Evaluating The Hero System (Or Any Game System)

[Toadmaster]

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

Amen! If the use of the word "he" as a generic pronoun offends you, that's your problem. (Oh. Was there already a thread covering this? I must have missed it.)

 

I don't know if you are joking or not? But yes there was quite a thread on this on the old boards non gaming discussion (back when I was brave or foolish enough to delve into that maelstrom, now I just beat my head against walls it is far more productive).

 

At great personal risk (I think it would be safer to start chanting the names of the outer gods of the Cthulhu mythos) I will explain. Somebody started a rant about DoJ's writer's guidelines because DoJ insisted that the male pronoun be used when required by the rules of the english language (ie when non specific gender such as "the gm will" is used) as opposed to the increasingly common d20 style. There were a few vocal (all male as far as I could tell) posters who were planning to boycott DoJ for their insensitive anti-female policies and were blaming much of the ills of womenhood on "chavenists" like Mr Long. It went on for a really insanely long number of posts (like 50 pages or so) , many of them pleas to stop wasting bandwidth. Supposedly it was actually bogging down the server, eventually it crashed under its own weight partially deleting itself.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Toadmaster

I can see where your coming from and it is a common belief but I feel this is more a limitation of imagination regarding the use of the rules rather than a real failure of the rules. I think the reason HERO magic seems to "feel" like super powers is not so much because the rules were made for supers but because most people build their spells like super powers. It would take alot of work I'm pretty sure it would be possible to make a really close approximation of D&D magic in HERO.

Im making a go of it again(http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/Magic.htm), but also plan to do other types of magic systems once I finish getting all of the D&D3e spells converted (or most of them anyway). The trick is balancing them against one another for concurrent use.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Rene

IDon't worry. You've always been very polite. If anything, it's I that should apologize.

 

Don't even consider it, you're cool.

 

If it means anything to you, I could easily imagine that D&D works well for those who really aren't interested in simulating their fantasy genre, rather, they want a "fun game", which probably describes the larger mass of fantasy players (which is by no means an insult at all - there's nothing wrong with that, few people really want details and weeds). Particuarly based on your descriptions and feedback I'd guess that's the case.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Toadmaster

I can see where your coming from and it is a common belief but I feel this is more a limitation of imagination regarding the use of the rules rather than a real failure of the rules. I think the reason HERO magic seems to "feel" like super powers is not so much because the rules were made for supers but because most people build their spells like super powers. It would take alot of work I'm pretty sure it would be possible to make a really close approximation of D&D magic in HERO.

 

I agree, I do think it's an imagination thing. That's why it doesn't bother me - if I wanted to "rectify" it, I could, but it does require more GM work - or devotion to Fantasy HERO's take on it.

[Rene]

Originally posted by zornwil

Don't even consider it, you're cool.

 

Hey, thanks. It's just that I can get heated in discussions.

 

 

Originally posted by zornwil

If it means anything to you, I could easily imagine that D&D works well for those who really aren't interested in simulating their fantasy genre, rather, they want a "fun game", which probably describes the larger mass of fantasy players (which is by no means an insult at all - there's nothing wrong with that, few people really want details and weeds). Particuarly based on your descriptions and feedback I'd guess that's the case.

 

I'd add one more thing in D&D's favor. Genre simulation not always translates to ease of play. D&D's philosophy has always been "if you try to do A, and roll X, then Y happens", it's straighforward and there is very little left to GM's interpretation in the magic system.

 

Accurate simulation of magic in genre would require more from the GM. And I don't think that is D&D's style.

[TheEmerged]

RE: d20 and genre interpretation. Actually, I've seen a magic system under d20 that works *very* well and comes much closer to how it works in genre fiction -- the one from the non-TSR Sovereign Stone product. It's not 100% where I want it to be but it's much closer than casting Magic Missile into the darkness...

[Rene]

Originally posted by TheEmerged

RE: d20 and genre interpretation. Actually, I've seen a magic system under d20 that works *very* well and comes much closer to how it works in genre fiction -- the one from the non-TSR Sovereign Stone product. It's not 100% where I want it to be but it's much closer than casting Magic Missile into the darkness...

 

Interesting. Could you give more details? Some fans said the magic system from d20 Modern would do the job, but I think it's the same old same old magic system, only powered down.

 

I was thinking, as bad as the wide disparity among levels can be in D&D, at least it's more in genre than the magic system. There are a lot of fantasy stories (specially the fat book trilogies) where the main characters finish the story a lot more powerful than they begun.

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by Rene

Interesting. Could you give more details? Some fans said the magic system from d20 Modern would do the job, but I think it's the same old same old magic system, only powered down.

 

I was thinking, as bad as the wide disparity among levels can be in D&D, at least it's more in genre than the magic system. There are a lot of fantasy stories (specially the fat book trilogies) where the main characters finish the story a lot more powerful than they begun.

 

d20 Modern's magic system -- at least the one in the core book, I wasn't impressed enough to purchase Urban Arcana -- really isn't much different from the 3D&D model. The difference is that it only goes to level 6 spells if I recall properly. Since 3D&D was only adequately tested through 11th level (allegedly the sum total of >11th level testing was 5 groups going through 3 adventures -- and not all 5 groups went through all 3 adventures) -- which again is an allegation but one that suits the evidence -- you don't have to worry about the completely-out-of-whack 7th through 9th level spells.

 

/begin summary

Sovereign Stone's system replaces the arcane/divine distinctions between magic and replaces it with a 5-elemental system -- the four traditional elements opposing "evil" magic. It also replaces the manifester level & spell level mechanics with a VERY interesting system. Instead of having a spell level, each spell has a "threshold" you must beat to cast the spell. Each turn you roll d20 and add your spellcasting bonus (think "manifester level") -- your attributes don't figure in. If that result is higher than the casting threshold you cast the spell.

 

Where it gets interesting is in the likely event it isn't. You then have to make a Fortitude save -- fail and you take Fatigue damage. Succeed or fail at that roll however and you can continue rolling next round, with cumulative results (and additional Fortitude saves that get harder), until you either pass out from Fatigue damage or reach the CT.

 

That means that yes, a first level character could theoretically cast a Fireball -- they'd just need a series of good rolls (CT 66 so they'd need at least 4 rolls in the upper teens plus successes of 3 fortitude saves) and it would take them several rounds.

/end summary

 

/begin opinion

Which isn't to say it's perfect, because it isn't. Because of the way your spellcasting bonus is figured it runs into the multiclassing problem indemic to 3D&D -- absolutely screaming for a mechanic like 3.5D&D's Mystic Theurge in my opinion. The official mechanic for quickening spells in Sovereign Stone is also a bad joke. I personally am not fond of the fact that race matters more for spellcasting bonus than attributes.

 

However, with some tweaking for these areas it seems, at least in our limited tests, to work a LOT closer to the way magic tends to work in genre fiction.

[PhilFleischmann]

Originally posted by Toadmaster

I don't know if you are joking or not? But yes there was quite a thread on this on the old boards non gaming discussion (back when I was brave or foolish enough to delve into that maelstrom, now I just beat my head against walls it is far more productive).

Not only is it more productive, it's also less painful. No, I wasn't joking. It shows how long it's been since I learned to stay away from the Non-Gaming Discussion area. I've always believed that, as a whole, RPGers tend to be of above-average intelligence. The non-gaming discussion area was shaking my faith in that belief. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy non-gaming discussions, I just don't turn to a gaming site to have one.

 

(50 pages!? Boycott?! Man, I'm glad there's a separate are for those people.)

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

Not only is it more productive, it's also less painful. No, I wasn't joking. It shows how long it's been since I learned to stay away from the Non-Gaming Discussion area. I've always believed that, as a whole, RPGers tend to be of above-average intelligence. The non-gaming discussion area was shaking my faith in that belief. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy non-gaming discussions, I just don't turn to a gaming site to have one.

 

(50 pages!? Boycott?! Man, I'm glad there's a separate are for those people.)

 

Maybe your experience has been different, but there's no way I'd expect the average gamer to be more intelligent, educated, mature, or erudite than the average of the general population.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Kristopher

Maybe your experience has been different, but there's no way I'd expect the average gamer to be more intelligent, educated, mature, or erudite than the average of the general population.

Sadly, I would be forced to concur. Ive met some really stupid people gaming. Of course Ive also met a (smaller) number of highly creative, extremely intelligent people gaming as well.

 

Personally, I find that the cut off seems to hover between those who are productive and knowledgeable and those who have the occasional good idea but are far too lazy to do anything about it.

 

When I started playing hardcore/seriously in highschool, everyone of us in my group (which fluctuated between 5 and 7 players) tested at genius level intellects. I was somewhat spoiled I think. Ever since those days its been a frustrating search for equally talented people, and its never been matched overall. However, over the years Ive had groups of very solid rpg-ers across the gamut of mental depths.

 

I dont think that gamers are perforce any brighter than anyone else in objective terms, but a healthy imagination and decision making skills certainly dont hurt and therefore some of the people attracted to RPGs in general are probably brought into the hobby bcs they have those qualities and RPGs subsequently play to their strengths. Conversely RPGs take up a lot of time and arent really productive in any real measurable way and dont require much in the way of actual skills/knowledge/or ability (thats what skill rolls are for in most systems, afterall), so they will also tend to attract people that have no real skills and nothing better to do with their time.

 

It probably all balances out at some point.

[PhilFleischmann]

Originally posted by Kristopher

Maybe your experience has been different, but there's no way I'd expect the average gamer to be more intelligent, educated, mature, or erudite than the average of the general population.

Well, I certainly didn't say "mature" or "erudite", but I would say intelligent and educated. RPG's and games in general, tend to be fairly intellectual pursuits. Players use their imagination, make plans, and in general must exercise their minds more than many other hobbies. Often they are inspired to learn about topics related to their games, history for instance. It's certainly true in my case, and most of the gamer's I know. As was mentioned previously, games often increase the player's vocabularies.

 

But no, I don't think gamer's are any more mature than non-gamers.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

Well, I certainly didn't say "mature" or "erudite", but I would say intelligent and educated. RPG's and games in general, tend to be fairly intellectual pursuits. Players use their imagination, make plans, and in general must exercise their minds more than many other hobbies. Often they are inspired to learn about topics related to their games, history for instance. It's certainly true in my case, and most of the gamer's I know. As was mentioned previously, games often increase the player's vocabularies.

 

But no, I don't think gamer's are any more mature than non-gamers.

 

As I said, your experience must be different. *shrug*

 

I've also learned, from working in a computer store/shop, that bieng intelligent and educated doesn't protect people from holding completely counter-factual and even idiotic ideas about the world.

[Rene]

Originally posted by TheEmerged

However, with some tweaking for these areas it seems, at least in our limited tests, to work a LOT closer to the way magic tends to work in genre fiction.

 

I liked it. From what you described, it resembles the Ars Magica system a little.

 

You could easily model several kinds of magicians by giving bonuses/penalties to cast certain "schools" of spells according to your class, forbidding certain schools to certain classes, or requiring that certain classes make use of specific props or rituals to avoid getting penalties (or gaining bonuses) in spellcasting.

 

The flexibility of this kind of system is infinite, it's very easy to modify too.

[Rene]

Originally posted by Kristopher

I've also learned, from working in a computer store/shop, that bieng intelligent and educated doesn't protect people from holding completely counter-factual and even idiotic ideas about the world.

 

"Counter-factual" and "Idiotic" ideas?

 

Well, intelligent and educated people are humans too. Usually they're oppinionated, argumentative humans. And some of them will have oppinions contrary to yours (or mine).

 

I've learned that sometimes it can be more relaxing to circulate among your intelectual lessers. Less educated people either don't try to argue, or they do it poorly and are easy to dismiss.

 

It's when you get to know people as intelligent as yourself and that don't feel intimidated by your ideas that things can get explosive very fast.

[schir1964]

Re: Evaluating The Hero System (Or Any Game System)

 

Bump

[Zeropoint]

Re: Evaluating The Hero System (Or Any Game System)

 

Regarding the "feel" of magic in Hero: I don't recall there being a Magic chapter in 5er. If you want magic, you'll have to build a magic system, and the feel you get is the feel you build. If you want wizards that can throw a fireball with nothing more than the decision to do so and a little bit of END, there you go. It'll feel a lot like superpowers. If you want a wizard to cast spells by spending a week researching the proper rituals and invocations, and then another week gathering the components, and then a third week preparing the ingredients and the magic circle, you can build that, too.

 

If I have to go through all that to cast a fireball, though, I'm just going to get me a clay pot full of oil.

 

Regarding the problems of D&D: I, too, dislike random character generation and class/level systems, particularly classes. No surprise there. Also, I dislike pretty much every design decision made in the game, on an individual mechanic-by-mechanic basis.

 

That's all personal opinion, though. My biggest problem is something that really only crystallized in my mind recently. The D&D book market is flooded with books of prestige classes, books of extra feats, books of templates, books of huge lists of various game-mechanical add-ons. I realized the other day that the game is infused with the unspoken assumption that you can only do what the game books give you explicit permission to do.

 

Hero is based on the clearly stated premise that you can do anything. It gives you the tools you need to do almost anything, then gives not only permission, but encouragement to those who wish to go beyond, even going so far as to give advice for doing so.

 

Most of my friends are D&D gamers, and I've seen them being subtly affected by the attitude I mentioned above. (or so it seems to me) They buy bestiary after bestiary, but I don't think they'd really consider creating their own original creatures. They buy books of prestige classes, but no D&Der would ever consider creating his or her own new class. And, if you're going to go for one of those prestige classes, you have to follow the book's vision for that class. They buy the new books with an excited attitude of, "Ooh, look what this new book allows me to do!"

 

In Hero, once you have 5er, you can do anything.

 

Zeropoint

[ghost-angel]

Re: Evaluating The Hero System (Or Any Game System)

 

In Hero, once you have 5er, you can do anything.

 

Zeropoint

This is it in a nutshell.

 

I said somewhere else: I own a lot of Hero System Books, but when I go game the only thing I bring with me is the Core System Book, and that's all I ever need To Game.

[Tim]

Re: Evaluating The Hero System (Or Any Game System)

 

This is it in a nutshell.

 

I said somewhere else: I own a lot of Hero System Books, but when I go game the only thing I bring with me is the Core System Book, and that's all I ever need To Game.

I add "The Ultimate Martial Artist" and whatever genre book we're playing.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Evaluating The Hero System (Or Any Game System)

 

One of the things I think about when judging a game system is:

 

What sort of player is this game system likely to attract?

 

There are some games (Star Fleet Battles, Advanced Squad Leader) that are near-legendary for their ability to draw rules lawyers out of a crowd like moths to a flame. I don't play them much, unless it's with friends that I know are not going to spend hours with their noses buried in rulebooks, quoting errata at eachother. Actually, I don't play them at all, anymore. I don't have that kind of time.

[Shike019]

Re: Evaluating The Hero System (Or Any Game System)

 

Most of my friends are D&D gamers, and I've seen them being subtly affected by the attitude I mentioned above. (or so it seems to me) They buy bestiary after bestiary, but I don't think they'd really consider creating their own original creatures. They buy books of prestige classes, but no D&Der would ever consider creating his or her own new class. And, if you're going to go for one of those prestige classes, you have to follow the book's vision for that class. They buy the new books with an excited attitude of, "Ooh, look what this new book allows me to do!"

 

In Hero, once you have 5er, you can do anything.

 

Zeropoint

 

 

That's not entirely true I am a D&D gamer, yes i know, don't hit me over the head please. And I and my friends have often times created our own classes, prestige classes, feats, etc. Also on some of the DND boards at wizards, homemade classes, feats, prestige classes, spells, etc. are posted regularly for crituque by the community, though that particular community tends to be vicious at times.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Evaluating The Hero System (Or Any Game System)

 

That's not entirely true I am a D&D gamer' date=' yes i know, don't hit me over the head please. And I and my friends have often times created our own classes, prestige classes, feats, etc. Also on some of the DND boards at wizards, homemade classes, feats, prestige classes, spells, etc. are posted regularly for crituque by the community, though that particular community tends to be vicious at times.[/quote']

 

one example to the contrary does not render the generalization invalid.

 

You can get very bad data by assuming that the population on a message base are a representative cross section of a larger population.

[tesuji]

Re: Evaluating The Hero System (Or Any Game System)

 

Major considerations for me are:

 

Workload: This comes in two-parts: GM and player. I don't want to need to do a lot of work to build the basics to suit my needs. As such, toolkit systems usually fail this test. Similarly, i don't want my players to need to do a ton of work to get their characters going. i really want chargen to be longer at coming up with concept and name than putting stats down. I want to be able to fit most if not all relevent PC stats on an index card of about 4x5. (Serenity = scores high here. MNM scores OK (better for MnM 1e than 2e)NWOD score OK DnD= poor. HERO lower.)

 

Buy-in: How much monye and how many books does it take to get going? Is there a downloadable chargen or SRD for the players? if the buy-in for my players is high, then I will likely have to create a chargen guide myself. If the system is heavy enough to require rulebooks for the players, not just be helpful, then its likely dropping in this category. (D20 scores high here. Serneity OK, MNM OK, HERO scores low but sidekick might change that.)

 

Intuitiveness: How understandable is the game play in terms of "i have to look that up" vs "i can figure that works this way". I really want systems where the basic "how to" is so friggin' obvious and consitent most people can sit down, get handed a character sheet and go! (Serentiy and NWOD get high scores. MNM gets decent, HERo gets medium DND gets low.)

 

Genre: How well does it fit my setting and genre of choice and capture the feel and flavor. Basically, genre/flavor take prec3dence and system will be made to fit. (Serenity gets high. NWOD gets moderate. OGL gets moderate MNM gets OK, D20 gets low HERO gets low with the exception of supers where it gets medium. DND gets an exception bucause it is defining its own genre by now.)

[David Johnston]

Re: Evaluating The Hero System (Or Any Game System)

 

Regarding the "feel" of magic in Hero: I don't recall there being a Magic chapter in 5er. If you want magic, you'll have to build a magic system, and the feel you get is the feel you build. If you want wizards that can throw a fireball with nothing more than the decision to do so and a little bit of END, there you go. It'll feel a lot like superpowers. If you want a wizard to cast spells by spending a week researching the proper rituals and invocations, and then another week gathering the components, and then a third week preparing the ingredients and the magic circle, you can build that, too.

 

What I have tried and failed to do is capture the GURPS magic system in Hero. Maybe the way to go about that is to give mages a variable power pool with the limitation "Must find a book or make an spell invention roll to add a new possible power". But even then you don't have the kind of gradual ascent where because you've mastered "Ignite Fire" now you can move on to "Shape Fire", and once you've mastered that, you can move on to "Fireball" that really gives me the feeling that magic is more about what you know than what you can do.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Evaluating The Hero System (Or Any Game System)

 

What I have tried and failed to do is capture the GURPS magic system in Hero. Maybe the way to go about that is to give mages a variable power pool with the limitation "Must find a book or make an spell invention roll to add a new possible power". But even then you don't have the kind of gradual ascent where because you've mastered "Ignite Fire" now you can move on to "Shape Fire"' date=' and once you've mastered that, you can move on to "Fireball" that really gives me the feeling that magic is more about what you know than what you can do.[/quote']

Just add a -0 Limitation must know Spell X to Learn/Use This Spell on everything.

 

And roleplaying, that's what it's there for.