Comparing STR for HtH vs. DCs

[gojira]

So I was thinking about DCs and noticed they seem pretty cheap for what they provide. They give +Hth damage (including Strength for things like Escape and Throw) and they don't cost Endurance.

 

STR, HtH Only (-1/4), No Endurance (+1/2) = (1+1/2)/(1+1/4) = 1.2. Multiply by 5 for the cost of each die of damage for STR, and that comes out to 6 points each, exactly.

 

Anything I'm missing there?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Comparing STR for HtH vs. DCs

 

Only Usable with Martial Maneuvers (-1/2) should do it.

[gojira]

Re: Comparing STR for HtH vs. DCs

 

Is that really worth a 1/2 limitation though? I wouldn't allow that, I think, if I were GM and just reading a random power a player had created. It only takes about 31 points to duplicate the basic set of maneuvers, I think, and all the of the martial maneuver are better than the basic ones, and frequently provide a couple of extra dice. That's worth another 12 points, lets say, for the extra STR just from the maneuver, and let's say on average +2 skill points HtH is worth about 16 points iirc. That's 28 points worth of stuff, at least, that buying those martial gets you.

 

Plus I don't count maneuvers as part of CV caps, so martial arts is a good way to boost yourself beyond the cap.

 

Not trying to be contrary, just trying to think my way through this. Is there anything I should do to limit DCs beyond the strict campaign limits? If the AP cap is 60 points, for example, should STR + DCs total less than 12 dice? Maybe limit to 10 dice or something, for that example.

 

Does anyone hold DCs and AP to the same number? In a 75 AP point campaign, do you normally cap DCs at 15 or some lessor value? And does that DC cap affect all attacks or just martial arts? Do you allow a huge 15 dice attack if you're willing to pay full End cost?

[massey]

Re: Comparing STR for HtH vs. DCs

 

Does not affect figured characteristics -1/2

[esampson]

Re: Comparing STR for HtH vs. DCs

 

Is that really worth a 1/2 limitation though?. . .

I think it's still worth a 1/2 limitation. It affects your ability to lift things which in turn can affect what you're able to use as a weapon (which can cost you such things as the ability to use a lamppost for extra reach or using large objects for bonuses). It can also affect how far you can throw things (and people) and your ability to use your strength to resist being knocked back or shoved around.

 

Remember that Strength has the same active cost and endurance cost as Blast even though it doesn't have the range of Blast and you don't see people talking about purchasing Blast - No Range as a substitute for Strength (although you use to see it as a way to represent a weapon before the Hand Attack power was created).

 

Basically, there's a lot more to strength than just doing damage.

 

. . .Plus I don't count maneuvers as part of CV caps, so martial arts is a good way to boost yourself beyond the cap. . .

That's probably a mistake, IMO. I think most GMs don't allow martial arts to exceed the cap.

 

. . .If the AP cap is 60 points, for example, should STR + DCs total less than 12 dice? Maybe limit to 10 dice or something, for that example. . .Does anyone hold DCs and AP to the same number? In a 75 AP point campaign, do you normally cap DCs at 15 or some lessor value? And does that DC cap affect all attacks or just martial arts? Do you allow a huge 15 dice attack if you're willing to pay full End cost?

I think most campaigns tend to have the same limit for martial arts as any other attack. I hesitate to say that in a 75 AP campaign you would have a 15 DC limit because I've seen campaigns where the AP limit is separate from the DC limit (so you can't have any power that has an active cost higher than, say, 90, but the damage cap of 14 DCs mean you can't have any attacks with an active cost higher than 70).

[Haerandir]

Re: Comparing STR for HtH vs. DCs

 

Does anyone hold DCs and AP to the same number? In a 75 AP point campaign, do you normally cap DCs at 15 or some lessor value? And does that DC cap affect all attacks or just martial arts? Do you allow a huge 15 dice attack if you're willing to pay full End cost?

 

I have seen GMs specify a cap for DCs and a separate cap for APs, yes. I've done it myself. I've seen it done where they're set equal (i.e. 12 DCs OR 60 APs) and I've seen it done where the AP cap is higher than the DC cap (i.e. 12 DCs OR 75 APs). The second way is good for encouraging interesting utility powers or oddball Advantages on attacks that often get skipped in favor of Moar Damage. Generally when I've seen a DC cap, it's applied to everything (Attack Powers, Str + HA, Martial Arts, the works).

[gojira]

Re: Comparing STR for HtH vs. DCs

 

That's probably a mistake' date=' IMO. I think most GMs don't allow martial arts to exceed the cap.[/quote']

 

This feels vaguely unsatisfying to me for some reason. For starters, it's more work, since players have to calculate their highest DC, OCV and DCV attack, and then build everything to that or less.

 

So if the campaign cap is 13 DCs, everyone has to take 4 DC from Haymaker, subtract that from 13, and no attack can exceed 9DCs. Do you actually play that way? Just curious, because I never have. Rather, I'd look at the 13 DCs, figure any player can have 17 DCs and just build my bad guys around that. Minions get moar smashed, villains should get pretty whomped by a 17 DC attack, but not so much at 12-13 DCs.

 

I'm also thinking that a hard cap of say 13 DCs and 65 APs makes it advantageous to have one 13 DC attack at full power, but also have a 10d6 attack at 1/2 Endurance too. (Do folks count Endurance Reduction in Active Points? I'd be inclined too, for just this reason, but I couldn't find in the rules if it said specifically.)

 

Same deal with CV. If you have martial dodge, you just subtract your +5 DCV from the campaign max. Which gives you a lower DCV the rest of the time. If you don't have Martial Dodge, you can actually be better than the Martial Artist at not being hit, most of the time. This also feels unsatisfying to me, at least.

[esampson]

Re: Comparing STR for HtH vs. DCs

 

. . .So if the campaign cap is 13 DCs' date=' everyone has to take 4 DC from Haymaker, subtract that from 13, and no attack can exceed 9DCs. . .[/quote']

Haymaker isn't a martial arts maneuver. Most people I know don't figure Haymaker into the DC limits. On the other hand they would figure Offensive Strike into the limits since it is far easier to use Offensive Strike than it is to use Haymaker. The same thing tends to happen with Move Throughs which will usually push the attack of a brick over the DC limit by a few points since it isn't likely to be something they will use a lot. On the other hand a character who is clearly designed for Move Throughs will usually be limited to the DC cap of the game.

 

I'm also thinking that a hard cap of say 13 DCs and 65 APs makes it advantageous to have one 13 DC attack at full power, but also have a 10d6 attack at 1/2 Endurance too. (Do folks count Endurance Reduction in Active Points? I'd be inclined too, for just this reason, but I couldn't find in the rules if it said specifically.)

Endurance Reduction absolutely is part of your active points. Active points is simply Base Cost * (1 + Advantages) and Reduced Endurance is an Advantage.

 

The bigger issue tends to be whether or not Reduced Endurance affects the DC of the attack. In 6e they do not affect it in the RAW because only advantages that "directly affect how the victim takes damage" affect the DCs (6e2 pg. 97) and despite the "Golden Rule" most GMs I know probably would not count it as increasing the DCs (but your mileage may always vary).

 

Same deal with CV. If you have martial dodge, you just subtract your +5 DCV from the campaign max. Which gives you a lower DCV the rest of the time. If you don't have Martial Dodge, you can actually be better than the Martial Artist at not being hit, most of the time. This also feels unsatisfying to me, at least.

That's assuming the campaign's DCV limit is the limit after a maneuver. Some GMs set that as the limit before a maneuver. Of course that can lead to its own problems since someone can take lots of levels with Dodge and that will break things.

 

In the end I'm not a huge fan of campaign maxima for exactly these reasons. I think a GM is much better off providing an 'average range' for the campaign and then just evaluating the characters on a character by character basis. This tends to lead to much more interesting concepts like 'Glass Cannons' (which are usually viewed as a bad thing but when well done can be fun to play), 'Scrappers', and 'Armor Plated Golf Balls'.

[gojira]

Re: Comparing STR for HtH vs. DCs

 

OK, if anyone else wants to chime in, please feel free to do so. You've all given me some things to think about. I'm not too far off, but I need to reconsider a few things too.

 

Final question though: If you're starting a new 6e Champions game, and you'll be using as-published enemies like Green Dragon, Armadillo, and Viper, where do you set your campaign limits? This is for a reasonably competent starting team.

 

Not a teen or "young bloods" team, where the characters are supposed to be just starting out and maybe somewhat inexperienced. But not a team of veterans either, any of which might be expected to curb stomp Green Dragon or Armadillo or other "basic" villains, as-published.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Comparing STR for HtH vs. DCs

 

OK, if anyone else wants to chime in, please feel free to do so. You've all given me some things to think about. I'm not too far off, but I need to reconsider a few things too.

 

Final question though: If you're starting a new 6e Champions game, and you'll be using as-published enemies like Green Dragon, Armadillo, and Viper, where do you set your campaign limits? This is for a reasonably competent starting team.

 

Not a teen or "young bloods" team, where the characters are supposed to be just starting out and maybe somewhat inexperienced. But not a team of veterans either, any of which might be expected to curb stomp Green Dragon or Armadillo or other "basic" villains, as-published.

 

I like a soft approach with 12DC/75AP as a good starting point. I think higher totals should be allowed if the character has an appropriate "Code" like vs. Killing. CvK effectively means that a character with average or higher damage potential must "Pull" their punches (with penalties to OCV) and/or use lower DC attacks vs. unfamiliar opponents for fear of maiming or killing them by accident. An bonus of this approach is that it allows Mind Controlled PC's or their Doppelgangers (both GM favorites) to appear far more powerful by a very simple means: lack of restraint. Being good/powerful enough to bring down an opponent is one thing. Being able to do so without killing the opponent is usually harder to do. (my 6e versions of the JLA were intended to be used as PC version of "a reasonably competent starting team").

[Cassandra]

Re: Comparing STR for HtH vs. DCs

 

HA work well in a Multipower or EC. You get to take the HTH Attack (-1/2) Limit that you can't take with STR No Figured Characteristics in Power Frameworks.

[gojira]

Re: Comparing STR for HtH vs. DCs

 

I like a soft approach with 12DC/75AP as a good starting point.

 

 

Thanks! What about OCV and DCV? Also, do you count the bonuses in maneuvers against those caps, like esampson?

 

HA work well in a Multipower or EC. You get to take the HTH Attack (-1/2) Limit that you can't take with STR No Figured Characteristics in Power Frameworks.

 

Thanks for point that out!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Comparing STR for HtH vs. DCs

 

Thanks! What about OCV and DCV? Also, do you count the bonuses in maneuvers against those caps, like esampson?

 

I've never actually quantified a "rule of x" but my versions of Batman and Superman show a some of the extremes I would allow for characters on the same team. 8r/16 def & 8ocv/9dcv w/3 CSL's vs. 20r/25 base def & 7ocv/dcv which can both be enhanced w/VPP.

[gojira]

Re: Comparing STR for HtH vs. DCs

 

Thanks HM! Other ideas still welcome...

[psyber624]

Re: Comparing STR for HtH vs. DCs

 

Ive wondered about this sort of thing as well. A truly competent martial artist can easily exceed campaign caps for DC's if your not careful. Between Strength, HA, +DC, Weapons (usually HA but still), CSL's that can improve DC, and Martial Maneuver's that can add up to 4 DC to an attack (for little to no penalty)

 

I have been thinking about using base AP caps, and then a Max DC cap as well (ie 60 AP with max 16 DC) This would mean that, for instance, a martial artist could get Str + DC + HA/Wep no higher than 12d6 normally, and then be capped at 16d6 if they wanted to use offensive strike, CSL into damage, or whatever. Bricks could run 60 STR, but then could only EVER add 4d6 from velocity with Move Through/Move By, etc. Thoughts?

[gojira]

Re: Comparing STR for HtH vs. DCs

 

CSL's that can improve DC' date=' [/quote']

 

That's a good point, I had forgotten about CSL converting to DCs. However, since everyone has the same skill caps, I assume it's fair for players. The GM should take into account though that a player might convert CSLs into a couple of DCs now and then when designing enemies.

 

 

I have been thinking about using base AP caps, and then a Max DC cap as well (ie 60 AP with max 16 DC) This would mean that, for instance, a martial artist could get Str + DC + HA/Wep no higher than 12d6 normally, and then be capped at 16d6 if they wanted to use offensive strike, CSL into damage, or whatever. Bricks could run 60 STR, but then could only EVER add 4d6 from velocity with Move Through/Move By, etc. Thoughts?

 

Move-Through is another good thought. I'm not sure if we need a separate cap for that or if it's ok to just cap movement at some value. Move-Through does damage to the attacker, so it might balance itself, although bricks and super high Def could be problematic.

 

I'm still favoring a separate cap for martial arts and strength/powers, with maybe a rider that powers above the DC cap can't take reduced endurance. I always felt that a good balancing mechanism was the high End cost of powers that are at the AP cap, and the recent editions de-emphasize that relationship somewhat.

 

Something like 12 DC cap (Strength + Weapon + DCs)

60 AP unrestricted.

75 AP, cannot take Reduced Endurance.

 

None of those take into account maneuvers, which is simpler on the player, methinks. And if Martial Artists get a boost, so do folks with Powers if they don't take Reduced Endurance. This seems at first blush that it might be more balancing, although I'm a bit concerned about how little End the martial artist will use.

[esampson]

Re: Comparing STR for HtH vs. DCs

 

What you want to try and be aware of is the damage from attacks that the person will be 'routinely' throwing. In the case of a character with an offensive strike this will often be utilizing the offensive strike but depending on how many levels the character has and their base OCV and DCV you probably wouldn't have to worry about them dumping all of their combat levels into DCs.

 

As an example, if a character has an OCV and DCV of 8 and 4 levels (combat or just HtH levels) I would probably not assume that they would be using the levels to add damage to their Offensive Strike. Given the OCV penalty and smaller DCV bonus (as opposed to Martial Strike) I would imagine most of the time those levels would be used for OCV and DCV. On the other hand if the character has 6 additional levels in Offensive Strike then I would definitely be considering those 4 levels being used to increase damage.

 

Similarly, a normal brick probably won't be doing Move Throughs or Haymakers all that much because of the inherent drawbacks on those attacks and you shouldn't worry about them as part of the cap while on the other hand with a brick who has purchased an extra 48m of running, 6 levels in Move Through, and an extra 30 PD which only applies against their own Move Through damage then yes, you definitely need to consider their Move Through damage.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Comparing STR for HtH vs. DCs

 

Another thing worth mentioning is deciding how to incorporate Pushing into any such "caps". Like Haymaker, it does have some built in drawbacks (enforcing them does require that END is tracked).