Experience and multiform

[Beazulbob]

When you get xp, how do you apply it? Do you get a single allotment that you must apply to forms singularly. Does it apply to your primary form and you can increase the MF forms (put 5 points into MF, add 5 to each form?), or a third option I hadn't thought of.

 

If you can only apply it to a single form, the character will quickly grow weak compared to PCs who are not dividing their xp.

 

Ideally, it seems that the xp spent on the prime form is static w/ the xp, with a limitation on how high you can build up your MF (not more then the prime form +xp, less the cost of MF), but I think that's my home rules, not the official one.

[Beazulbob]

Re: Experience and multiform

 

If only xp is given to an individual form, does that mean that if more then 1 MF takes action in the game, they receive xp seperately?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Experience and multiform

 

The base character (the one who bought the Multiform power) gets all the XP. I don't let a Multiform character buy his Multiform points higher than the base character value plus the XP that's been earned.

 

Example ... say you start at 350 points. If Mr. Multiform gets 3XP, he can now spend XP on his Multiform to up his Multiform to 353 points. He can't drop all 3 points on Multiform and go to 365. (The number of multiple forms doesn't matter.)

[Escafarc]

Re: Experience and multiform

 

I treat it like any other power with AP limits, I tend to increase the AP cap very slowly over the course of a campaign.

[Beazulbob]

Re: Experience and multiform

 

Ok - but say a MF character with 4 forms gets 5 xp. He spends all of it on his main form. Can he spend a 2 points on his MF power and treat it as xp/points for the other forms (say a 250 form, spend 2 points on MF, making it a 260 form)? I agree that the other forms should be capped at the level the primary form is. Assuming the above. 4 250 forms, 5 xp to the prime form. 1 pt goes to mf (so each of the MF becomes 255), with the remaining 4 points being spent on the primary form. If done this way, the forms will stay about equal with other PCs, though the primary form will slowly lag behind since he has to keep putting points into MF to allow the other forms to keep up with the other forms.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Experience and multiform

 

The added accounting required when spending XP is the reason I would never play a character with the power. It's a great way to give an accurate cost to a static snapshot of abilities but I would try very hard to find a different build method to spend XP on.

[psyber624]

Re: Experience and multiform

 

That is how it is RAW, and I think it makes for a decent balance. Yes Mr. Multiform has to keep spending points on his multiform to make them stronger, but thats the cost of the multiform power. He may grow somewhat slower, but he is still able to access much more than non-multiform heros, so he shouldnt get "extra" xp IMO.

 

There are exceptions to this rule tho. If his "multiform" is more of a progression of power state (classical example would be a Werewolf with human, Half were, full were, and full wolf forms for example) there is a case for keeping his form relative in power level to the rest of the characters.... but the guy with two totally different power sets? yeah, price of power dude.

[Martin2]

Re: Experience and multiform

 

When you get xp, how do you apply it? Do you get a single allotment that you must apply to forms singularly. Does it apply to your primary form and you can increase the MF forms (put 5 points into MF, add 5 to each form?), or a third option I hadn't thought of.

 

If you can only apply it to a single form, the character will quickly grow weak compared to PCs who are not dividing their xp.

 

Ideally, it seems that the xp spent on the prime form is static w/ the xp, with a limitation on how high you can build up your MF (not more then the prime form +xp, less the cost of MF), but I think that's my home rules, not the official one.

 

6th RAW says that only the form with multiform gets the experience (True form). That form then invests the exp into its character and the GM will allow you to invest a set rate into multiform.

 

One of my players has Multiform and I allow to invest 1 point in about 5/6 points into the multiform as that transfers 5 points into the other forms. This will keep the highest multiform at the same level as any other characters.

 

One way of tracking multiforms is to treat them as normal characters and note their starting points and then extra points added after the start point are counted as experience.

 

So if you have a a 200 point true form and a 100 point sneaky form and 400 point combat form. In my game the True form becomes 200 points + 5 exp (with 1 spent on multiform) and 100 points + 5 points exp and 400 points + 5 experience. This stops the 100 points becoming a 125 point multiform by accident of the player or the GM so getting "free Exp" as you can look at the multiform build and say every build should have "5 exp".

 

But just a thought for keeping track.

[taenia]

Re: Experience and multiform

 

The problem with the 5/6 approach that i see, let me know if my math is off, is that the PCs go up by 6 but the forms go up by 5, after 60 exp you have a 10 point difference in power level.

I think the 1/5 approach, in which you only spend 1 exp point per 5 earned on multiform to increase the base value, is more on track. If PCs gain 5 exp points, the base form spends 1 to raise his multiform by 1 character point, or 5 points for his forms then everyone goes up at the same rate. The other 4 may got to more forms, or other options but not to increase the form by more than the exp gained by the character.

 

I have played several characters who used multiform as a base and it definitely can make a difference depending on how the gm lets you allocate points. One thing to remember is some multiform builds have some similarities and these should be reflected, so if you decide your character in all your forms learns how to speak Russian, than those 5 points need to cover Russian on all your multiforms.

[psyber624]

Re: Experience and multiform

 

It will vary by GM of course, but if you apply the same amount of xp to each form then you are essentially giving that player character extra xp over and above all your other players which will allow him to become even more overpowered if not carefully regulated.

 

For instance: PC A is a regular Blaster, He gets 10 xp over the course of a campaign, he buys an extra DC on his EB, and maybe some other small special effect (like a detect).

 

PC B is a Multiform, and his multiforms are wildly different (this is of course an extreme case, but bear with me). He gets the same 10 points on all forms, so on one form he buys a bit more EB, on another some HK, on another he gets a new detect, on another he gets some higher defense, etc. etc. etc.

 

PC B is getting to "buy" way more stuff this way because he took a multiform. IMHO that really isnt balanced.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Experience and multiform

 

It will vary by GM of course, but if you apply the same amount of xp to each form then you are essentially giving that player character extra xp over and above all your other players which will allow him to become even more overpowered if not carefully regulated.

 

For instance: PC A is a regular Blaster, He gets 10 xp over the course of a campaign, he buys an extra DC on his EB, and maybe some other small special effect (like a detect).

 

PC B is a Multiform, and his multiforms are wildly different (this is of course an extreme case, but bear with me). He gets the same 10 points on all forms, so on one form he buys a bit more EB, on another some HK, on another he gets a new detect, on another he gets some higher defense, etc. etc. etc.

 

PC B is getting to "buy" way more stuff this way because he took a multiform. IMHO that really isnt balanced.

 

Except for not having access to all of it at once, of course.

[Martin2]

Re: Experience and multiform

 

It will vary by GM of course, but if you apply the same amount of xp to each form then you are essentially giving that player character extra xp over and above all your other players which will allow him to become even more overpowered if not carefully regulated.

 

For instance: PC A is a regular Blaster, He gets 10 xp over the course of a campaign, he buys an extra DC on his EB, and maybe some other small special effect (like a detect).

 

PC B is a Multiform, and his multiforms are wildly different (this is of course an extreme case, but bear with me). He gets the same 10 points on all forms, so on one form he buys a bit more EB, on another some HK, on another he gets a new detect, on another he gets some higher defense, etc. etc. etc.

 

PC B is getting to "buy" way more stuff this way because he took a multiform. IMHO that really isnt balanced.

 

But if you do not allow the player the EXP you are not following RAW. But as a GM you can do that. But if I was a player in your game I would want to know why.

 

That is the thing with Multiform you have to keep in mind the forms and decide if the player is planning to min max his forms or not. Every character in itself a different player character but only played a fraction of the time.

 

In some cases you may have Multiforms that are built on lower points than other PC's and be at a disadvantage and have skills and powers that are way below the active points of the rest of the players. Is that fair for the player who bought Multiform? Yes as this is how his character was built.

 

If you are woried about Multiform make it compulsory that you can only have one character as the same of the rest of the players and every other one is maximum 3/4 of the points and 3/4 of the active points so this will mean one is the main character and the other ones is a flavour character and not a game breaker for a min / maxer player.

[psyber624]

Re: Experience and multiform

 

My intention was that the multiform character spent XP RAW, i do allow him the xp, but he only gets it for his main form (the one with multiform), he then has to spend those points on his multiform to increase the level of multiform he has and then he can boost those forms. That is RAW, which is what i was saying I would allow. The issue that was presented was that if he does this, since he is having to spend xp on his multiform he has less xp to spend on other aspects of his character, which over time can make him "less powerful" than other heros (of course, I also feel this is a choice the player makes when spending his xp. He could instead choose to boost his attack powers or the like, but he chooses to make his multiforms stronger. Same thing would apply to someone that CHOSE to spend xp on a skill or non-combat power. If they continued to do so eventually they may be weaker than the rest of the players, but because they CHOSE to spend their points like that does not mean they are entitled to free points to compensate for this fact).

 

And yes, I get that multiforms don't get all their abilities at once, but then very few hero concepts CAN do everything they could possibly do all at one time. And unless the multiform is built with limitations that mean it takes some considerable amount of effort, then it takes all of a half phase to switch to, and access, any power he has across any of his multiforms. While that may not actually be "all at the same time" it is very close to it. Especially in the concept of combat power where he can flip to whatever form is best suited to the current needs of the combat, not to mention that it can also be used to circumvent many limitations on powers and such.

 

Multiform, IMHO, is most definitely a caution power (possibly even a stop power) because of the ease in which it is abused. Adding xp to each form all at once just seems to take an already incredibly powerful power, and make it even stronger. Especially considering the options it provides to the multiform player over and above those available to other players. And even if you limit the player to 1 xp per 5 spent on Multiform, ONLY his base form is weaker than the rest of the players, all of his multiforms are just as strong as everyone else. (and of course the base form is already "weaker" in this extent due to the fact that he spent points on buying his multiform.)

[Haerandir]

Re: Experience and multiform

 

The issue that was presented was that if he does this' date=' since he is having to spend xp on his multiform he has less xp to spend on other aspects of his character, which over time can make him "less powerful" than other heros... [/quote']

 

I hear this a lot, both on the boards and around the table. Your answer is the correct one. Multiform is not a character that earns XP. Multiform is a Power that is bought by a player in order to realize their character concept. If the player doesn't think the Power is valuable or worthwhile, why buy it? Sometimes you have to make hard choices when you're spending your xps. If you want to remain true to your character concept, you may 'need' to buy a Skill or a Perk or a few more meters of Flight instead of just upping your Lightning Blast by 1d6. The same logic applies to Multiform. In the end, it's a utility/flexibility power.

 

Honestly, this is the point at which the GM and player both need to ask themselves, "Is Multiform really the right Power for this character concept?" If the player feels like they 'have' to spend xp to keep the Multiform current with the Base form (either by buying matching Skills & Powers, or just keeping them at equivalent point totals and combat effectiveness), then they probably shouldn't be using Multiform at all. Multiform is intended for characters where there is a near-total re-write of the character between forms. If Bruce Banner learns to play the flute, the Hulk doesn't necessarily have to buy PS: Flautist. (HULK NO PLAY WOODWINDS! HULK SMASH PUNY FLUTE!) If Billy Batson takes up the saxophone, however, Captain Marvel will, too. The Hulk is well-served by Multiform, but there's a strong case that Captain Marvel is built by taking OIHID Limitations on all of his Powers.

[Ranxerox]

Re: Experience and multiform

 

It will vary by GM of course, but if you apply the same amount of xp to each form then you are essentially giving that player character extra xp over and above all your other players which will allow him to become even more overpowered if not carefully regulated.

 

For instance: PC A is a regular Blaster, He gets 10 xp over the course of a campaign, he buys an extra DC on his EB, and maybe some other small special effect (like a detect).

 

PC B is a Multiform, and his multiforms are wildly different (this is of course an extreme case, but bear with me). He gets the same 10 points on all forms, so on one form he buys a bit more EB, on another some HK, on another he gets a new detect, on another he gets some higher defense, etc. etc. etc.

 

PC B is getting to "buy" way more stuff this way because he took a multiform. IMHO that really isnt balanced.

 

How is this different from giving 10 XP to a character with a multipower? The guy with multipower can add 5 points to the multipower's base and then increase 5 powers within the multipower by 5 active points. So in effect the guy with the multipower is getting 25 points of utility out the 10 experience that was awarded.

[psyber624]

Re: Experience and multiform

 

Ranxerox, to an extent you are right, but that is true of any power construct. Someone with a limitation on a power will get more points of effect increasing that effect than someone who has a similar power without the limitation. That's how the game is worked. But if you give points to all the forms of a multiform, EACH of those forms can then get the same amount of effect from them on ANY power they spend it on. so a Multiform with 2 forms is getting twice the xp, a multiform with 4 forms is getting 4x as much.

 

That is in effect how this works if you do it RAW anyway. The BASE form spends points on his Multiform power, and that automatically allows him to spend 5x as many points in every one of his alternate forms. So he IS able to boost all of his forms at once. Which honestly to me is one of the reasons I would closely regulate Multiforms (Note that I also closely regulate Multipowers as well). The issue that was being presented was that since the BASE form is having to spend points on his Multiform for his forms to get stronger, he is getting comparatively "weaker" than the rest of the party, over the course of time. If you do 1 pt in 5 on the Multiform (which is the most I would ever personally allow as I would never allow a character to use Multiform to make a form that costs more than the Base form) then all of the Forms are actually staying just as powerful as the rest of the players, it is only the base form, in this case, that is getting weaker. But in my opinion thats the price of using multiform as a POWER. Making your multiforms stronger SHOULD cost you xp, since your making your multiform POWER stronger. Noone else gets extra xp just to keep their other powers on par with the rest of the team. And really, your base form is already "weaker" since you have to pay for the multiform in that form anyway.

 

At the end of the day of course its your game. If you prefer to let the multiform guy power up all his forms at once, and its okay with both the gm and the players, no harm in that. In reality we are talking about a difference of 1 point in 5... only if you are playing for a REALLY long time will that get into any serious balance issues.

[Martin2]

Re: Experience and multiform

 

Ranxerox, to an extent you are right, but that is true of any power construct. Someone with a limitation on a power will get more points of effect increasing that effect than someone who has a similar power without the limitation. That's how the game is worked. But if you give points to all the forms of a multiform, EACH of those forms can then get the same amount of effect from them on ANY power they spend it on. so a Multiform with 2 forms is getting twice the xp, a multiform with 4 forms is getting 4x as much.

 

That is in effect how this works if you do it RAW anyway. The BASE form spends points on his Multiform power, and that automatically allows him to spend 5x as many points in every one of his alternate forms. So he IS able to boost all of his forms at once. Which honestly to me is one of the reasons I would closely regulate Multiforms (Note that I also closely regulate Multipowers as well). The issue that was being presented was that since the BASE form is having to spend points on his Multiform for his forms to get stronger, he is getting comparatively "weaker" than the rest of the party, over the course of time. If you do 1 pt in 5 on the Multiform (which is the most I would ever personally allow as I would never allow a character to use Multiform to make a form that costs more than the Base form) then all of the Forms are actually staying just as powerful as the rest of the players, it is only the base form, in this case, that is getting weaker. But in my opinion thats the price of using multiform as a POWER. Making your multiforms stronger SHOULD cost you xp, since your making your multiform POWER stronger. Noone else gets extra xp just to keep their other powers on par with the rest of the team. And really, your base form is already "weaker" since you have to pay for the multiform in that form anyway.

 

At the end of the day of course its your game. If you prefer to let the multiform guy power up all his forms at once, and its okay with both the gm and the players, no harm in that. In reality we are talking about a difference of 1 point in 5... only if you are playing for a REALLY long time will that get into any serious balance issues.

 

Multiform is like a MP with each form a slot in the MP.

 

Yes there are ups and downs with Multiform. It would depend on the SFX of the Multiform.

 

In some cases a low powered Multiform is a disadvantage for cost efficiency. Multiform is expensive and if it is only used to purchase low total cost forms that are lower than the rest of the group. This is the sort of power that is to simulate a Druid transforming into small animals for lots of animal skills and senses. That can take a lot out of the True form who uses it for usefullness instead of combat efficiency.

 

Some players will want to produce all of their forms at the maximum level. In some cases to do this it will break active cost limits (not possible to get multiiform 400 points in a 60 active limit game). If a player does this and then produces 3 combat variants you will have to insist that the "weaker" trueform is the form it reverts to when stunned instead of a more useful combat one. Also you need to ballance the other forms or insist that not all are at the maximum for game balance.

 

With Hero lots of builds are game breaking if not monitored.

[Ranxerox]

Re: Experience and multiform

 

Ranxerox, to an extent you are right, but that is true of any power construct. Someone with a limitation on a power will get more points of effect increasing that effect than someone who has a similar power without the limitation. That's how the game is worked. But if you give points to all the forms of a multiform, EACH of those forms can then get the same amount of effect from them on ANY power they spend it on. so a Multiform with 2 forms is getting twice the xp, a multiform with 4 forms is getting 4x as much.

 

That is in effect how this works if you do it RAW anyway. The BASE form spends points on his Multiform power, and that automatically allows him to spend 5x as many points in every one of his alternate forms. So he IS able to boost all of his forms at once. Which honestly to me is one of the reasons I would closely regulate Multiforms (Note that I also closely regulate Multipowers as well). The issue that was being presented was that since the BASE form is having to spend points on his Multiform for his forms to get stronger, he is getting comparatively "weaker" than the rest of the party, over the course of time. If you do 1 pt in 5 on the Multiform (which is the most I would ever personally allow as I would never allow a character to use Multiform to make a form that costs more than the Base form) then all of the Forms are actually staying just as powerful as the rest of the players, it is only the base form, in this case, that is getting weaker. But in my opinion thats the price of using multiform as a POWER. Making your multiforms stronger SHOULD cost you xp, since your making your multiform POWER stronger. Noone else gets extra xp just to keep their other powers on par with the rest of the team. And really, your base form is already "weaker" since you have to pay for the multiform in that form anyway.

 

At the end of the day of course its your game. If you prefer to let the multiform guy power up all his forms at once, and its okay with both the gm and the players, no harm in that. In reality we are talking about a difference of 1 point in 5... only if you are playing for a REALLY long time will that get into any serious balance issues.

 

Yes, spending xp points on your multiform is versatile but so is spending points to up your multipower or your VPP. Indeed, the rule book (6E1 pg 286) mentions how similar multiform and multipower are in what they offer the player. So given other ways of spending xp that allow the character to magnify the utility of the points spent, I don't see how multiform is a game breaker.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Experience and multiform

 

Just to be clear. I have no issue with Multiform from a balance standpoint. It's just a PITA to actually use for a PC you want to spend experience on with regularity. You basically have to rebuild multiple whole character sheets as opposed to adjusting abilities (like frameworks) on a single character sheet.