Players forcing my hand

[ZootSoot]

A standard genre convention is not tht characters do not have or do not use killing attacks, even irresponsibly; it is, rather, that, for some reason, such use never results in truly ugly events. If your players choose to use KAs against targets that cannot withstand them, have events conspire to save the targets or reveal the targets are more than they seem. This is probably the simplest way to reconcile their actions with your vision.

[Korvar]

Thus giving the characters the incentive to use their killing attacks against, well, anything and everyone? Let's rampag through the city, shooting at passersby - the GM will ensure that none of them die!

 

I'm pretty sure that using a killing attack irresponsibly is off-genre!

[CrosshairCollie]

Always a thorny problem ... players who don't get the 'Hero' in Hero System. I've had to deal with it before ... usually, though, I have one clueless person and two or three people who get the genre and say 'NO, we can't do that'.

 

Possible solutions I can think of include:

 

The Switcheroo: An old classic; have a villain causing problems, then while he's running, pull a switch to a normal, preferably influential, person dressed up in the same outfit (even better, a DNPC). Whoops, you just killed the mayor. Downside: Very heavy-handed, the RP equivalent of being hit on the head with a hammer marked 'LESSON' on the side.

 

Well, We Shot First, But Nobody Can Answer The Questions: Launch a 'staged' plot ... some minions running amuck, stealing a component of a larger plan. When the PCs try to get information, the only one who knows anything was the one that's dead.

 

No, THIS Is How You Do It: Create a Super-Punisher type, who does what the PCs do, except even worse ... completely merciless. Then, especially if the PCs seem to be admiring him, have someone frame the PCs for a crime ... and Mr. Super-Punisher comes after them, completely unconcerned about whether they're really guilty or innocent; he knows they're guilty, so they get no mercy. One of my favorites.

[Farkling]

Dissertation time !!

 

A 12d6 Normal attack is only marginally less lethal than a 3d6 Killing Attack to normal people. Consider a 3 or 4 rolled on each die:

 

12d6 N => 12 BODY, 36 STUN to 12 BODY, 48 STUN

4d6 KA => 12 BODY, 24 STUN to 16 BODY, 48 STUN

 

What's the difference to a normal person?

Normal - PD 2 takes 10 BODY 34 STUN up to 10 BODY 46 STUN

Killing - PD 2 takes 12 BODY 24 STUN up to 16 BODY 48 STUN

Both are dead, the question is how many seconds they have to live. Knockback will kill the one hit by the killing damage.

 

Normal - PD 4 ranges 8 BODY 36 STUN up to 8 BODY 44 STUN

Killing - PD 4 ranges 12 BODY 24 STUN up to 16 BODY 48 STUN

Both are dead. If the normal attack has the knockback damge reduced the victim might live, but will be hospitalized for months healing back to 10 BODY.

 

At human maximum

Normal - PD 10 ranges 2 BODY, 26 STUN up to 2 BODY 28 STUN

Killing - PD 10 ranges 12 BODY, 24 STUN up to 16 BODY, 48 STUN

Ah...now it matters. The SWAT cops and SEALs are just as dead as the average human, instead of getting up within a few minutes.

 

However, te SWAT cops and SEALs wear armor. Especially around metahumans that are utilizing obviously lethal abilities. Lets look again, with their resistant defenses in place.

Hmm...how about Resistant Defenses of 3 or 6. Let's look at both bonus armor and simply resistant.

 

Normal PD 10/3 - 2 BODY, 26 STUN to 2 BODY, 38 STUN

. PD 13/3 - 0 BODY, 23 STUN to 0 BODY, 35 STUN

Killing PD 10/3 - 9 BODY, 14 STUN to 13 BODY, 38 STUN

. PD 13/3 - 9 BODY, 11 STUN to 13 BODY, 35 STUN

 

Normal PD 10/6 - 2 BODY, 26 STUN to 2 BODY, 38 STUN

. PD 16/6 - 0 BODY, 20 STUN to 0 BODY, 32 STUN

Killing PD 10/6 - 6 BODY, 14 STUN to 10 BODY, 38 STUN

. PD 16/6 - 6 BODY, 8 STUN to 10 BODY, 32 STUN

 

Hmm....that difference is enough to give a whole new respect to the T-101's shooting prowess... "They'll live."

 

Seriously, if you analyze those numbers, add add in average knockback, the normal attacks won't kill anyone, but the victims will remain unconscious far longer than the survivors of the killing attacks. Anybody remember Wolverine cuting up those guys at the Hellfire Club? They lived...and someone rebuilt them...cyborg survivors of his attacks kind of became a theme in his stories.

 

So, mechaincs demostrate that the only REAL difference in lethality of the killing attacks is in WHO dies waiting for paramedics and WHO dies en route to the hospital.

 

Once we start factoring in resistant defenses from vests and the like, its quite easy to see why the cops would slowly get angry with these heroes...those KA's are quite capable of shredding their armor and killing them on a solid hit. Additionally, the heavily armored humans who get hit once and do NOT get taken down by the STUN lotto will quite likely DIE with the second shot. Personally, I think that is part of the game mechanic for the stun lotto...if you get a bad stun roll or two, you can concievably kill your target by accident with repeated shots.

 

Now against HEROes...it is FAR more likely that targets will simply be blasted unconscious than killed by a normal attack.

 

On a side note; excepting Wolverine, most X-Men and Avengers and FF members pulled their punches steadily, thus the repeated training sessions. They were capable of those full power all out attacks, and trained trained trained to hold back the BODY damage.

[ZootSoot]

Originally posted by Korvar

Thus giving the characters the incentive to use their killing attacks against, well, anything and everyone? Let's rampag through the city, shooting at passersby - the GM will ensure that none of them die!

 

I'm pretty sure that using a killing attack irresponsibly is off-genre!

 

The Human Torch is a mess of killing attacks. Superman should kill just about anyone he lays a hand. While Wolverine does kill, he also uses his claws in combat without killing. Almost every comic book character out there regularly uses dangerous, KA type attacks, sometimes exclusively, without causing irrevocable havoc. I am not suggesting that there be no consequences for reckless use of force; but if you wish to simulate the genre then it is incumbent on both players and GMs to work to achieve it. You can have all sorts of in game consequences for poorly conceived actions, but if you allow the characters to murder bystanders willy-nilly then, in genre, the only appropriate in game consequences will be to end those characters' careers; I would think this would not be fun for either the players or the GM.

[zornwil]

People have covered pretty well the expectations-setting and consensus-building approaches.

 

The one thing I would add is, how vulnerable are your normals? Make sure your PCs aren't using killing attacks because the normals are too effective. This happens a lot in games and players get frustrated shooting at normals to little effect OR they become accustomed to throwing KAs and having them not do more than "just" cripple normals (which, depending on what you read, might be very genre, there's some Miller/post-Miller Batmans that suggest his punishment on villains is often very brutal, involving many injuries that can take weeks - even mnnths - to heal).

[Doc Democracy]

I think I'm with Zornwil.

 

You have to make killing normals less satisfying. I'd be inclined to make any normal hit by a killing attack dead or dying and ensure that the heroes hit often when they attack a normal.

 

I'm also in favour of enforcing genre by making sure they pay the consequences. Even if you have to switch sub-genre as discussed. I'd say you might be moving from a Teen Titans style game to a Suicide Squad style game.

 

Yup. The players get to use their killing attacks on normals but they are having to follow Government instructions and it is enemies of the state that are dying. There is also a decent chance that heroes do not survive suicide squad missions so they might be rolling new characters at semi-regular intervals.

 

When a new character is generated ask them whether they want a 'suicide squad' character or go back to the heroic style of game you started with.

 

Suicide Squad stuff can be really good fun.

[Argus]

Before you have the police take them down.

 

Try this.

 

The Heroes show up at a bank robbery.

The thugs are leaving the bank and see the "Heroes" arrive. They throw down their weapons and yell, “Please don’t Kill US.â€

 

Have mothers grab their children and run from them when they see them coming.

Have the police ask them when they get a call from them, “How many ambulances do we need.â€

 

Have some little kid playing the Heroes hurt some other little kid.

 

Have a gang start using the Heroes Name and Colors.

 

 

 

A.

[Rakshasa]

The rules-lawyering way...

 

Hi,

 

Maybe your players cannot be detered by roleplaying means. That's often the case with commited D&D players.

 

As a frequent offender in ruleslawyering I can only give you one advice : make the rules go against the undesired behaviour.

 

What about this : there's a very potent telepath hidden somewhere. Using a cerebro-like contraption, he has recently begun to send violence inducing mindwaves. Anyone capable of mass destruction can be affected, which mainly targets superheroes, supervillains, and some soldiers.

 

Every time one of your players lets his violent side loose, have him try an EGO roll against some fixed difficulty. Each time he fails, he gains 1 BODY of cumulative Transform. The minor effect is a strange fever that can't be cured by mundane means. The major effect is recurring fits of berserk rage (only accelerating the transformation). The final effect is a nasty head explosion, which you can bloodily demonstrate on some hot-tempered supervillain. Healing takes durable restraint.

 

Now your players can clearly see what you dislike and understand what you're gonna do if they persist.

 

If they get it and behave, you can have them destroy the wave-sending machine, but the telepath will (of course) escape by the skin of his teeth, to come back should he be needed again...

 

Rakshasa.

[Rebar]

I have to say, I don't think the in-game techniques will work, and will more than likely backfire.

 

If your players have no trouble using full-power on normals, it's because they don't see the genre the same way many of us here do.

 

Talk to them. Find out where they're coming from and what they want from the game. Hash out a campaign tone that everyone can agree to and abide by - even if it isn't what everybody's ideal is.

[Farkling]

Rebar hit the nail on the head.

 

Half my players understand the genre completely, the other half suffer from a DnD mindset. (loot the bodies, steal the technology, kill the enemies). One set up his character without lethal attacks to avoid the quandry.

 

The others...well, they've had some messy accidents, and suffered the same lack of respect towards themselves. I actually warned them in the midst of a combat that if they were okay with cutting down unconscious foes, to be warned the villains would likely react in the same manner.

 

The genre players now have a difference of opinion with one lethal character, that may well lead to a breakup of the team. The other lethal player can now see the consequences of his actions, and is playing the lethality much more cautiously around them.

[Rebar]

I actually warned them in the midst of a combat that if they were okay with cutting down unconscious foes, to be warned the villains would likely react in the same manner.

 

Right, but this will fall on deaf ears. Those who play as if life is cheap aren't likely too attached to their own characters.

 

"Drat. Now I'll have to write up a new character. Well, this time I won't waste all those points on background skills..."

[Farkling]

The genre fiends have 15% skills purchased.

 

The DnD refugees have 10%, as required by the gamemaster. I knew who to expect this behavior from.

[wylodmayer]

Re: Players forcing my hand

 

There are really only two options:

 

1) Get new players. I mean, really. That sounds harsh, but it's true. Ultimately, you can't have a group where one guy wants to play a villainous scumbag and one guy wants to play Dudley Do-Right and still expect to be able to run a game where everyone can have fun. Although a good campaign is flexible enough to accomodate many different philosophies of play and role-playing aims, ultimately, there is a point past which all members of the group have to be on basically the same page.

 

Try talking to these players before taking any drastic action, of course. I think problems like this are metagame issues and best approached that way. The choice to play a killer or a non-killer in a supergame is a matter of the "feel" of the game more than anything, and that is something to be hashed out between the players and the GM, not within the campaign world. In the final analysis, in every game the players do or do not do things not because they make sense internally, but because they are genre-appropriate. Superheroes wear bright spandex not because it makes sense necessarily, or is the most pragmatic thing to do, but because it's in genre. If you don't think that the PCs offing your villains is a good thing for everyone's enjoyment of the game (including yours! you may be GM, but you are there to have fun, too), tell them so, and tell them that they are disrupting everyone else's fun. This isn't an issue of one CHARACTER aggravating another, it's an issue of a real person stepping on the toes of one or more other real people, and that's something that should be handled by the real people involved.

 

2) Failing a metagame solution, I can only recommend loosing the fires of Hell upon them. I mean, don't get malicious, or they will be deservedly bitter. But killing NPCs is not acceptable in most superhero worlds, and will generate a s**tstorm for the PCs in question. Aside from average citizens being afraid of them, other heroes will be out to get them, friends of the villains killed, other villains who think they need to off the hero first, etc etc. The more people they kill, the bigger this will get, until it consumes the entire game. And don't be afraid of that. In a sense, this is a metagame solution, too, because unless the players of these characters enjoy spending ALL of their playing time in a constant running battle with police, UNTIL, the FBI, PRIMUS, other heroes, and a whole cadre of villains, then they will eventually get tired of it all, and decide to quit killing NPCs just because it's less hassle to let them live.

 

Important note. Ask yourself if the PCs have a REASON for this behavior. If you've constantly emphasized the "revolving door" view of putting super criminals in jail, then I can't say as I totally blame them for their tactics. Remember, players tend to act toward their own interests - you can't run a swashbuckling game where people swing from chandeliers regularly if you try to get all detailed and picky about the amount of weight chandeliers will support and so on. In short, if you've been leaving these players with no viable options for stopping these villains from running amok, then the fault lies in yourself, not in your stars, so to speak. However, if they are just bloodthirsty, see above.