Intelligent Animals and Mental Powers

[Armitage]

Quick opinion sought...

 

If an animal is fully sapient, i.e. it doesn't have the Animal Intelligence Physical Complication and can carry on articulate conversations with anyone who walks by, would you still consider it part of the Animal group for Mental Powers, or is it closer to the Alien group, since its brain doesn't work like a normal animal's brain?

[Christopher]

Re: Intelligent Animals and Mental Powers

 

My appraoch (and the one of the book):

By default everything is in the Human Group (it might be better namend default). Most scenarios, even those with tons of aliens, put everything into that group: Humans, Kryptonians, Martians, Kroloteans.

Only use other groups if you want there to be a "seperate group". That happens most often with Machine Group. It's the most nautral alternative group.

I would not even put animals into the default group in most cases, or give human group mentalist the animal group for free.

Alien is the "so far off, you need special mental powers"-group. It's good when you want beigns to be immune to mental Powers as used by msot beings. On the other hand, they should not have mental powers that affect any other group in return. It's the "untouched by mentalism" area.

 

If you use animal group and make a animal fully sentient, put it into the human group. Putting it into alien makes it harder to affect, while most scenarios say sentient animals are easier to affect.

Perhaps even go one step further: Give them a Complication "Affected by Human and Animal group".

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Intelligent Animals and Mental Powers

 

I'm not a huge fan of the 'class of mind' rules, but if it can have an articulate conversation with anybody who walks by, I'd probably place it in the Human category of minds.

[Armitage]

Re: Intelligent Animals and Mental Powers

 

To elaborate, I'm adapting a magical effect from an old 1e D&D book. It causes all animals in a certain radius to run away, but it is less effective against "intelligent animals".

I suppose Mind Control against the Animal Group with a Limitation that it has reduced effect against animals without the Limited Intellect Complication would be easier.

[Christopher]

Re: Intelligent Animals and Mental Powers

 

To elaborate, I'm adapting a magical effect from an old 1e D&D book. It causes all animals in a certain radius to run away, but it is less effective against "intelligent animals".

I suppose Mind Control against the Animal Group with a Limitation that it has reduced effect against animals without the Limited Intellect Complication would be easier.

that, or perhaps "Animal Intelligence" also means they are easier to affect with Mind Controll Powers as campaign rules? Something like a +10 or +20 on the effect roll/-20 nessesary result?

[pinecone]

Re: Intelligent Animals and Mental Powers

 

Quick opinion sought...

 

If an animal is fully sapient, i.e. it doesn't have the Animal Intelligence Physical Complication and can carry on articulate conversations with anyone who walks by, would you still consider it part of the Animal group for Mental Powers, or is it closer to the Alien group, since its brain doesn't work like a normal animal's brain?

If it can think and reason like a person, it's in the "Persons" group to me...if its "Alien" then it should be baffling to communicate with....

[pinecone]

Re: Intelligent Animals and Mental Powers

 

To elaborate, I'm adapting a magical effect from an old 1e D&D book. It causes all animals in a certain radius to run away, but it is less effective against "intelligent animals".

I suppose Mind Control against the Animal Group with a Limitation that it has reduced effect against animals without the Limited Intellect Complication would be easier.

 

Whats wrong with Pres: Only causes Fear: Only vs non sentients?.....

[Armitage]

Re: Intelligent Animals and Mental Powers

 

Whats wrong with Pres: Only causes Fear: Only vs non sentients?.....

 

Intelligent animals aren't immune, they're just more resistant than normal animals.

As originally written, normal animals fled without a saving throw and intelligent animals got a saving throw to resist.

It's not fear so much as revulsion and a general desire to leave the area. I'm now leaning toward Mind Control, Based on PRE (from Advanced Player's Guide). The Smart template in the Hero System Bestiary provides a bonus to PRE, so it's reasonable to conclude that an intelligent animal will have a higher PRE than an unintelligent version of the same animal.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Intelligent Animals and Mental Powers

 

That's how I'd read it: when an unintelligent animal is hit by a fear effect, it's flight instinct takes over and it gets the heck out of there. An intelligent animal, just like any other intelligent being, has the ability to make a reasoned decision not to follow its instincts.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Intelligent Animals and Mental Powers

 

To elaborate, I'm adapting a magical effect from an old 1e D&D book. It causes all animals in a certain radius to run away, but it is less effective against "intelligent animals".

I suppose Mind Control against the Animal Group with a Limitation that it has reduced effect against animals without the Limited Intellect Complication would be easier.

 

Alternately, could be bought as extra Presence, offensive only, etc etc.

 

Edit: Whoops, ninja'd. S'what I get for not reading the whole thread before answering.

[pinecone]

Re: Intelligent Animals and Mental Powers

 

Intelligent animals aren't immune, they're just more resistant than normal animals.

As originally written, normal animals fled without a saving throw and intelligent animals got a saving throw to resist.

It's not fear so much as revulsion and a general desire to leave the area. I'm now leaning toward Mind Control, Based on PRE (from Advanced Player's Guide). The Smart template in the Hero System Bestiary provides a bonus to PRE, so it's reasonable to conclude that an intelligent animal will have a higher PRE than an unintelligent version of the same animal.

 

But only the Bonus Pres has the lim...so "Intelligent" ones are hit with reduced Pres, and "fearless" ones (Like a mighty Tiger!..) are unimpressed....?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Intelligent Animals and Mental Powers

 

To expand on what has already been said: PRE attacks take no time (but can be made to take time with duration limitations), and require a bit of calculation but are probably the best way to do something like this. Your 15 PRE Druid casts the 'Stampede' Spell, which gives you a bonus to PRE when making PRE attacks against animals of (say) +15 PRE. That +15 PRE is limited "Only when making PRE attacks against Animals" -1/2 and "Bonus only applies to 'Animal' mentalities" -1/2 (although the value will depend on how common intelligent animals are) and "Only to make the target flee" -1/2. 15 Active, 6 Real

 

That means that you make a PRE attack at your base 15+modifiers (for in combat, and all the other stuff), which applies to anything defined as an animal, including intelligent animals, then you add another 3d6 to the PRE attack for 'Animal' mentality targets. Also cheap as chips, if you add other common 'spell type' limitations.

 

Most intelligent animals will be unaffected or caused to hesitate, most 'animal' animals will probably run away, depending on their base PRE. Of course humans are descended from hominids who share recent common ancestors with apes, so you have to ask yourself what is the difference between an intelligent animal and an animal that has evolved intelligence? It may be that many DnD type 'intelligent' animals are smart because of some sort of magical influence but still have 'animal brains'. I mean, whatever explanation you come up with is fine, and DnD specifically defines what are and are not intelligent animals, but this sort of thing may not bear too much thinking about.

[Christopher]

Re: Intelligent Animals and Mental Powers

 

That's how I'd read it: when an unintelligent animal is hit by a fear effect' date=' it's flight instinct takes over and it gets the heck out of there. An intelligent animal, just like any other intelligent being, has the ability to make a reasoned decision not to follow its instincts.[/quote']

This is how it could work.

The dumb animal simply has no reason to fight. "Flee area" is a EGO+10 for them. Maybe EGo+20 if the new area is dangerous.

There might be exceptions (like a tiger and her cubs) and you must decide if they should be able to overcome it then, or not.

[ayinde]

Re: Intelligent Animals and Mental Powers

 

In my games I have found a hand waived control roll is a easy fix for this problem. so for example typicality mentalists are by default effecting humans so humans you need not roll the skill to effect them but human like aliens would require a skill roll (power skill effect "human" mind cost: free skill). the animal skill is far more broad so the common is to just by familiarization with animal minds 8- there is no broad skill for non human like aliens you would have to buy for each encountered.

 

now as for your intelligent animal just give them mental defense only for animal based mental attacks.

[Armitage]

Re: Intelligent Animals and Mental Powers

 

To expand on what has already been said: PRE attacks take no time (but can be made to take time with duration limitations)' date=' and require a bit of calculation but are probably the best way to do something like this. [/quote']

 

The special effect in question isn't really an offensive spell that's cast once.

It's a staff that a wizard created to make traveling in the wilderness safer. When activated it creates a constant field, lasting a full day, that repels animals from the area of effect.

It's hard to make a PRE Attack while sleeping.

 

Here's the relevant portion of the original text:

This wooden staff was enchanted by a wizard who wanted to make his travels in the wilderness less dangerous. When the command word is spoken, the staff creates an area of antipathy in a 20’ radius that will be avoided by normal animals (including giant variations) unless attacked by the staff holder or his party. Animals with higher than animal intelligence can enter the warded area if a successful saving throw versus rod, staff or wand is made.

 

Antipathy, in this case, refers to a specific magical effect, that lasts multiple hours.

 

You cause an object or location to emanate magical vibrations that repel either a specific kind of intelligent creature or creatures of a particular alignment, as defined by you. The kind of creature to be affected must be named specifically. A creature subtype is not specific enough. Likewise, the specific alignment to be repelled must be named.

 

Creatures of the designated kind or alignment feel an overpowering urge to leave the area or to avoid the affected item.

 

A compulsion forces them to abandon the area or item, shunning it and never willingly returning to it while the spell is in effect. A creature that makes a successful saving throw can stay in the area or touch the item but feels uncomfortable doing so. This distracting discomfort reduces the creature’s Dexterity score by 4 points.

 

Different edition, but close enough.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Intelligent Animals and Mental Powers

 

Mind Control 1d6 (Additional Class of Minds class of minds), Persistent (+1/4), Telepathic (+1/4), Constant (+1/2), Cumulative (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Area Of Effect (32m Radius; +1) (40 Active Points); Set Effect (Get away from here!; -1/2), No Range (-1/2) 40/20

 

The additional class of minds allows you to affect animals and intelligent animals, assuming they are different classes of mind.

 

You could probably do something similar and a bit cheaper with Change Environment.

[Christopher]

Re: Intelligent Animals and Mental Powers

 

The special effect in question isn't really an offensive spell that's cast once.

It's a staff that a wizard created to make traveling in the wilderness safer. When activated it creates a constant field, lasting a full day, that repels animals from the area of effect.

It's hard to make a PRE Attack while sleeping.

40 PRE, Only to make autonomous Presense attacks (+0)

 

Note taht thsi is not +40 PRE, but 40 PREsence bought seperately.

 

 

 

Here's the relevant portion of the original text:

 

 

Antipathy, in this case, refers to a specific magical effect, that lasts multiple hours.

 

 

 

Different edition, but close enough.

The closest thing for a D&D "Will save vs. Mental Powers" is the Breakout Mechanic of Mental Powers. And the closest you can get to "no savign Throw" is so much effect that a breakout won't matter (because it happens a decade later).

 

In D&D an animal is clearly defined (Animal Class and Int of 1 or 2).

By the very rules definitions an Animal with (permanent) "higher than animal intelligence" is not of the type "animal" anymore - it's a magical beast or aberation, depending on the Special effect of the Intelligenc Increase

 

I think overall you look a really big amount of Mind Controll (so effect is guaranteed/breakout nearly impossible). A part of the power has a tiny limitation that it does not works against "enlighted" animals.

 

Like I said above, I would built enlighted animals by adding the human mind classe, so they are effected as human and animal. Following that logic:

6d6 Mind controll vs Animal, AoE, 0 END, Persistent/Time Limit/something else, set effect, etc...

plus

+6d6 Mind controll vs Animal, Advantages and Limits as Above, Not vs. beings with additional midn classe (-0*)

 

*this depends heavy on how many being that count as animal and human you will likely encouter (humans getting the animal class might be more common that the other way around), but it will likely not be beyond -1/4.

[Armitage]

Re: Intelligent Animals and Mental Powers

 

In D&D an animal is clearly defined (Animal Class and Int of 1 or 2).

By the very rules definitions an Animal with (permanent) "higher than animal intelligence" is not of the type "animal" anymore - it's a magical beast or aberration, depending on the Special effect of the Intelligence Increase.

 

The magic item in question is from 1st edition AD&D, long before the monster definitions were codified. Greyhawk Adventures hardcover.