Usain Bolt vs. D'Artagnan - SPD and Movement in Heroic Campaigns

[mhd]

When I discovered HERO not too long ago (after letting the BBB sit in my shelf for ages), I really liked the concept of a SPD value. There's lots of freezing and waiting for an opportune moment in combat (as far as I can see it), and this handles it quite nicely. But one thing that always bothered my a bit was its effect on normal movement speed. In a superhero campaign this isn't as much an issue, as real speedsters operate on a different scale there, with plenty of NCM to have them going places. But within the usual limits of heroic campaigns (Running 10-20m, SPD 2-4), this quickly gets a bit annoying to me. I want to treat the difference between SPD 2 and 3 like "norms" vs. "trained fighters" - you basically learned not too waste as much time and handle yourself well during combat. SPD 4 is your swashbuckler with very fancy footwork, your ninja, or some almost preternaturally fast creatures. Everything beyond that is pretty rare...

 

But that means broken down to a normal level, every "soldier" has in effect Running 15. And gets a big mileage out of increasing his base movement value. A fast non-combat character would probably be best served by buying limited SPD (e.g. a Discworld-esque Wiz(z)ard or street thief).

 

So how do you handle this? I've read that a few on these forums don't use the speed table for heroic campaigns or have SPD 2 universally. For some this level of detail probably doesn't matter...

 

Right now, I'm hand-waving this mostly, but basically have 2 x FMove as the maximum for a turn. That means even a SPD 4 fighter would be able to do his four half moves before every combat, and as a lot of times people are just attacking without changing their location, this doesn't come up often and doesn't hinder the game much. A bit easier than just letting people buy SPD > 2 as "non-movement only" and having them pick which phase they can't move.

[bigbywolfe]

Some people use Turn based movement instead of Phase based. There may even be optional rules for that listed somewhere (APG maybe?). I think the easiest way to handle it if you want "realistic" running speeds is to cap Movement Powers as part of your campaign guidelines/ground rules. Make your caps based on per turn movement and encourage those who have higher than average SPD to not buy up their Running unless it is "in concept" for the character. I've actually sold a few points of running back in low power heroic level games when playing someone with high speed.

[TheRealDeal]

Turn based is probably the best way IMO. Just put a limit on your Run, Swim, or other move modes (not jump) that says Only Useable 1/Turn (-1). So the Base Run is 12m, you just convert that to Per Turn by assuming the base SPD 2 and thus you have a Base Run of 24m/Turn. Because of the -1 limit, each +2m of Turn based Run costs 1 point.

 

Then to determine how much Run they get per Phase, just divide this Turn based Run of say 24m in the Base case, by their SPD. This way if you are a SPD 3 you have a Run of 8 m per Phase, if only a SPD 2 you have a Run of 12m, while a SPD 4 has a Run of 6m per Phase. But this way all characters have the same comparable Turn Based Run value which they divide by their SPD to get their personal Phase Based Run value. This is sort of like what 6E does with figured characteristics. By uncoupling them, you have to buy them up independently. So here, by decoupling Run from SPD, making it Turn Based, you no longer get extra Run by just buying up your SPD, now, if you buy up your SPD, your Phase based Run will actually drop, unless you separately buy up Run to compensate, assuming you wanted it to keep pace.

[Lucius]

There IS a really really easy, book-legal way to deal with this.

 

When you buy SPD up to 3, buy Running DOWN to 8.

 

When you by SPD up to 4, buy Running DOWN to 6, and perhaps buy Swim down as well. Leaping is probably not as much of an issue.

 

 

When a player buys their SPD up, tell them they must buy their Running down if you feel that's necessary, or else remind them that they are also increasing their velocity.

Personally, on the Heroic level, I almost always buy Running down somewhat but not necessarily down so far as to not be able to outrun a normal. I think a hero SHOULD be able to outrun a normal, even if they shouldn't quite be moving at half again the speed.

 

I don't know why people keep overlooking the fact that you can buy movement Powers down as well as up, but I suppose it's not that obvious especially as you can't do it in most games. But it's something I strongly recommend.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

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[TheRealDeal]

There IS a really really easy, book-legal way to deal with this.

 

When you buy SPD up to 3, buy Running DOWN to 8.

 

When you by SPD up to 4, buy Running DOWN to 6, and perhaps buy Swim down as well. Leaping is probably not as much of an issue.

 

 

When a player buys their SPD up, tell them they must buy their Running down if you feel that's necessary, or else remind them that they are also increasing their velocity.

Personally, on the Heroic level, I almost always buy Running down somewhat but not necessarily down so far as to not be able to outrun a normal. I think a hero SHOULD be able to outrun a normal, even if they shouldn't quite be moving at half again the speed.

 

I don't know why people keep overlooking the fact that you can buy movement Powers down as well as up, but I suppose it's not that obvious especially as you can't do it in most games. But it's something I strongly recommend.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

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True, and the OP may not have realized that, good call. However, I was also pointing out that just as 6E did away with figured characteristics, and thus got rid of the sell back loop of infinite points, the same applies here with regard to SPD and Run (and other movements as well, but I just use Run as the example for all other move modes to follow).

 

Currently, in essence, Run is a type of figured statistic. You are able to move faster (in terms of MPH) as you increase SPD without touching Run. Just as say your END went up without touching it in 5E when you increased CON, so your movement rate goes up as you increase SPD without touching Run. Just as you pointed out, you have to sell back Run to keep your move rate at the same value when you increase SPD. The method I mentioned above, which I think was mentioned in some HERO book somewhere if I understood one of the posters above correctly, though I am not familiar with it, would in essence decouple Run from SPD like 6E has done for the figured characteristics.

 

Basically using the method above, your Run (and all other move modes) is Turn based, and is set at a default of double the current Run default (to account for the default SPD 2). So default Run in the Turn Based system is 24m. This does not change unless you buy it up explicitly. You then calculate your Phase Based movement by just taking this Run and dividing by your SPD. Thus as your SPD changes your Phase Based move rate changes automatically with it, always keeping your overall movement rate (the Turn based one) the same. This lets SPD represent how many actions you can take and react to, and lets your movement speed be determined separately by your Run value, and the two no longer mess with each other but are separate things.

 

In your example, using the default HERO, if you wanted to keep your move rate (Turn based) the same but went to SPD 4, you need to sell back 6m of Run which gets you back 6 points. Thus the 20 points you spent on getting +2 SPD really only costs you 14 points. If you sell back Swim also, that would be 4m of Swim sold back, getting you 2 more points, so your +2 SPD costs you in effect only 12 points.

 

In the alternate system I mention, this is not the case, and your +2 SPD costs you a full 20 points, and you end up with the same move rate (Turn based) as the default system. So the current system basically has made SPD cheaper by 40% because they have not decoupled Run and Swim from it. By using the method above, the OP can avoid the need to deal with the sell back thing, and in effect makes SPD cost more to buy as well, but this would be in the spirit of 6E after all, since they basically did this for the other figured stats.

[psyber624]

There IS a really really easy, book-legal way to deal with this.

 

When you buy SPD up to 3, buy Running DOWN to 8.

 

When you by SPD up to 4, buy Running DOWN to 6, and perhaps buy Swim down as well. Leaping is probably not as much of an issue.

 

 

When a player buys their SPD up, tell them they must buy their Running down if you feel that's necessary, or else remind them that they are also increasing their velocity.

Personally, on the Heroic level, I almost always buy Running down somewhat but not necessarily down so far as to not be able to outrun a normal. I think a hero SHOULD be able to outrun a normal, even if they shouldn't quite be moving at half again the speed.

 

I don't know why people keep overlooking the fact that you can buy movement Powers down as well as up, but I suppose it's not that obvious especially as you can't do it in most games. But it's something I strongly recommend.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

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There are other considerations to that method however. As movement is now turn based instead of phase based you can get into trouble quite easily. You cannot change your direction of travel or speed unless you have a phase to do so, therefore if someone throws up a barrier in front of your planned path during a segment in which you don't have a phase you will run into it and possibly take damage or suffer other consequences. This may be more "realistic" but is certainly not as "heroic". Of course this can be mediated if a GM allows by allowing you to abort to change your movement.

 

Another consideration is that while again it is more "realistic" realize that you can no longer move anywhere NEAR as far in a Phase as you could with normal movement. In standard movement if I start 6m away from my target on my phase (with normal running) I can make a half move and attack with my second action this phase. With Turn based movement my half move is only .5m per phase so if my opponent is 6m away from me I will have to move at full move velocity for 6 segments or at half move for a full turn in order to reach him and connect. This is a VERY bad thing for melee oriented characters and unless your GM does something to fix this (such as REcoupling SPD and MOVE during gameplay so that you can at least move MOVE/SPD/2 per phase as a half phase action) melee gets punished while ranged has less issues to deal with. So your SPD should probably be cheaper, but in the alternate system, its not. In the RAW system it is cheaper because you are selling back part of the benefit that a higher SPD would grant you, which is appropriate.

[TheRealDeal]

There IS a really really easy, book-legal way to deal with this.

 

When you buy SPD up to 3, buy Running DOWN to 8.

 

When you by SPD up to 4, buy Running DOWN to 6, and perhaps buy Swim down as well. Leaping is probably not as much of an issue.

 

 

When a player buys their SPD up, tell them they must buy their Running down if you feel that's necessary, or else remind them that they are also increasing their velocity.

Personally, on the Heroic level, I almost always buy Running down somewhat but not necessarily down so far as to not be able to outrun a normal. I think a hero SHOULD be able to outrun a normal, even if they shouldn't quite be moving at half again the speed.

 

I don't know why people keep overlooking the fact that you can buy movement Powers down as well as up, but I suppose it's not that obvious especially as you can't do it in most games. But it's something I strongly recommend.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

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I probably did not explain it well, as I am new to HERO more or less, but my intent was to keep Phase Based movement as per the normal rules, nothing changes mechanically, only how the movement is purchased and how the Phase Based movement is calculated changes.

 

So using this method, you need to create a new Stat we will call it RunT (for Run per Turn). You buy RunT (and all other move modes) at what amounts to half the cost in RAW (2m per 1 point), and you get a default amount of RunT = 24m (double the RAW 12m default).

 

Then, for actual play, you calculate your Phase Based Run, call it Run just like in RAW, by taking RunT/SPD (round as per normal HERO guidance to the nearest 1m). Thus this system plays exactly like RAW, it is Phase Based movement, all is the same, you simply determine your Phase Based movement differently, it is a calculated value now (RunT/SPD) rather than a directly purchased one. You directly purchase RunT instead in this new system.

 

This way, all characters can compare their move rates directly, comparing their RunT values. Their SPD makes no difference, it just determines how often they can react between moving within a Turn and thus gives them better maneuverability (especially for those with a turn mode), and they do not have to commit all their movement in large chunks at a time, but can be more responsive, moving in response to enemy moves assuming those enemies have a lower SPD.

 

This also makes the OPs complaint go away from a systematic point of view, since it does not require that he check on each character selling back Run, but rather it takes care of itself by default now. If you want to be faster in terms of move rate (RunT), and not just more maneuverable (SPD) but at the same move rate, you need to buy up your RunT directly. This allows you to create a very fast character who is very clunky in being able to react to changes in movement by buying up their RunT and keeping their SPD low. Or you can make a slower character who is much more maneuverable, by having a lower RunT and higher SPD. You can do this in the RAW system as well of course, but it requires selling back Run which is sort of the thing that 6E got rid of with no more figured characteristics, so it seems in keeping to get rid of it here also, if you are so inclined, but using this modified system.

 

Edit: This system does make it more expensive than RAW to have fast characters, so be aware of that. It should not be a big problem if you are in Heroic SPD values of 2-4, but higher SPD makes buying fast characters cost more points. For example, a RAW SPD 3/Run 12m costs only 10 points (for the +1 SPD). In the new system you spend 10 points for the +1 SPD and also spend 6 more points to buy your RunT from 24m to 36m so you get the same 12m Phase Based movement as the RAW case. Here is a table showing the cost under each system for a Run 12m (Phase Based) character so you can see how it gets more expensive:

 

SPD / Cost RAW / Cost New

2 / 0 / 0

3 / 10 / 16

4 / 20 / 32

5 / 30 / 48

6 / 40 / 64

...

9 / 70 / 112

...

12 / 100 / 160

 

So for a SPD 6 you pay 24 extra points in the new system to keep moving at 12m per Phase, or 72m per Turn. You are 3 times faster than the default, but it comes free (with the SPD) in RAW yet costs you 24 points in the New system.

 

Just FYI, something to consider. The same happened when 6E dumped figured stats, all of a sudden converting from 5E cost you a bit more in 6E (a lot more in some cases). So if you use this system, you may want to compensate by making SPD cost only 5 points per +1 SPD. This will still make the New system a tad more expensive, but it would only be 4 points extra at SPD 6, rather than 24 points extra.

[ayinde]

t Why not just do this........

lock move speed at 2

character top speed: base move times non combat move modifier (all action checks -1 per 10 equivalent active points of added speed used note a character can buy more move to of set this

you want to go faster without penalty bye more move

 

new powers (both powers related to cling)

float: hero can preform action on top layer of water will not sink

hover: hero can maintain location in mid air with out risk of falling

 

new move conditions

in water

ankle deep -3 to move

waist deep -6

shoulder deep -9

submerged -12

 

new skill swim: hero gains 4 move under water (everyman 8- skill)

 

this is just a fuff so any changes I am open to

 

 

[bigbywolfe]

I don't think the comparison to Figured Characteristics is at all accurate. Having a higher SPD let's you attack more people per turn but that doesn't mean Blast and SPD mimic the figured relationship of prior editions. Moving is jus another action you can take, just like attacking, or using a skill, or anything else and buying more SPD increases how often you can do any of those things. Before implementing an untested house rule I would highly suggest having campaign guidelines deal with this and only take further actions if it really is a problem despite that. Also, I'm pretty sure there is a Turn based Movement option in the APG you might want to look at before implementing your home brew stuff.

[bigbywolfe]

t Why not just do this........

lock move speed at 2

character top speed: base move times non combat move modifier (all action checks -1 per 10 equivalent active points of added speed used note a character can buy more move to of set this

you want to go faster without penalty bye more move

 

new powers (both powers related to cling)

float: hero can preform action on top layer of water will not sink

hover: hero can maintain location in mid air with out risk of falling

 

new move conditions

in water

ankle deep -3 to move

waist deep -6

shoulder deep -9

submerged -12

 

new skill swim: hero gains 4 move under water (everyman 8- skill)

 

this is just a fuff so any changes I am open to

 

This is a huge change to the system, not a "just do this" solution like everyone else should have thought of this particular idea. Not sure why the new powers are needed at all. Also not sure if anyone would want skill based movement. It's a fundamental change to how movement works that is much more drastic than turn based movement.

[TheRealDeal]

I don't think the comparison to Figured Characteristics is at all accurate. Having a higher SPD let's you attack more people per turn but that doesn't mean Blast and SPD mimic the figured relationship of prior editions. Moving is jus another action you can take, just like attacking, or using a skill, or anything else and buying more SPD increases how often you can do any of those things. Before implementing an untested house rule I would highly suggest having campaign guidelines deal with this and only take further actions if it really is a problem despite that. Also, I'm pretty sure there is a Turn based Movement option in the APG you might want to look at before implementing your home brew stuff.

I agree totally about being careful before using any new rule, but I think the OP was willing to try something new since he did not like the feel of increased SPD automatically increasing move rate as well. I wanted to point out the implications of greater point costs for using a Turn Based system over RAW, but use at your own risk:)

 

However, regarding the comparison of SPD with Blast, or skill checks, these are a bit different in that they do not stack with themselves usually, so making 3 blasts of 8d6 does not mean you make 1 blast of 24d6, a much more powerful situation. But Run and other movement does stack with itself. That is the issue the OP is encountering. So if I have a Blast 10d6 and SPD 2 and make my SPD 4, I can use my Blast twice as often, but the defender still gets full defense against each. So it is a far cry from staying at SPD 2 and having instead a Blast 20d6. However, Run does stack like this, so having a Run 12m as SPD 2 and then making SPD 4 does mean I am now twice as fast at running, rather than just being twice as fast at reacting and taking actions but still keeping a top speed the same.

 

The stacking of movement is what the OP is not liking, and so the Turn Based approach, while it has its own things to be aware of, does take care of this without requiring selling back of Run and such. I personally would just say keep RAW and just enforce a player to sell back Run and Swim if their SPD increase really is just a special effect of a ninja like reaction, able to act more often, but still not able to run faster than the 65 MPH speed limit on most freeways! This is cheaper overall for the players, and achieves the effect. But if you like a default ascetic that by default handles this without need for a sell back requirement, and are willing to accept a higher overall cost associated with it if you want to truly be faster moving (unless you take up a discount to SPD of 5 per point, which has its own implications), the Turn Based may be for you. Some GM out there may like that this system costs you more to move faster than RAW. It may have a better flavor actually for a lower power heroic setting where higher move rates should be out of most character's reach, and if they do have access to it, it will cost them more to get it. Superhero games would not want to use it as higher move rates are part of the genre in general and you do not want to be charging more points for it, and making SPD 5 points per +1 SPD is probably a bit too much of a discount that may in those settings throw balance out of whack.

[ayinde]

I don't think it is a drastic as you think

by locking move speed at 2 the speed everyone already has there would be no more move inflation in 6 sec you travel 12 meters or 6 meters moving with more personal safety in mind his noncombat move lets him move 24 meters in 6 sec this is the same as the game offers right now. yes its true his max speed now has a cap on it 24 meters in 6 sec but for 5 points you can double the cap.

the new powers I offered grant you extra movement abilities so speedsters don't need to buy flight only in contact with land (cheeper than run I might add)to create common speed tricks like run up walls (cling), run on water (float) as well as some other tricks found in other builds homing birds and helicopters can both hover but last time I checked most airplanes and birds cant so in your world most birds a discount on the cost of flight plus an extra cost brake for having wings?

 

now the terrain mods that I put out are just an idea I had and I am not sure I priced the negatives right but seeing as the change environment power has these options and more this is just my try at making a tangible use of that power in source I am sure you have see the fast character (or horde of normal speed thugs be slowed down or stopped by the hero who controls earth ripping the ground up making the are hard to travel in or water guy flooding the area for the same effect have you not ?

 

not saying my idea to solve this problem is the best just offering an idea but so I can learn and understand better please explain the flaws of my proposal in context to how you see move speed working and how you fix this issue.

 

oh and really swimming is a ability most of us can do with a little practice just like walking in my mind that sound more like a skill to me now being able to swim as fast as a dolphin is a power

[IndianaJoe3]

One of my suggestions for 6e was to purchase movement per Turn instead of per Phase. (Point costs would be adjusted to accomodate this.) Movement would be split evenly between the character's Phases, The big wart on this was the first Phase of combat, when the person with the lowest SPD could generally move the furthest. (This could be worked around, but it added complexity.)

[Lucius]

Currently, in essence, Run is a type of figured statistic. You are able to move faster (in terms of MPH) as you increase SPD without touching Run.

 

By that logic, not only every other Movement Power, but just about every Characteristic, Power, and Skill, is a "Figured Characteristic."€ As has already been pointed out.

 

So using this method, you need to create a new Stat we will call it RunT (for Run per Turn). You buy RunT (and all other move modes) at what amounts to half the cost in RAW (2m per 1 point), and you get a default amount of RunT = 24m (double the RAW 12m default).

 

And what do you know, here we are with another Figured Characteristic!

 

Note to IndianaJoe: That's probably why 6th ed doesn't use Turn based Move. Mr. Long was trying to move AWAY from Figured Characteristics.

 

Unless we abolish SPD as a Characteristic, we're not going to escape its implications. SPD determines the number of actions you can take in a Turn. Movement is an action you can take in a Turn.

 

Ayinde: I'm not ignoring you, I just don't have a clue what you're talking about.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

What is this? --> â <-- Looks like something the palindromedary coughed up

[IndianaJoe3]

Note to IndianaJoe: That's probably why 6th ed doesn't use Turn based Move. Mr. Long was trying to move AWAY from Figured Characteristics.

 

Unless we abolish SPD as a Characteristic, we're not going to escape its implications. SPD determines the number of actions you can take in a Turn. Movement is an action you can take in a Turn.

 

Perhaps, but it's not any more complicated than 9+STAT/5. I suspect that the weirdness in the first segment of combat (or the fixes required to deal with it) were the issues.

 

[TheRealDeal]

So using this method, you need to create a new Stat we will call it RunT (for Run per Turn). You buy RunT (and all other move modes) at what amounts to half the cost in RAW (2m per 1 point), and you get a default amount of RunT = 24m (double the RAW 12m default).

 

And what do you know, here we are with another Figured Characteristic!

 

Yes and no. It is figured, though not RunT but rather how you determine your Phase Based move (which is what you meant, I know), since it is RunT/SPD, the figured part. However, no, in that this is one "figured" stat you cannot buy up or sell back directly like you can with all the others. It is more like Skill = 9 + CHAR/5, which you cannot directly sell back or buy up, you instead buy it up with another thing, Skill Levels. So it is more like a calculated result, rather than a figured characteristic. It is really the ability to sell back for points figured characteristics that marks them as "problems" in my mind. Run and Swim work like this in RAW, you can sell them back when you buy higher SPD if you do not want your PC to be able to run as fast as a car moves.

[JasonPacker]

Just for reference, it's APG 160-1 where this issue is discussed, under Segmented Movement and specifically Decoupling Movement and Speed.

[JasonPacker]

There IS a really really easy, book-legal way to deal with this.

 

When you buy SPD up to 3, buy Running DOWN to 8.

 

When you by SPD up to 4, buy Running DOWN to 6, and perhaps buy Swim down as well. Leaping is probably not as much of an issue.

 

 

When a player buys their SPD up, tell them they must buy their Running down if you feel that's necessary, or else remind them that they are also increasing their velocity.

Personally, on the Heroic level, I almost always buy Running down somewhat but not necessarily down so far as to not be able to outrun a normal. I think a hero SHOULD be able to outrun a normal, even if they shouldn't quite be moving at half again the speed.

 

I don't know why people keep overlooking the fact that you can buy movement Powers down as well as up, but I suppose it's not that obvious especially as you can't do it in most games. But it's something I strongly recommend.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

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I really like this, and I'm not sure why I never thought about it. I did some figuring on the actual costs to maintain 24 meters of movement per turn, using the RAW rules, to provide a counterpoint to the suggestion from TheRealDeal. This makes SPD cheaper in the long run, if you keep your movement the same, but it does get more expensive as you go increase SPD to the logical max at 12. Apologies if the software trashes my table...

 

SPD		Running			Net Cost		Cost / Point of SPD > 2
1		24			2			NA
2		12			0			NA
3		8			6			6
4		6			14			7
5		5			23			7.67
6		4			32			8
7		4			42			8.4
8		3			51			8.5
9		3			61			8.71
10		3			71			8.88
11		3			81			9
12		2			90			9

[psyber624]

Maybe I am just not getting something yall are discussing here but it seems like people are going through massive hoops and suggesting tons of house rules and entire house systems for something that isn't broken. I don't get the aversion to selling back some of the free Run/Swim if you want to keep your per turn movement the same. Yes, it makes that extra SPD slightly cheaper (slightly) but then you ARE making it less valuable (since you no longer get to move that extra amount for free anyway). The aversion to selling back stats from 5E came from the fact that you could basically get certain stats at a HUGE discount by selling back their granted figured characteristics that could make the primaries almost free. Since buying up your SPD doesn't in ANY way increase your Run/Swim (it just lets you use it more often) you don't have the issue that was present before.

 

What strikes me as funny is that this is the opposite of the NORMAL SPD vs Movement argument, which is about SPD being a cheap way to INCREASE your movement after a certain point.

[JasonPacker]

Maybe I am just not getting something yall are discussing here but it seems like people are going through massive hoops and suggesting tons of house rules and entire house systems for something that isn't broken. I don't get the aversion to selling back some of the free Run/Swim if you want to keep your per turn movement the same. Yes, it makes that extra SPD slightly cheaper (slightly) but then you ARE making it less valuable (since you no longer get to move that extra amount for free anyway). The aversion to selling back stats from 5E came from the fact that you could basically get certain stats at a HUGE discount by selling back their granted figured characteristics that could make the primaries almost free. Since buying up your SPD doesn't in ANY way increase your Run/Swim (it just lets you use it more often) you don't have the issue that was present before.

 

What strikes me as funny is that this is the opposite of the NORMAL SPD vs Movement argument, which is about SPD being a cheap way to INCREASE your movement after a certain point.

Oh, I suspect it all comes down to folks wanting a "best way" to handle the seeming paradox of your move/turn increasing with SPD. A lot of the problems go away if you start using segmented movement, but it does introduce a good bit of extra overhead.

[TheRealDeal]

Maybe I am just not getting something yall are discussing here but it seems like people are going through massive hoops and suggesting tons of house rules and entire house systems for something that isn't broken. I don't get the aversion to selling back some of the free Run/Swim if you want to keep your per turn movement the same. Yes, it makes that extra SPD slightly cheaper (slightly) but then you ARE making it less valuable (since you no longer get to move that extra amount for free anyway). The aversion to selling back stats from 5E came from the fact that you could basically get certain stats at a HUGE discount by selling back their granted figured characteristics that could make the primaries almost free. Since buying up your SPD doesn't in ANY way increase your Run/Swim (it just lets you use it more often) you don't have the issue that was present before.

 

What strikes me as funny is that this is the opposite of the NORMAL SPD vs Movement argument, which is about SPD being a cheap way to INCREASE your movement after a certain point.

I do not think it has to be broken for folks to make a house rule, if they think that will make their experience of the game better. Most all of the need for house rules in HERO by now (6E) are for this reason, personal flavor. I am pretty sure there are only a handful of house rules that deal with things those players think would count as broken for their group, so most of what is discussed on the forums in this regard is for personal feel and flavor, offering suggestions as to ways to make your experience perhaps a little better. Some may not like certain ideas, in fact I would think most readers would not like many of the ideas posted, but if a few find them useful and improve their experience, it is worth it, IMO.

 

This particular discussion seems to me to be about a sort of purist approach to characteristics. Trying to keep them independent of each other as much as is possible. So since SPD and Run are not "purist" in this sense, because they interact with each other, well, at least Run interacts with SPD, a purist might want to see that decoupled, even if it is just as easy to sell back Run to achieve the same end. It is more a feel issue than a "real" issue. Does it add its own different complexity? Yes, but a purist may be very happy with that, if it makes his level of satisfaction higher. More of an aesthetic thing.

 

I have heard similar talk of splitting DEX into 2 new stats, each just 1 point, one determines your DEX for initiative and the other more or less determines your DEX for skills (this is an oversimplification, but serves for my brief example). So this is just another issue of some people who want more granularity or more separation of characteristics from each other for their own personal reasons.

 

It seems like it was a big step for 6E to ditch figured chars. I think they got a lot of heat for it from what I read from old edition lovers. This may mean some of the ideas discussed here as house rules may turn up as core in 7E or later. Depending on how much it messes with the HERO system and how it is perceived by those who love it.

[Lucius]

Doesn't help the "Purist" at all.

 

Either you're "figuring" your Move per Turn by multiplying by SPD, or you're "figuring" your Move per Phase by dividing by SPD. If you have a problem with this, the only answer is to eliminate SPD as a characteristic and use some other way to determine actions per Turn.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

 

SPD determines your number of actions per Turn. Movement is an action you can take.

 

I suppose you can redefine Movement as not being an action...

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I've had a palindromedary in my tagline before and I'll do it again

[TheRealDeal]

Doesn't help the "Purist" at all.

 

Either you're "figuring" your Move per Turn by multiplying by SPD, or you're "figuring" your Move per Phase by dividing by SPD. If you have a problem with this, the only answer is to eliminate SPD as a characteristic and use some other way to determine actions per Turn.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

 

SPD determines your number of actions per Turn. Movement is an action you can take.

 

I suppose you can redefine Movement as not being an action...

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I've had a palindromedary in my tagline before and I'll do it again

If you use RAW, that is how your do it, multiply Run x SPD to get Turn Based, or just use Run which is already Phase Based. I was hoping to elucidate on the idea of breaking Run from SPD by creating a new characteristic, I called it RunT, which is what you would buy up with points, and represents how many meters you can move in 1 Turn. Just as in RAW, Run has a default of 12m, but is defined as how far you can move when you use a Phase to move, so also the new RunT would have a default, 24m in this case, which is defined as how far you can move in a Turn if all you did was move.

 

But, because it is much easier to resolve movement within each Phase, since that is where each character determines what action choices they make and many effects resolve within the Phase structure, you then take this RunT and divide it by SPD to get a value for how far you can move in each Phase. It seems to be doing this, whatever other baggage may come with it regarding point costs and such as discussed in the posts above, does let you keep SPD as written and also now have a Turn Based approach for buying movement, still allowing you to then break this Turn based movement back up into Phase based chunks since this is how HERO works best, IMO, when you resolve actions in a Phase, and not try to create some other means to resolve them.

 

When someone asks you, "How fast can you run?", you answer them with Turn based movement in effect, which translates into a MPH rating. You would not answer them with a Run value in meters as current HERO has Run being purchased. Since this requires you to also multiply by SPD to get the true speed you run at. So because it seems more natural to express Run in terms of a fixed value on a per time basis like is done in pretty much all expressions of speed in the real world, this is why Turn based Run is a bit more intuitive and natural to use and to have this be the characteristic to buy. Phase based Run is indeed needed to make action resolution work best, since HERO measures it in Phases, not Turns, but you can easily convert from Turn based Run (RunT) to Phase based Run by just dividing by SPD, much like skill roll = 9 + CHAR/5.

 

As discussed, you can achieve this by just requiring players to sell off Run when they buy up SPD, but it is not quite as "pleasing" to the purist, at least IMO, as it is a bit clunky to have to sell back points, even if it works just fine. If you wanted to build a character that is weaker than the default normal with 0 points, then selling back points becomes a more understandable thing to do. But if this is not a result of being weaker (or in this case slower) than the typical normal, but instead is a result of purchased SPD also giving you at the same time more Run that you did not necessarily want to have for your character but comes automatically with any SPD you buy, then it becomes clunky to have to sell it back. That is the only reason to bother with this new system of RunT, since it does mess with the point cost structure a bit, and may lead you to discount SPD from 10/point to 5/point, which may have other unintended consequences. If you keep SPD the same, you end up having faster movement cost more in the new system, which may be OK for you, but it is something you should be aware of.

[Lucius]

 

 

If you use RAW, that is how your do it, multiply Run x SPD to get Turn Based, or just use Run which is already Phase Based. I was hoping to elucidate on the idea of breaking Run from SPD by creating a new characteristic, I called it RunT,

 

Stop.

 

First, I'm not sure you are clear on the fact that Runing is a Power under the rules.

 

But I'll assume you know that, and you want to make a Characteristic and call it RunT.

 

which is what you would buy up with points, and represents how many meters you can move in 1 Turn.

 

How many meters I can MOVE in one Turn, or how many meters I can RUN in one turn?

 

If I buy a lot of Flight, would I then have to buy a lot of RunT to be able to use all my Flight?

 

Just as in RAW' date=' Run has a default of 12m, but is defined as how far you can move when you use a Phase to move, [/quote']

 

No, it's defined as how far I can RUN in one phase. It has no bearing on Swimming, Flight, Teleportation, etc.

 

so also the new RunT would have a default, 24m in this case, which is defined as how far you can move in a Turn if all you did was move.

 

But, because it is much easier to resolve movement within each Phase, since that is where each character determines what action choices they make and many effects resolve within the Phase structure,

 

Yes, it is easier. That's because SPD determines how many actions you may take in a Turn, and Movement is an action you can take in a Turn.

 

you then take this RunT and divide it by SPD to get a value for how far you can move in each Phase. It seems to be doing this, whatever other baggage may come with it regarding point costs and such as discussed in the posts above, does let you keep SPD as written and also now have a Turn Based approach for buying movement, still allowing you to then break this Turn based movement back up into Phase based chunks since this is how HERO works best, IMO, when you resolve actions in a Phase, and not try to create some other means to resolve them.

 

I'm glad we agree. But if we agree that we shouldn't “try to create some other means to resolve†movement, what is it you're trying to accomplish?

 

When someone asks you, "How fast can you run?", you answer them with Turn based movement in effect, which translates into a MPH rating.

 

The answer you can give them under RAW. But how often, when someone asks that question, do they mean, how far can you move in an action phase?

 

You would not answer them with a Run value in meters as current HERO has Run being purchased. Since this requires you to also multiply by SPD to get the true speed you run at. So because it seems more natural to express Run in terms of a fixed value on a per time basis like is done in pretty much all expressions of speed in the real world, this is why Turn based Run is a bit more intuitive and natural to use and to have this be the characteristic to buy.

 

So, why do you want to make it a Characteristic as opposed to a Power? Do you want to make all other Movement Powers into Characteristics?

 

Phase based Run is indeed needed to make action resolution work best, since HERO measures it in Phases, not Turns, but you can easily convert from Turn based Run (RunT) to Phase based Run by just dividing by SPD, much like skill roll = 9 + CHAR/5.

 

True enough. But if that's what you need – and it is – why not start with that, as RAW does?

 

I'm not saying it's a difficult hoop to jump through, I'm saying it's a completely unneccessary hoop.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks the best move might be to just let those who are inclined to try this find out the hard way

 

[TheRealDeal]

I was continuing a response from another post so it was not clear, but basically I was just talking about Run so I did not need to keep repeating (and Swim, Fly, Teleport, Tunneling, Swinging), but the idea applies to all forms of movement.

 

You do not need to make this a characteristic if you do not want to, keep it as a power, my point was just to make the characteristic or power as the case may be into a definition of movement per Turn not movement per Phase. So if you buy Flight, you buy how many meters you can fly in a Turn. Same with all the others. This means the cost of all these powers would be halved if you use this approach, so FlightT (which just like RunT means Flight in meters per Turn) would cost 1 point per 2m.

 

Then you use these characteristics or powers, which are now all on a per Turn basis, and divide them each by SPD to get how far you can Run, Swim, Fly, etc. per Phase.

 

What this system would be trying to accomplish is to decouple SPD and movement rates. Obviously SPD and movement is always coupled, because movement is an action, BUT, SPD and movement RATE can be decoupled this way. You still take a 1/2 Phase action on your Phase to move, but to get the answer to "How far can I move in a Phase?" you take your Turn based movement mode/power and divide it by SPD. Thus, movement rate (in meters per second, lets say) is no longer determined by SPD, but only by the characteristic or power itself that allows you to move that way in the first place. Your SPD only tells you how many smaller chunks you can break that single Turn based move into, and how big each chunk can be, but you still cannot move faster overall (on a per Turn basis) than your Run, Swim, Fly, etc. Characteristic or Power which you would have bought for X points.

 

Thus is 2 characters both buy Flight 24m and pay 12 points for it (using the new system cost which is half the RAW cost), and Character A has a SPD of 3 while Character B has a SPD of 6, they both are just as fast as the other, neither can out fly the other in terms of a straight line dash type race. In this case, they both fly at a speed of 24m/12 seconds per Turn = 2 m/s.

 

The SPD 6 guy, however, has an advantage over the SPD 3 guy. The higher SPD guy can change direction and react to other characters moves or actions more often and with greater granularity. He has twice the SPD and thus twice the maneuverability of the SPD 3 guy, even if both have the same top speed.

 

In this case, the Phase based Fly would be: 24m/3=8m for SPD 3 guy and 24m/6=4m for the SPD 6 guy. So the higher SPD can break his movement into more (smaller) chunks that still add up the same total top speed (turn based value) which is what they purchased in FlightT. This gives the SPD 6 guy more maneuverability and allows more mid-Turn corrections to movement in reaction to other character actions.

 

So this system allows you to compare the top speed of any character for any move power at a single glance and you pay points for how fast you can move in that mode. Your SPD would not increase your ability to move faster, just allow you to be more maneuverable when you do move. Currently, in RAW, you are not paying for top speed, you are paying for the speed per action you can use (Phase based movement). This means, your SPD will change your top speed. All the new system does is approach it from a Turn based perspective, and say that points should be proportional to the absolute output of the power you bought, in this case, movement rate, and so by making move powers Turn based you get this. Keeping them RAW as Action (or Phase) based, means your points spend on the move power is not proportional to how fast you can move, but SPD factors into this in a way you have to calculate to see.

 

I am not saying it is better, it is just an alternate way that may appeal to the OP.

 

As a side note, this issue would come up with any power that stacks with itself in the way movement does. Most do not stack with themselves in this way. Damage powers do have this issue as the damage they deal does stack, however, the target gets to apply defenses on each attack, and movement does not run (pun intended) into this issue of a defense that reduces it in general. So this is why high SPD attackers need to balance their DCs against lower SPD ones to some degree, but movement is much more glaring in this respect since movement usually applies in full each time it is used and continues to stack with itself in that you add the meters you move now to those you already moved previously to see where you end up, without any reduction in between.