Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

That's patently false' date=' every character in comics have grown stronger over time, some a bit more than others, but they all grow stronger. [/quote']

 

Funny...Superman since Man of Steel in the '80's has been considerably weaker and less durable than his Silver Age incarnation. Captain America had super-strength for a while, but it wore off. Hulk went down in power when he became grey. Thor's been up with the power of Odin and down with half his powers given away at various times. Their abilities rise and fall as the writers require for a good story, and sometimes are altered very obviusly and intentionally, sometimes upwards and sometimes downwards.

 

Who has Colossus become stronger than, prior to the recent storyline upgrade? I don't believe he's changed from being about Thing-level strength over time.

 

There are exceptions - I'd say all the original X-Men became more powerful over the course of their initial run. But they were also young mutants constantly training to enhance their ability to use their mutant power. And I don't think Cyclops' eyebeams, for example, have become more powerful since he was blasting Sentinals apart back in the mid to late 50's of the X-Men's original title.

 

A case could be made that most early Marvel characters got beefed up over time - they struggled with some lame opposition back in the early days - but I'd generally attribute that more to writing styles than any improvement in the characters' stories - when we read flashback tales, we don't tend to see the characters as markedly weaker at that time, and most of those early days villains are still credible threats today, so unless everyone is getting more powerful at about the same pace, I'd have to say the characters don't generally grow markedly in power over time.

[Greywind]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Now, Hugh, don't go interfering with his delusion.

[Blau Stern]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

That's because he keeps getting rebooted and that's practically a new game itself, but even then it still holds true: the longer the character exists (in this case Superman) the stronger they become, it's shown, as time moves forward, Superman gets stronger. For example: he was way stronger just before the latest reboot, than he was in the 90s.

 

I don't actually read the X-Men, but I'd recently asked a friend, who does read, about Colossus, and he said Colossus is a heck of a lot stronger than he used to be. Thing is certainly a lot stronger than he used to be.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

.... it still holds true: the longer the character exists (in this case Superman) the stronger they become' date=' it's shown, as time moves forward, Superman gets stronger. ...[/quote']

 

So you acknowledge that in all versions there exists a starting point in which the character grows beyond.

 

Please point out what the character does in the following video (left/right is flipped) that my previously posted 400 point 6e version cannot accomplish:

 

The Last Son of Krypton (Part III)

 

It's the obviously the same character who puts a beat-down on a powered up Darkseid in Destroyer (the last episode of JL:Unlimited) but much much much earlier in his superhero career.

[Blau Stern]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

The only complaint I had about your 6e version was that he wasn't quite strong enough without dipping into his density increase, and I think his resistant defenses might be a little low, but both of those are easy enough to ignore.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

The only complaint I had about your 6e version was that he wasn't quite strong enough without dipping into his density increase' date=' and I think his resistant defenses might be a little low, but both of those are easy enough to ignore.[/quote']

 

So you have quibbles about his 'static' abilities vs. what he can accomplish via his VPP. You're just complaining about how the build accomplishes things, not what it can accomplish.

 

It's a standard superheroic build for a low level campaign world that invalidates your previous statement.

 

....As I've said' date=' some characters, as well as some character concepts, have no place in a low level campaign. Superman is one of these.....[/quote']

[Blau Stern]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Average campaigns aren't low level. They're mid-tier and you can fit Superman there so long as you make it clear that there aren't that many people more powerful than him and those characters are considering insanely powerful.

[ayinde]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

blau you have some strong views on how the character should be made so you have 400 points make your superman (year 1) use the guidelines for a standard superhero.

[Greywind]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Average campaigns aren't low level. They're mid-tier and you can fit Superman there so long as you make it clear that there aren't that many people more powerful than him and those characters are considering insanely powerful.

 

...or don't call him "Superman". Your bias is showing.

[Blau Stern]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

...or don't call him "Superman". Your bias is showing.

Or don't call him Superman. I could have sworn I said that earlier? Oh wait, I did.

[massey]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Okay, as promised, a 250 Superman. Animated. First week in Metropolis after some sort of reboot event.

 

Str 15/55

Dex 14/27

Con 13/28

Body 10

Int 13

Ego 11

Pre 15/25

Com 12

PD 5/30

ED 5/30

Spd 3/6

Rec 6/17

End 26/56

Stun 25/53

 

Kryptonian Physiology package

Loses power in red sun radiation (-1/4)

Loses power in kryptonite radiation (-1/4)

includes the stat boosts above as well as:

20/20 DR

10" Flight

 

Kryptonian Abilities Multipower

60 points - same limitations as above package

10/10 Force Field

+10" Flight

+20 Str no figured (he can use all 3 of these together at once)

5" Flight Megascale 1" = 100 km, scale down to 1" = 100" (same active points as above Flight)

4D6 RKA Heat Vision

40 Str TK Superbreath

Danger Sense 17-, any area, any danger, functions as sense, discriminatory, analyse "Enhanced Senses"

 

PS: Reporter 11-

Deduction 12-

AK: World 11-

Press Pass

 

Accidental Change: Red K, Always

DNPC Lois

Distinctive Features: Superman!

Psych Lim: Code vs killing

Psych Lim: Protective of innocents

Psych Lim: Stands for truth, justice, and the American way

Rep: Superman! 11- (will increase later)

Secret ID

Susc: Green K, 2D6 per phase

Watching: Luthor, 8- (still figuring out what's up with this guy, will increase later)

 

There you go. As Clark Kent, he normally walks around with his MP in Danger Sense. It can detect any danger to anyone in the city. When adventuring as Superman, he will leave his multipower split between Str, Flight, and a Force Field, giving him 75 Str, 20" Flight, and 40/40 Defense. If he needs to go faster, his megascale flight will allow him to cross Metropolis in an action, or circle the Earth in about two minutes. If he needs a more exotic power like heat vision or superbreath, he will drop down to his normal 10" Flight in his kryptonian package (quit giggling, ladies) and use his entire multipower for that.

 

His first purchase with XP will be Instant Change. After that he'll bulk out his skills and buy a few senses beyond the Danger Sense. Then it's additional multipower slots, some Combat Luck for Clark, and buying up Int, Body and Ego. He'll buy actual Life Support (right now he'll just rely on his massive defenses and high Con for those effects -- good enough for the moment). And upping his Comeliness somewhere in there. Can't have no ugly Superman.

 

Critique away!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

That's because he keeps getting rebooted and that's practically a new game itself' date=' but even then it still holds true: the longer the character exists (in this case Superman) the stronger they become, it's shown, as time moves forward, Superman gets stronger. For example: he was way stronger just before the latest reboot, than he was in the 90s.[/quote']

 

I don't see any indications Superman was getting stronger over time, other than the occasional depowering from which he returned (he was lower powered on returning after Doomsday, but eventually recovered his full powers; his power suite changed in the Energy Superman arc). I think what actually happens is that, the longer he is published, the more likely a writer pushes the envelope for a specific result in a story. That articitic license can easily be attributed to Superman Pushing his powers in desperate and heroic circumstances rather than a continuous incremental increase to his strength.

 

Perhaps you can cite some examples of Supes in the 2000's clearly having an advantage over a foe who was more problematic in the '90's because (ideally stated in the story) he is stronger now than he was then. Or do all his opponents also increase at the same pace, such that everyone in the DCU is gradually becoming stronger over time?

 

I don't actually read the X-Men' date=' but I'd recently asked a friend, who does read, about Colossus, and he said Colossus is a heck of a lot stronger than he used to be. Thing is certainly a lot stronger than he used to be.[/quote']

 

Still waiting for those cites, rather than personal opinion. For the Thing, a lot depends where we start looking. He's had a number of radiation accidents that powered him up. Some years back, in the Grey Hulk days, his powerups and Hulk's power down made him the stronger, but he no longer has the added mutations from that extra powerup, and Hulk's gone back to green, so I'd say that status quo has returned. Old Ben has certainly had lots of opportunities to demonstrate his strength of will and determination, reaching down for that little bit more when it matters the most - but again, artistic license coupled with Pushing provides a more than adequate explanation for that.

 

Ben and Supes are also both "bull in a china shop" characters who don't leap to their full power as an opening attack unless they are 100% certain it's needed, and this opponent can take it. They have a power not often seen in Supers games - restraint.

[psyber624]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Wow, i have plenty of restraint in my super hero games!

 

I call them entangles

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

My Jimmy Olsen, Silver Age.

 

14 EGO 8

 

126 Summon Superman (3000 point creature) OIF Fragile, Extra Time (Extra Phase), Incantations, Charges (1 charge)

 

So, what is your Superman's Ego? I'd expect Jimmy will have a tough time winning that opposed EGO roll - and since you have not added any of the Amicable advantages, then by RAW that's the only way the summoned creature will do anything for him. I'm not sure what Jimmy chants audibly to use his signal watch either, which is what Incantations means, nor why it takes him a full 12 seconds fiddling with the watch to get it to work - it seems a lot faster in the comics. And one charge? Supes seems to show up more than once a day in some of those old Silver Age stories (although it also doesn't always work where these mechanics are infallible - doesn't Supes normally arrive under his own power, rather than in a puff of smoke?)

 

60 point VPP Character has no control over when or how powers change, IIF

 

I assume the IIF is a typo. You complain that a 250 point Superman needs a helpful GM to make him viable, but Jimmy is completely reliant on GM largesse to make this VPP at all useful, and the GM has to look the other way on the lack of Amicable on the Summon as well.

 

IOW, I don't see your build perfectly capturing this character.

[Greywind]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Ben and Supes are also both "bull in a china shop" characters who don't leap to their full power as an opening attack unless they are 100% certain it's needed' date=' and this opponent can take it. They have a power not often seen in Supers games - restraint.[/quote']

 

Superman is also a pacifist.

[Blau Stern]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

So, what is your Superman's Ego? I'd expect Jimmy will have a tough time winning that opposed EGO roll - and since you have not added any of the Amicable advantages, then by RAW that's the only way the summoned creature will do anything for him. I'm not sure what Jimmy chants audibly to use his signal watch either, which is what Incantations means, nor why it takes him a full 12 seconds fiddling with the watch to get it to work - it seems a lot faster in the comics. And one charge? Supes seems to show up more than once a day in some of those old Silver Age stories (although it also doesn't always work where these mechanics are infallible - doesn't Supes normally arrive under his own power, rather than in a puff of smoke?)

 

 

 

I assume the IIF is a typo. You complain that a 250 point Superman needs a helpful GM to make him viable, but Jimmy is completely reliant on GM largesse to make this VPP at all useful, and the GM has to look the other way on the lack of Amicable on the Summon as well.

 

IOW, I don't see your build perfectly capturing this character.

It's summoning Superman, he'll help him out, because it's Superman's nature, not because Jimmy asked it of him. Think of it as summoning an angel to fight a demon, yeah the angel isn't going to do what you say, but he's going to slap the demon around. The special effect is Superman flying in a whirl of blue, red, and yellow.

 

That's right, everything is basically up to the GM on Jimmy's powers, it's not like he really ever chooses his powers, they just happen to him. I complain that a 250 point Superman needs the universe rewritten to make him useful.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

It's summoning Superman' date=' he'll help him out, because it's Superman's nature, not because Jimmy asked it of him. Think of it as summoning an angel to fight a demon, yeah the angel isn't going to do what you say, but he's going to slap the demon around. The special effect is Superman flying in a whirl of blue, red, and yellow.[/quote']

 

He's getting someone who is disposed towards helping him out. That's an Amicable summons. As well, he's summoning a Specific Being - last I looked, that was a +1 advantage. And Superman still answers the watch more than once a day in the comics, so that's no more accurate than your complaint of a Superman in danger in a house fire.

[Greywind]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

It's summoning Superman, he'll help him out, because it's Superman's nature, not because Jimmy asked it of him. Think of it as summoning an angel to fight a demon, yeah the angel isn't going to do what you say, but he's going to slap the demon around. The special effect is Superman flying in a whirl of blue, red, and yellow.

 

That's right, everything is basically up to the GM on Jimmy's powers, it's not like he really ever chooses his powers, they just happen to him. I complain that a 250 point Superman needs the universe rewritten to make him useful.

 

You complain a lot.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Okay, as promised, a 250 Superman. Animated. First week in Metropolis after some sort of reboot event.

 

Str 15/55

Dex 14/27

Con 13/28

Body 10

Int 13

Ego 11

Pre 15/25

Com 12

PD 5/30

ED 5/30

Spd 3/6

Rec 6/17

End 26/56

Stun 25/53

 

Kryptonian Physiology package

Loses power in red sun radiation (-1/4)

Loses power in kryptonite radiation (-1/4)

includes the stat boosts above as well as:

20/20 DR

10" Flight

 

Kryptonian Abilities Multipower

60 points - same limitations as above package

10/10 Force Field

+10" Flight

+20 Str no figured (he can use all 3 of these together at once)

5" Flight Megascale 1" = 100 km, scale down to 1" = 100" (same active points as above Flight)

4D6 RKA Heat Vision

40 Str TK Superbreath

Danger Sense 17-, any area, any danger, functions as sense, discriminatory, analyse "Enhanced Senses"

 

PS: Reporter 11-

Deduction 12-

AK: World 11-

Press Pass

 

Accidental Change: Red K, Always

DNPC Lois

Distinctive Features: Superman!

Psych Lim: Code vs killing

Psych Lim: Protective of innocents

Psych Lim: Stands for truth, justice, and the American way

Rep: Superman! 11- (will increase later)

Secret ID

Susc: Green K, 2D6 per phase

Watching: Luthor, 8- (still figuring out what's up with this guy, will increase later)

 

There you go. As Clark Kent, he normally walks around with his MP in Danger Sense. It can detect any danger to anyone in the city. When adventuring as Superman, he will leave his multipower split between Str, Flight, and a Force Field, giving him 75 Str, 20" Flight, and 40/40 Defense. If he needs to go faster, his megascale flight will allow him to cross Metropolis in an action, or circle the Earth in about two minutes. If he needs a more exotic power like heat vision or superbreath, he will drop down to his normal 10" Flight in his kryptonian package (quit giggling, ladies) and use his entire multipower for that.

 

His first purchase with XP will be Instant Change. After that he'll bulk out his skills and buy a few senses beyond the Danger Sense. Then it's additional multipower slots, some Combat Luck for Clark, and buying up Int, Body and Ego. He'll buy actual Life Support (right now he'll just rely on his massive defenses and high Con for those effects -- good enough for the moment). And upping his Comeliness somewhere in there. Can't have no ugly Superman.

 

Critique away!

 

But you said....

 

... If I were to write up a Superman' date=' I'd give him a big susceptibility to kryptonite (both Stun and a Drain to powers), and a disad where he is Stunned when first exposed. He'd also have a vulnerability to kryptonite-based attacks. Anytime you see him suffering more than his susceptibility would account for, the villain bought it as a power.[/quote']

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Average campaigns aren't low level. They're mid-tier and you can fit Superman there so long as you make it clear that there aren't that many people more powerful than him and those characters are considering insanely powerful.

 

So here again is my low level campaign 250 point 5e starting version of Superman that is built to RAW: The Man of Steel 250

 

He may have a tougher time of it STR wise saving the plane (solved w/Pushing) but he can still do everything my 400 point 6e version can.

[Blau Stern]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

He's getting someone who is disposed towards helping him out. That's an Amicable summons. As well' date=' he's summoning a Specific Being - last I looked, that was a +1 advantage. And Superman still answers the watch more than once a day in the comics, so that's no more accurate than your complaint of a Superman in danger in a house fire.[/quote'] It's only a +1/4 if you just want friendly. +1 is slavishly devoted, which I don't think describes their relationship. This isn't D&D, 1 charge isn't reloaded every day, it's reloaded based on appropriate scene. Besides, it's not that hard to disregard the VPP to make the summon work.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

It's summoning Superman, he'll help him out, because it's Superman's nature, not because Jimmy asked it of him. Think of it as summoning an angel to fight a demon, yeah the angel isn't going to do what you say, but he's going to slap the demon around. The special effect is Superman flying in a whirl of blue, red, and yellow.

 

That's right, everything is basically up to the GM on Jimmy's powers, it's not like he really ever chooses his powers, they just happen to him. I complain that a 250 point Superman needs the universe rewritten to make him useful.

 

It doesn't matter if that's the power level of your campaign world anyway. I would never (unless I was setting aside points to be spent later) create "Superman" on fewer points than the campaign allowed, but I would consult with the GM to see how many points that is. If the campaign allows 500-point characters then I'll build a 500-point "Superman". Likewise if the campain allows 1,000-point characters, that's the limit I'd build him to. I am not suggesting that I would submit a 250-point "superman" in either campaign. In those worlds, he'd just be a wanna-be. In a world with a 250-point limit, a 250-point "Superman" is completely reasonable.

[massey]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

But you said....

 

Sacrifices must be made when you cram characters.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Sacrifices must be made when you cram characters.

The post I referenced was about disadvantages.

[Blau Stern]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

It doesn't matter if that's the power level of your campaign world anyway. I would never (unless I was setting aside points to be spent later) create "Superman" on fewer points than the campaign allowed' date=' but I would consult with the GM to see how many points that is. If the campaign allows 500-point characters then I'll build a 500-point "Superman". Likewise if the campain allows 1,000-point characters, that's the limit I'd build him to. I am not suggesting that I would submit a 250-point "superman" in either campaign. In those worlds, he'd just be a wanna-be. In a world with a 250-point limit, a 250-point "Superman" is completely reasonable.[/quote']That's "Superman" who isn't the same as Superman, because Superman doesn't cut corners with his powers, he just has them, there's no multipower juggling, just incredibly powerful alien.

 

You are basically singing to the choir on this.