hulk's Hand Clap maneuver would work, too.

 

Clinging/Str Affects Physical World is a decent call.

 

As for the cheese factor, I'm not really considering that for purposes of a reasoned discussion with my players. We're all accountants trying not to cheat on our taxes, but not leaving money on the table, either.

 

The other way to buy this would be with MASSIVE DCV additions to emulate a wispy, hard to target body (I've seen it used for Teleporting). That might even make more sense, as area effect powers, and maybe people with Growth might bypass that. Any other way to define a semisolid creature, besides maybe Damage Reduction (not currently allowed in our adventures).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Shrinking - shouldn't really be bought as Always On, if you want a permanently small creature, define it as small then buy whatever aspects of being small are applicable. It's a dodgy build IMO.

[sporeworld]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Dodgy build opinion noted.

 

As for shrinking, why is that way preferable? How exactly do you buy down your weight and increase your Knockback? Isn't "Shrinking: Always On" the sensible approach? Also, how do make yourself less percievable?

[dmjalund]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Onepossible way to limit Summoning is that when you summon new creatures, you instantly cancel any commands you have given to the existing ones.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Dodgy build opinion noted.

 

As for shrinking, why is that way preferable? How exactly do you buy down your weight and increase your Knockback? Isn't "Shrinking: Always On" the sensible approach? Also, how do make yourself less percievable?

 

Shrinking (and Growth) are really for characters that change size. For Characters that a permanently a smaller (or larger) size you buy Powers and take Complicatiosn/Disadvantages that represent the permanent state.

 

As for the perceivable part - there are actually charts for size differences for both Perception and To Hit that can be used.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Summon: Am I missing Something Here...?

 

Well, they aren't permanently Shrunken. When their Desolid shuts off, their Shrinking shuts off as well as it is Linked. I'm not sure WHY they grow to full human size in that case - I did ask - but that's the way they are built.

 

If the dodgy limitations are removed, I suspect these creatures, which aren't all that hard to defeat now, become much more expensive or, if reduced to 200 points to fit the budget, much less powerful.