HKA's and STR in Champions Complete

[Allensh]

While building a character with claws I ran into something that took me back a bit.

 

In 5e and earlier, you could add +1d6 for every 15 STR but only to double the attack. In CC, that limit appears to be gone...which means a character with HKA 2d6 and a 75 STR can do 7d6 rather than just 4d6. That's fairly substantial

 

Allen

[Lord Liaden]

Re: HKA's and STR in Champions Complete

 

Indeed, that's been carried forward from the preceding 6E core rulebooks. For example, all the published villains with HKA in the Champions Villains trilogy are statted to more than double their base damage if they have the STR. IIRC weapons with the Real Weapon Limitation can only do double, though.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: HKA's and STR in Champions Complete

 

That limitation was removed in 6e, with a "toolkitting" sidebar discussing possible limits to the damage added. This takes us back to the rule in 1e, and was part of streamlining the "damage adding" rules. The true orphan mechanic, however, is the HKA being the only attack power augmented by a different ability (based on my interpretation of hand attack as "extra STR only to do damage", at least). That, too, carries from 6e (and all prior editions). My understanding is that CC was intended to restate the rules, not revise them, and both of these meet that mandate.

[psyber624]

Re: HKA's and STR in Champions Complete

 

The only problem I ever saw with that warranted the doubling rules was trying to buy small HKA's to allow you to switch between Normal and Killing damage for almost no point cost. That can easily be disallowed by the GM so I am glad that they removed that from the core rules.

 

If its being abused a GM can stop it, but now High Strength characters have a reason to wield weapons again.

[Kirby]

Re: HKA's and STR in Champions Complete

 

So you can give Grond daggers and he can kill Dr. Destroyer?

[esampson]

Re: HKA's and STR in Champions Complete

 

Only if they are super-special daggers. As Lord Liaden stated a regular dagger with the 'real weapon' limitation is limited to twice the base damage (or at GMs option it can do more than that but then takes full damage itself and probably breaks).

 

This is why the Hulk actually used weapons on and off during the Planet Hulk story arc but there's no point in him using mundane Earth weapons.

[psyber624]

Re: HKA's and STR in Champions Complete

 

So you can give Grond daggers and he can kill Dr. Destroyer?

 

That would definitely fall under the abuse category in my book.

[Greywind]

Re: HKA's and STR in Champions Complete

 

So you can give Grond daggers and he can kill Dr. Destroyer?

 

1) Would Grond know how to use daggers?

 

2) Would the daggers be able to withstand the abuse and stresses that Grond would inflict on them?

[Kirby]

Re: HKA's and STR in Champions Complete

 

Only if they are super-special daggers. As Lord Liaden stated a regular dagger with the 'real weapon' limitation is limited to twice the base damage (or at GMs option it can do more than that but then takes full damage itself and probably breaks).

 

This is why the Hulk actually used weapons on and off during the Planet Hulk story arc but there's no point in him using mundane Earth weapons.

That would definitely fall under the abuse category in my book.

1) Would Grond know how to use daggers?

 

2) Would the daggers be able to withstand the abuse and stresses that Grond would inflict on them?

If I buy a 1d6 HKA (OAF -1) "Bladed weapon" in 5E, Grond can only do 2d6 HKA with it. If I buy the same power with the same limitation in 6E, are y'all stating that Grond would be able to use his full STR? And as a follow-up, if he had four of those daggers, would that be a multiple power attack with the ability to kill Dr. Destroyer?

[Greywind]

Re: HKA's and STR in Champions Complete

 

I'm not stating anything. I asked 2 questions.

[Kirby]

Re: HKA's and STR in Champions Complete

 

I'm not stating anything. I asked 2 questions.

My apologies. The questions sounded rhetorical since the answers are obvious to me: 1) If you purchase a power, you don't have to buy a skill for it; you know how to use it (whether it's shooting lightning bolts from your hand or an OAF). 2) If OAF is the only Limitation, then it can't be broken just by use.

[Greywind]

Re: HKA's and STR in Champions Complete

 

We're talking Grond Can't see him buying daggers.

[Kirby]

Re: HKA's and STR in Champions Complete

 

We're talking Grond Can't see him buying daggers.

That's irrelevant to the issue and dodging the question. Take any 90 STR character and give him a 1d6HKA (OAF, -1). Does he get to add his full STR to that?

[Greywind]

Re: HKA's and STR in Champions Complete

 

Does it fit within the character's concept to have the toys?

 

Does it fit within the GM's world?

[esampson]

Re: HKA's and STR in Champions Complete

 

That's irrelevant to the issue and dodging the question. Take any 90 STR character and give him a 1d6HKA (OAF' date=' -1). Does he get to add his full STR to that?[/quote']

Yes. According to the RAW he gets to add his full strength to them, but before you get too freaked out I'll point out that according to the RAW pretty much any character would also be able to pick up the same 'dagger' and have a better than even chance of cutting a man-sized hole in the outside wall of your average home (exterior home wall is rated as 4 PD and 3 Body and I'm assuming most character can probably bring at least 3 extra DC to bear for a 2d6 HKA).

 

In short, a weapon that only has the OAF limitation on it is not a normal weapon. It's an adamantium knife or one forged from a super-sekrit high tech alloy or made by the dark elves of Anaheim or something equivalent.

 

If a knife is suppose to be a regular knife and not be able to cut man-sized holes in walls or be wielded by people like Grond then you give it the additional -1/4 limitation for 'real weapon'.

[Lucius]

Re: HKA's and STR in Champions Complete

 

Sometimes I think "Real Weapon" should be more than a -1/4

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary gets more than that for "Real Lucius Alexander"

[Kirby]

Re: HKA's and STR in Champions Complete

 

Yes. According to the RAW he gets to add his full strength to them, but before you get too freaked out I'll point out that according to the RAW pretty much any character would also be able to pick up the same 'dagger' and have a better than even chance of cutting a man-sized hole in the outside wall of your average home (exterior home wall is rated as 4 PD and 3 Body and I'm assuming most character can probably bring at least 3 extra DC to bear for a 2d6 HKA).

 

In short, a weapon that only has the OAF limitation on it is not a normal weapon. It's an adamantium knife or one forged from a super-sekrit high tech alloy or made by the dark elves of Anaheim or something equivalent.

 

If a knife is suppose to be a regular knife and not be able to cut man-sized holes in walls or be wielded by people like Grond then you give it the additional -1/4 limitation for 'real weapon'.

Thank you for actually answering the question.

 

Sounds like a detrimental rule that would lead to more stress than enjoyment. I used to make martial artists that had flaming swords, which allowed both energy and physical. Sounds like it might not be allowed in 6E or that somehow it would be under much scrutiny. A flaming sword is obviously not a real weapon, yet it wouldn't qualify as "admantium," either. Just another reason for me not to purchase 6E and enjoy picking up the 5E stuff I don't have.

[Ice9]

Re: HKA's and STR in Champions Complete

 

I don't know where you're getting that - flaming swords would be as allowable in 6E as any previous edition, and adding strength damage would be simpler, to boot.

Actually, I feel like "add as much as you have" is a more logical situation for martial artists and other skill-based damaging types. The idea that a character with say "Deadly Precision: +10 CSLs, Only to Add DCs, Only vs Targets with Anatomy" would need to use a greatsword instead of a stiletto to achieve full effect seems pretty bass-akwards to me.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: HKA's and STR in Champions Complete

 

That's irrelevant to the issue and dodging the question. Take any 90 STR character and give him a 1d6HKA (OAF' date=' -1). Does he get to add his full STR to that?[/quote']

 

Yes. Just like he could add his full 90 STR to a 3d6 OAF Baseball Bat.

 

To me, the issue is more about why only Killing Attacks can be enhanced by STR (Hand Attacks are just STR - only for damage). If I buy a Drain, I don't get to decide it has no range and is instead augmented by STR. I can't buy Eye Poke 6d6 Sight Flash, and decide it has no range but bumps up to 12d6 when I add my 30 STR.

 

Maybe the better answer is to eliminate HKA. Killing Attacks would be ranged by default. You make them No Range to create a sword, or claws, or whatever other HTH KA you want. You want more KA because you are strong? Buy more KA because you are strong. You want it to lock out your STR, or be drained with your STR? Put a limitation on it; make it a Unified Power. That's how it works with every other power!

 

[WHINE]But then my Sword damage is not enhanced by my STR[/whine]

 

Which sword? The one you pay 15 points for as a 2d6 HKA, OAF Sword, which has no STR minimum and no +1 OCV modifier? Absolutely nothing prevents gear - which we don't pay points for - being built as a XDC KA, +YDC only 1 added DC for 5 STR over STR Z. Complex build? Sure, but it's completely behind the scenes - you don't pay points for that gear. Stat it out in the back of the book and include a "total cost" and "cost per DC" in the weapons table. Done.

 

Sounds like a detrimental rule that would lead to more stress than enjoyment. I used to make martial artists that had flaming swords' date=' which allowed both energy and physical. Sounds like it might not be allowed in 6E or that somehow it would be under much scrutiny.[/quote']

 

I don't see why that would be the case. The total DC would certainly come under scrutiny, but that's about it. And having martial DC's add to killing damage at the same rate as every other type of damage simplifies damage adding quite a bit.

 

I don't know where you're getting that - flaming swords would be as allowable in 6E as any previous edition' date=' and adding strength damage would be simpler, to boot.[/quote']

 

beat me to it...

 

Actually' date=' I feel like "add as much as you have" is a more logical situation for martial artists and other skill-based damaging types. The idea that a character with say "Deadly Precision: +10 CSLs, Only to Add DCs, Only vs Targets with Anatomy" would need to use a greatsword instead of a stiletto to achieve full effect seems pretty bass-akwards to me.[/quote']

 

Yep. Way less complexity in damage adding - and that's a key reason for a lot of these changes. Now complex damage adding rules rife with caveats and exceptions are no longer around to lead to more stress than enjoyment. Just add up the DC's and carry on.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: HKA's and STR in Champions Complete

 

That's irrelevant to the issue and dodging the question. Take any 90 STR character and give him a 1d6HKA (OAF' date=' -1). Does he get to add his full STR to that?[/quote']

 

Yes. Just like he could add his full 90 STR to a 3d6 OAF Baseball Bat.

 

To me, the issue is more about why only Killing Attacks can be enhanced by STR (Hand Attacks are just STR - only for damage). If I buy a Drain, I don't get to decide it has no range and is instead augmented by STR. I can't buy Eye Poke 6d6 Sight Flash, and decide it has no range but bumps up to 12d6 when I add my 30 STR.

 

Maybe the better answer is to eliminate HKA. Killing Attacks would be ranged by default. You make them No Range to create a sword, or claws, or whatever other HTH KA you want. You want more KA because you are strong? Buy more KA because you are strong. You want it to lock out your STR, or be drained with your STR? Put a limitation on it; make it a Unified Power. That's how it works with every other power!

 

[WHINE]But then my Sword damage is not enhanced by my STR[/whine]

 

Which sword? The one you pay 15 points for as a 2d6 HKA, OAF Sword, which has no STR minimum and no +1 OCV modifier? Absolutely nothing prevents gear - which we don't pay points for - being built as a XDC KA, +YDC only 1 added DC for 5 STR over STR Z. Complex build? Sure, but it's completely behind the scenes - you don't pay points for that gear. Stat it out in the back of the book and include a "total cost" and "cost per DC" in the weapons table. Done.

 

Sounds like a detrimental rule that would lead to more stress than enjoyment. I used to make martial artists that had flaming swords' date=' which allowed both energy and physical. Sounds like it might not be allowed in 6E or that somehow it would be under much scrutiny.[/quote']

 

I don't see why that would be the case. The total DC would certainly come under scrutiny, but that's about it. And having martial DC's add to killing damage at the same rate as every other type of damage simplifies damage adding quite a bit.

 

I don't know where you're getting that - flaming swords would be as allowable in 6E as any previous edition' date=' and adding strength damage would be simpler, to boot.[/quote']

 

beat me to it...

 

Actually' date=' I feel like "add as much as you have" is a more logical situation for martial artists and other skill-based damaging types. The idea that a character with say "Deadly Precision: +10 CSLs, Only to Add DCs, Only vs Targets with Anatomy" would need to use a greatsword instead of a stiletto to achieve full effect seems pretty bass-akwards to me.[/quote']

 

Yep. Way less complexity in damage adding - and that's a key reason for a lot of these changes. Now complex damage adding rules rife with caveats and exceptions are no longer around to lead to more stress than enjoyment. Just add up the DC's and carry on.

[esampson]

Re: HKA's and STR in Champions Complete

 

Thank you for actually answering the question.

 

Sounds like a detrimental rule that would lead to more stress than enjoyment. I used to make martial artists that had flaming swords, which allowed both energy and physical. Sounds like it might not be allowed in 6E or that somehow it would be under much scrutiny. A flaming sword is obviously not a real weapon, yet it wouldn't qualify as "admantium," either. Just another reason for me not to purchase 6E and enjoy picking up the 5E stuff I don't have.

 

In the context of Champions all 'Real Weapon' means is that there's some additional limitations to it. It isn't as effective at carving through walls and you can't add more that the base DCs to the total DCs. There's some other minor things, like you're suppose to have to maintain it, but I would think that could be handwaved.

 

Real Weapon doesn't actually mean the weapon has to exist in the real world. It just means it behaves in a manner more consistent with reality. You could certainly apply Real Weapon to a flaming sword. It would then be limited in its maximum damage and in its ability to cut through walls.

[Kirby]

Re: HKA's and STR in Champions Complete

 

In the context of Champions all 'Real Weapon' means is that there's some additional limitations to it. It isn't as effective at carving through walls and you can't add more that the base DCs to the total DCs. There's some other minor things, like you're suppose to have to maintain it, but I would think that could be handwaved.

 

Real Weapon doesn't actually mean the weapon has to exist in the real world. It just means it behaves in a manner more consistent with reality. You could certainly apply Real Weapon to a flaming sword. It would then be limited in its maximum damage and in its ability to cut through walls.

Okay, that makes a bit more sense. Thank you. I think I can see where they were going with this.

[Rhino]

Re: HKA's and STR in Champions Complete

 

What do the rules of 6e say about how strength adds DCs to an advantaged KA?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: HKA's and STR in Champions Complete

 

What do the rules of 6e say about how strength adds DCs to an advantaged KA?

 

The adding damage rules start on 6e V2 p 99, and address advantaged attacks specifically at p 100. Basically, you add damage classes based on their AP cost based only on advantages that impact DC (ie that directly affect damage, an area discussed just prior to the adding damage rules), so STR is effectively pro rated. There are tables on p 101 for those preferring to avoid mathing that out, one for normal attacks and one for KA's, going from 1 to 20 DC's with +1/4 to +1 advantages. IIRC, the first APG (maybe the second) provided extended charts.

 

So, if I had a 2d6 HKA with +3/4 in advantages that affect DC's, that has an effective "DC cost" of 52 (30 x 1.75). If I add STR 20 to that, I have 72 "AP" available. 72/1.75 = 41, divided by 5 equals 8, (there are no fractional DC by RAW). That would be 2 1/2 DC (a 40 point killing attack/8 DC killing attack with no advantages). Alternatively, 72/5 = 14 DC's for this adbvantaged attack. The chart tells me 14 DC's for a KA with a +3/4 killing attack does 2 1/2d6.

 

The rules note this is best computed in advance so you're not dragging the speed of play. Since most characters will attack at full power, it's easy enough to compute the maximum. I suppose, if one expects to be END-hungry or have points routinely reduced (or added) in play, it would be simple enough to prepare a chart for this character specifically noting the breakpoints for each level of damage.

[Rhino]

Re: HKA's and STR in Champions Complete

 

Thank you very much. That is what I thought.