Breaking grabs and to-hit roll

[Ninja-Bear]

Hello all,

Been thinking again about martial art mechanics and I think that it is odd that all the maneuvers need a to-hit roll except martial escape. Let me say that I understand that it is consistent with breaking entangles, but entangles are typically static whereas someone grabbing you is dynamic. I'm thinking of requiring a roll to use the martial escape maneuver. I would definitely allow casual strength rolls as per the rules. The roll represents the user to be able to bear his strength at the appropriate point on the attacker. Plus I know some people feel that it is odd that crush needs a to-hit roll and equate it as being similar to breaking a grab.

[psyber624]

Nothing wrong with house ruling that sort of thing, but don't forget to figure out the penalties, the grabber will be at 1/2 DCV and the Grabbee will be at -3 OCV to hit him. If CV's tend to be high in your campaign (Over 10 on average) you may find that the attack roll is frequently nearly a gimme and therefore more of a waste of time than anything. Of course conversely at really low CV averages escaping from a grab may be really hard to do! (if avg CV is 4, the grabber is only at -2 for his DCV, but the Grabbee is still -3)

[Ninja-Bear]

Thanks for the response psyber624. About the grabbers DCV, I was going to make that another thread but since it relates here, let me tell you my other house rule. I'm disposing og the the grabber having a the automatic additional -2 to grab and if successful, the 1/2 DCV modifier. (choke hold will have a -2 DCV as it should have according to Ninja Hero errata). The grabber will only suffer any negative DCV the maneuver incurs. And in light of what you pointed it out above, perhaps the grabbee -3 OCV to-hit penalty might be suspended too.

[Killer Shrike]

It's fine to house rule things if you feel the need to, but in my experience it generally it works best if there is a specific observed _problem_ that has led to an un-fun or unliked outcome once or more during actual play. House rules just to patch perceived rules inconsistencies in a vacuum don't always work out so well.

 

Is there a specific case or cases where the lack of a to-hit roll to escape a grab has caused a problem in your games?

[Ninja-Bear]

It's fine to house rule things if you feel the need to, but in my experience it generally it works best if there is a specific observed _problem_ that has led to an un-fun or unliked outcome once or more during actual play. House rules just to patch perceived rules inconsistencies in a vacuum don't always work out so well.

 

Is there a specific case or cases where the lack of a to-hit roll to escape a grab has caused a problem in your games?

Good point killer shrike. And yes its the lack of grabbing in games. Really with the penalties invovled why would a player grab unless absolutly nessecery? And as the original post, the house rule was to make it consistant with the other rules. Again the group questioned why must you make a new to hit roll with a crush maneuver but not when breaking a grab? I do see the point of no rolling to hit on entangles or if using causal strength to break a grab.

[Hyper-Man]

I think the attack roll requirement for a crushing attack assumes that the grabbed character is actively struggling. That means they are spending END in the effort. It's arguable that they might stop doing so if they are low on END. In that case the crush attempt probably wouldn't need a new attack roll.

[Killer Shrike]

It's fine to house rule things if you feel the need to, but in my experience it generally it works best if there is a specific observed _problem_ that has led to an un-fun or unliked outcome once or more during actual play. House rules just to patch perceived rules inconsistencies in a vacuum don't always work out so well.

 

Is there a specific case or cases where the lack of a to-hit roll to escape a grab has caused a problem in your games?

It seems like there is a very tenuous pseudo-logical thought process behind this that a Crush must follow a grab, and an escape also logically occurs after a grab, and therefore they are basically the same kind of thing and should be consistent with each other.

 

But this seems like apples and orangatans to me.

 

 

In the case of a character executing the Crush maneuver they are the ATTACKER and are trying to exert force on the DEFENDER to cause harm.

 

In the case of a character executing an Escape maneuver they are the DEFENDER and are simply trying to break the hold, wiggle free, slip loose, etc. They are already grabbed / held. They are not "attacking".

 

As far as "why would a player grab unless absolutely necessary"...we must be playing this game differently because in my experience grabs are exceptionally useful. Granted, I've used the "Grab and...Block | Control | Redirect | Shove" combat rules (which now are in the APG I on page 167, but which were previously in ninja hero) for a long time now, but still.

[Ninja-Bear]

I think the attack roll requirement for a crushing attack assumes that the grabbed character is actively struggling. That means they are spending END in the effort. It's arguable that they might stop doing so if they are low on END. In that case the crush attempt probably wouldn't need a new attack roll.

Right and if you ever tried to break out of a hold, the grabber is actively struggling to keep you from escaping. For both those instances, I would allow causal stength to be used.

[psyber624]

There are MANY benefits of grabbing that may not be immediately obvious or used by your group. That is part of the equation here. Grab is a tactical move available to ANYONE and offers a lot of benefits in a team based fight situation (which HERO is really designed for).

 

1. Its a free maneuver, anyone can do it. Of course the higher your strength the better.

2. A grabbed character cannot use most handheld Foci, allowing a Strong character to easily disable someone who relies on those.

3. A grabbed character is at 1/2 DCV against ALL attackers. Someone that is grabbed is then very easy for other party members to hit INCLUDING the grabbing character. Even tho the attacker may have to make an attack roll to do things like Crush he has his full OCV vs the Grabbed characters 1/2 DCV so unless landing the grab was a lucky shot chances are he will almost NEVER miss (and many GM's I know of don't even bother to roll once the odds get past a certain point to speed up gameplay unless its dramatically appropriate).

4. A grabbed character is at 1/2 OCV against all others (-3 vs the grabber). That means that for the most part he is effectively negated unless he has non-OCV based attacks (or something else is going on). In most games 1/2'ing OCV or DCV is a HUGE advantage/disadvantage that really changes the likely outcome of an attack.

5. You can grab things other than hands. Grabbing feet can prevent someone without exotic movement abilities from fleeing.

6. I don't feel like calculating the odds but in most cases if you are at least 5 points stronger it is actually VERY hard for someone weaker to break out of a grab (By RAW they have to roll MORE NDB against you in a Str vs Str roll. With 5 more strength they have to basically get 2 more 6's/fewer 1's to break out, and that is really hard on its own. Adding in an attack roll, especially with the normal modifiers, would make escape even less likely in many cases.

 

Basically a Grab is a Maneuver that is VERY similar and offers many of the same benefits as an Entangle, but it is a free maneuver that ANYONE can do. If your players don't think grabs are worth using then either you aren't using them correctly or you and/or your players aren't aware of how to use them effectively.

[bigbywolfe]

The attacker doesn't have to make an attack roll to keep holding the defender and the defender doesn't have to make an attack roll to try to escape. THOSE are equivalent. They both need to make attack rolls to attack each other. Not sure why your group would have an issue with that.

[Ninja-Bear]

It's fine to house rule things if you feel the need to, but in my experience it generally it works best if there is a specific observed _problem_ that has led to an un-fun or unliked outcome once or more during actual play. House rules just to patch perceived rules inconsistencies in a vacuum don't always work out so well.

 

Is there a specific case or cases where the lack of a to-hit roll to escape a grab has caused a problem in your games?

Pseudo-logical?

Interesting about the grab and cause no damage cause when applied to an entangle, you are breaking, i.e. doing damage. Second then by your logic, if I do nothing more than grab an opponent which does no harm then I shouldn't have to roll a to-hit then?

[Ninja-Bear]

The attacker doesn't have to make an attack roll to keep holding the defender and the defender doesn't have to make an attack roll to try to escape. THOSE are equivalent. They both need to make attack rolls to attack each other. Not sure why your group would have an issue with that.

Attacker does have to roll to hold on, but still has to if he wants to do damage. But your point above is interesting and is noted. Thanks.

[bigbywolfe]

The attacker doesn't have to make an attack roll to keep holding the defender and the defender doesn't have to make an attack roll to try to escape. THOSE are equivalent. They both need to make attack rolls to attack each other. Not sure why your group would have an issue with that.

Did you mean to say "does not have to roll to hold on"? Because that's what I already said. You just reiterated what I said so I'm not sure what the point was.

 

Unless you meant what you said, in which case I still don't know what the point was but the statement is incorrect.

[Ninja-Bear]

This thread has inspired me for a new +1 element-Clinch fighter. With this element a fighter can fight using most of his natural weapons even when grabbed. It eliminates the -3 OCV of being grabbed.

[Ninja-Bear]

There are MANY benefits of grabbing that may not be immediately obvious or used by your group. That is part of the equation here. Grab is a tactical move available to ANYONE and offers a lot of benefits in a team based fight situation (which HERO is really designed for).

 

1. Its a free maneuver, anyone can do it. Of course the higher your strength the better.

2. A grabbed character cannot use most handheld Foci, allowing a Strong character to easily disable someone who relies on those.

3. A grabbed character is at 1/2 DCV against ALL attackers. Someone that is grabbed is then very easy for other party members to hit INCLUDING the grabbing character. Even tho the attacker may have to make an attack roll to do things like Crush he has his full OCV vs the Grabbed characters 1/2 DCV so unless landing the grab was a lucky shot chances are he will almost NEVER miss (and many GM's I know of don't even bother to roll once the odds get past a certain point to speed up gameplay unless its dramatically appropriate).

4. A grabbed character is at 1/2 OCV against all others (-3 vs the grabber). That means that for the most part he is effectively negated unless he has non-OCV based attacks (or something else is going on). In most games 1/2'ing OCV or DCV is a HUGE advantage/disadvantage that really changes the likely outcome of an attack.

5. You can grab things other than hands. Grabbing feet can prevent someone without exotic movement abilities from fleeing.

6. I don't feel like calculating the odds but in most cases if you are at least 5 points stronger it is actually VERY hard for someone weaker to break out of a grab (By RAW they have to roll MORE NDB against you in a Str vs Str roll. With 5 more strength they have to basically get 2 more 6's/fewer 1's to break out, and that is really hard on its own. Adding in an attack roll, especially with the normal modifiers, would make escape even less likely in many cases.

 

Basically a Grab is a Maneuver that is VERY similar and offers many of the same benefits as an Entangle, but it is a free maneuver that ANYONE can do. If your players don't think grabs are worth using then either you aren't using them correctly or you and/or your players aren't aware of how to use them effectively.

First of all, I didn't argue against points 1-4. Though I consider that maybe -3 OCV might be too high if the grabber's DCV isn't halved. Second if you have a brick type character, or a team then again halving the DCV isn't as bad a a solo character. But does this reflect a cinematic game? Realistic, yes. Let me ask you this, during any of Steven Seagal's movies where he didn't either throw or break a wrist, was he even at half DCV holding on to someone? I don''t think so.

[Killer Shrike]

It's fine to house rule things if you feel the need to, but in my experience it generally it works best if there is a specific observed _problem_ that has led to an un-fun or unliked outcome once or more during actual play. House rules just to patch perceived rules inconsistencies in a vacuum don't always work out so well.

 

Is there a specific case or cases where the lack of a to-hit roll to escape a grab has caused a problem in your games?

I'm sorry, but I can't understand what you are trying to say with that comment. Could you re-state it more clearly?

[Ninja-Bear]

The attacker doesn't have to make an attack roll to keep holding the defender and the defender doesn't have to make an attack roll to try to escape. THOSE are equivalent. They both need to make attack rolls to attack each other. Not sure why your group would have an issue with that.

Sorry my grammatical error. Actually the attacker then in the same phase can automatically either squeeze or throw for damage. So for a single phase, they aren't equivalent. The issue they have is if I have you grabbed, why should i have to roll to hit you again? (it like they want continuous for free I know). What I'm really is saying that the application of strength should be same no matter the use.

[bigbywolfe]

The attacker doesn't have to make an attack roll to keep holding the defender and the defender doesn't have to make an attack roll to try to escape. THOSE are equivalent. They both need to make attack rolls to attack each other. Not sure why your group would have an issue with that.

Why? Have you ever grappled? squeezing or crushing someone hard enough to cause damage is not the same as trying to hang on to someone at all.