On the Grimoire

[Old Man]

So I got hold of a FH Grimoire this week. It's pretty good... but it's not perfect. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great book, but I still think it could use some improvements in a couple of areas.

 

First off is the layout. I can appreciate the nothing-fancy design values, but I'm still having a really hard time reading the entries themselves. The actual game information writeups are just a solid block of italicized text. It takes a lot of reading to pick out the limitations, the active point cost, or even the power itself. The limitations aren't even totalled up! Ideally that whole paragraph would be organized in tabular fashion, and the real point cost should be added to the spell template or as one of the options.

 

I like the index in the back, which is a brilliant idea, but I have a few suggestions to improve that too. First would be to add shading on every other line, or some other mechanism to prevent me from reading the wrong page number for a given entry. Second would be to put more information in the index--adding the real cost and the base power would make it much easier to find a spell to fit a particular need, like if I needed to find an entangle spell on the spur of the moment or if I just needed one more five-point spell to finish the character. And finally, why is the index in six-point type? Couldn't we have added another four sheets of paper and made it easier to read?

 

The second overall improvement that I think could be made is in the spell costs. The vast majority of the spell writeups cost well over ten cp, which is incredibly expensive for a 150-point character. I'm used to spending maybe five or six points per spell, so the Grimoire's power level makes it a lot less useful for me in PC creation. I think a lot of the spells are missing obvious limitations that would bring the costs down to a realistic level, but right now the only affordable spells tend to be the ones based on undercosted powers like forcefield or flight.

 

Otherwise the Grimoire is pretty good. The cover art is not bad, and the internal art varies wildly between really good and teh suck. A lot of the spell concepts are very interesting and creative and I especially like the 'options' feature.

[Lowly Uhlan]

Concerning the high point cost:Page 4 of the Grimoire gives the Turakian Age variant of dividing the real point cost by 3 in order to allow a spellcaster to buy more spells.

[xagen]

I agree

 

I agree Old Man. The Grimoire is nice, but the book's layout is hard to read, specifically the spell descriptions. The old FH books were layed out much better. I'm not crazy about the cover, either, for that matter. It looks very cartoonish. But then, much of Hero's stuff is looking that way these days (FH cover anyone?). I guess old habits die hard (everything's superhero!).

[Old Man]

That last is the most irritating. I've been fighting the perception that Hero is only good for superheroes online and off since 1987. I hate to say it because Storn's stuff is pretty good, but I think Hero needs to do everything it can to bill itself as a truly universal system, and look-and-feel is a big part of that.

 

As for the Grimoire I have decided not to pick it up. I can't use ninety percent of the spells because they're too expensive in real points, and even if I could I can't imagine what it would be like to try and read that block of italics in the middle of a game.

[Toadmaster]

Hmmm, I agree with this "superheroish" feel of FH's cover but I thought the Grimores cover was fine, I din't have any feeling that it was not fantasy. StarHero, UMA and NH also had genre appropriate covers, I could see some debate about TUV but again it was not all that superish but it did have a little of that feel.

[Ndreare]

Although I do not like the way HERO puts su much enphasis on game mechanic, I had no problem with this in the case of the grimore. I simply read the flavor text and skip the game mechanic until it come time to buy the spell.

 

HERO in general has a big problem with the whole "Game Mechanic is The Most Importent Part" thing something that has always been a bug of mine. If i read Palladium or DAD characters I often feel like the game mechanics were thrown in as an after thought (Which is a good thing) as oppossed to when I read a HERO product I feel like they thought of some excuse of a character to justify the compiled game mechanics.

 

I do not run a true "Champions" game instead I always mix in a little of the comics just so I can feel the game. I feel that when Turakian age comes out it will probly have the same problem so I will probly just run the Palladium Fantasy Setting as my primary fanatasy world.

[xagen]

game mechanics

 

While agree that Hero lacks any kind of setting to "draw you in" like other games, I'll have to point out that if D&D and Paladium didn't focus on their rules - it shows! Both of those games in my opinion are unplayable. They totally suck. However, Hero does tend to be a little rules heavy, and I wouldn't wish learning this system on any beginner! I'm just glad I learned in it high school.

 

As for the Grimoire cover, I said it was cartoonish, which it is, but it's not really super heroish. FH is that. Just thought I'd clarify.

[keithcurtis]

Re: game mechanics

 

Originally posted by xagen

While agree that Hero lacks any kind of setting to "draw you in" like other games

 

I have to disagree here. IMO, Terran Empire has tempted me to use a pre-generated campaign like nothing before. If I wasn't a died-in-the-wool do it myself kind'a GM, and if I hadn't just wrapped up a major SF Hero campaign, It would be difficult to resist not using TE.

 

As for the Champions setting, Well,in supers the joy of creation there in spades. That's almost the point of playing Champions, to create my own comic book world.

 

Keith "Deeply anticipating Turakian Age" Curtis

[xagen]

Well...

 

Ok, I admit the Terran setting might be neat (haven't read it). I almost never play SF, so I wouldn't know. I was referring to FH (no setting now, a boring, generic one coming out soon), and Supers. I thought the setting for Champions NM [Fuzion] was MUCH better than the one that Hero has now. But, with so many comics, books, and movies out there, a world isn't hard to create for Champions, if needed.

 

BUT if a game already has a cool setting (L5R, for example), the game is much more likely to grab an audience (you don't think they play that bad White Wolf rip off of a system for the game mechanics, do ya?).

[Toadmaster]

To be fair I haven't really looked at DoJ's specific world books, while I don't begrudge them for putting out specific setting books I am a little bothered that they are putting so much of the genre support material in a form for their specific game worlds. HERO in my opinion is the best (and really only true) generic system capable of handling almost anything and then DoJ throws a lot of their weight behind somewhat restrictive material. NOw the Grimore with some Turakian flavor was nicely done, it still includes a wide range of spells easy to convert to other settings but with a more flavorful description than previous FH magic and spell books. I liked the fact that they still included priestly magic even though the Turokian age priestly magic will be differant and if they had included Rune magic I would have no real complaints. On the other hand I was not all that thrilled with the Spacers toolkit as I felt it was too strongly tied to the Terran Empire setting (no material that didn't fit with that world book).

 

Basically to sum up, I think its great DoJ is providing specific world books but I am a little disappointed that they are breaking away from the generic aspect with much of the supplemental material.

[keithcurtis]

It sounds like Toadmaster wants less campaign material and xagen wants less. See the problem?

 

Also, xagen. Have you read the Turakian Age manuscript? Do you already know it's boring? It might be "generic" in that it has elves-n-dwarves-n-stuff, but that doesn't automatically mean boring. It means broad appeal. If you've already made up your mind to be unhappy with it, there's little I can say. Maybe you'll like one of the two or three other fantasy campaigns Hero has down the pipeline.

 

Keith "Sheesh, they can't win for losing" Curtis

[Old Man]

I see the generic nature of Hero as both a blessing and a curse. Yes, you can do pretty much anything you want with the system--but you still have to do a lot of homework. As of this moment a FH GM has to create an entire campaign setting and all the adventures by himself. That's great if he's got the time and the talent but I am a much lazier gamer. I am more used to playing FH games using D&D modules that the GM skimmed half an hour before the game. And even that requires that the GM be able to convert between game systems on the fly. Setting-specific books are really a requirement for gamers like me.

[Toadmaster]

Originally posted by keithcurtis

It sounds like Toadmaster wants less campaign material and xagen wants less. See the problem?

 

Also, xagen. Have you read the Turakian Age manuscript? Do you already know it's boring? It might be "generic" in that it has elves-n-dwarves-n-stuff, but that doesn't automatically mean boring. It means broad appeal. If you've already made up your mind to be unhappy with it, there's little I can say. Maybe you'll like one of the two or three other fantasy campaigns Hero has down the pipeline.

 

Keith "Sheesh, they can't win for losing" Curtis

 

It's probably my fault, I'm not the best at typing my thoughts out, half the time I have completely reversed my opinion from the time I start until I finish. What I was trying to say is I approve of a book like the Grimore which is still fairly generic in nature but uses a specific setting for flavor, kind of the best of both worlds. I did not much care for The Spacers Toolkit because it was so heavily wrapped around TE. While it still has some value as a generic source book it is limited because it gives nothing useful for StarHero games not set in a world very close to TE and it doesn't sound like DoJ has any plans to release a more comprehensive generic tech book. even the online spacers tool kit is restricted to TE. The Grimore on the otherhand included some important aspects of magic that doesn't form part of the Turakian age which shows consideration to the fact not everybody is planning to use that setting. I understand DoJ needs to supply some premade settings from a buisness standpoint, it is just the material for StarHero has been very restrictive, so far it looks like FH is not following this pattern to my relief. The Grimore is a much better and interesting book than the old magic book.

[Fitz]

Re: Re: game mechanics

 

Originally posted by keithcurtis

I have to disagree here. IMO, Terran Empire has tempted me to use a pre-generated campaign like nothing before. If I wasn't a died-in-the-wool do it myself kind'a GM, and if I hadn't just wrapped up a major SF Hero campaign, It would be difficult to resist not using TE.

 

I agree completely -- I thought TE was great, and if I wasn't so attached to the Space Opera stuff I've already done, I'd be using it myself. In fact, I may do so anyway; none of the characters in my imminent SF campaign carry over from the old one, so it's probably a good time for a milieu change.

 

I'll be very interested to see how Alien Wars pans out too. I have high hopes for it.

[xagen]

Actually...

 

Actually, Keith, I prefer more setting, not less.

 

Also, I haven't made up my mind about the FH setting, but judging by the stuff I've read about it, and the stuff they've released in their past, I can say that I'm not really looking forward to it at this time. However, I have been proven wrong many times in the past, so maybe I will be pleasantly surprised!

 

Wish us luck!