Megascale Teleport

[Cassandra]

Teleport 1", Megascale 10000km (+1 1/5), Safe Blind Teleport (+1/4)

 

Does the above mean you can teleport anywhere within 10000km, as in anywhere on Earth?

 

I'm trying to build the Justice League Transporter.

[Hyper-Man]

Teleport 1", Megascale 10000km (+1 1/5), Safe Blind Teleport (+1/4)

 

Does the above mean you can teleport anywhere within 10000km, as in anywhere on Earth?

 

I'm trying to build the Justice League Transporter.

 

Don't you mean +1 1/4 ?

 

Anyway, as built, your version's MINIMUM Teleport distance is 10,000km.  You would need to include the Can Be Scaled Down Advantage as well.  I would also argue that you need to include No Relative Velocity if you want to teleport to the opposite side of the planet (to account for planetary rotation).

 

In 5er this minimum is still 1"=1km though.  The minimum in 6e is 1m=1m.

 

5er example:

 

33 Global Transporter for 5er: Teleportation 1", No Relative Velocity, Safe Blind Teleport (+1/4), MegaScale (1" = 10,000 km; +1 1/4), Can Be Scaled Down 1" = 1km (+1/4) (33 Active Points) END=3

 

from 5er page 235

 

MegaScale: Characters often apply MegaScale to Teleportation to create really long-range Teleportation powers. A character using MegaTeleportation can Teleport to any location between his minimum distance (whatever he defines 1” as equaling) and his maximum distance; he doesn’t have to Teleport in even 1” increments. However, if the character doesn’t have some way to perceive his target location, he runs the standard risk of misteleporting. If he misteleports, the MegaScale also applies to the inches he goes off -target.

 

 

6e example:

 

36 Global Transporter for 6er: Teleportation 1m, No Relative Velocity, Safe Blind Teleport (+1/4), MegaScale (1m = 10,000 km; +2) (36 Active Points) - END=4

 

from 6e page 302:

 

MegaScale: Characters often apply MegaScale to Teleportation to create really long-range Teleportation powers. A character using MegaTeleportation can Teleport to any location between his minimum distance (whatever he defines 2m as equaling) and his maximum distance; he doesn’t have to Teleport in even 2m increments. However, if the character doesn’t have some way to perceive his target location, he runs the standard risk of misteleporting. If he misteleports, the MegaScale also applies to the meters he goes off-target.

 

[Cassandra]

Don't you mean +1 1/4 ?

 

Anyway, as built, your version's MINIMUM Teleport distance is 10,000km.  You would need to include the Can Be Scaled Down Advantage as well.  I would also argue that you need to include No Relative Velocity if you want to teleport to the opposite side of the planet (to account for planetary rotation).

 

In 5er this minimum is still 1"=1km though.  The minimum in 6e is 1m=1m.

 

Example:

33 Global Transporter for 5er: Teleportation 1", No Relative Velocity, Safe Blind Teleport (+1/4), MegaScale (1" = 10,000 km; +1 1/4), Can Be Scaled Down 1" = 1km (+1/4) (33 Active Points) END=3

 

from 5er page 235

 

36 Global Transporter for 6er: Teleportation 1m, No Relative Velocity, Safe Blind Teleport (+1/4), MegaScale (1m = 10,000 km; +2) (36 Active Points) - END=4

 

from 6e page 302:

 

 

Thank you very much, Hyper-Man.  This is very helpful.

[Kraven Kor]

 

 

I would also argue that you need to include No Relative Velocity if you want to teleport to the opposite side of the planet (to account for planetary rotation).

 

Yeah, but that takes all the fun out of it...  :evil:

[bigbywolfe]

Hyperman, I think some of that is simply copy and paste from 5E that wasn't corrected.  For example, CC page 110 says:
 

Converts the standard meter used to measure distance and
area to a larger unit of measurement. For example, instead of
Teleportation 10m, a character might have MegaTeleportation
measured in units of 1,000km, so his 10,000km Teleport lets
him travel between continents.
The amount of MegaScale a character buys defines the
upper limit to the scale of his power. He can vary the scale from
use to use, from 1m = 1m up to 1m = the maximum distance he
bought MegaScale for. If he must use MegaScale at its defined
upper limit all the time, it’s worth ¼ less Advantage.

Even 6E1 pg 341 says:
 

A character with a MegaMovement Power
isn’t restricted to moving in “meters” defined by
the upper increment of his MegaScaling; he can
change the scale from use to use, and can stop in

the “middle” of a “meter” if desired.

Of course it contradicts itself in the next paragraph saying:
 

For example,
 

suppose a character has MegaTeleportation (1m
= 1,000 km). Using it, he could Teleport in even
increments of 1,000 km, but he could also Teleport
1,200 km, or 4,136.278 km, or any other distance.
Similarly, if a character has MegaRunning, he can
stop anywhere he wants to once he’s moved as
far as the minimum distance for the power. With
MegaLeaping and MegaTeleportation, a character
may also have difficulty perceiving the target location
(see 6E1 243 and 300).

But the example on 6E1 340 says:
 

Vector buys MegaScale for his Running
so he can Run at superfast speeds. He buys
MegaScale (1m = 10 km; +1¼) for his Running
20m. Thus, every time he uses his Running he
can define each meter as being anywhere from
1m long (standard, personal scale) to 10 km long
(allowing him to run up to 200 km per Phase!).
For example, one Phase he could run at a speed
of 1m = 10m, the next Phase 1m = 10 km, the
next at 1m = 512.7m, and the next at 1m = 1
km. But if he chooses to define each meter as
any distance longer than a meter, such as 1m =
2m, he’s using MegaRunning and suffers all the
restrictions involved (for example, it takes a Full
Phase and is considered Noncombat Movement).

So either the examples in 6E1 and the text of CC is wrong, or the examples in 6E and the text of CC are correct and the text of 6E1 is wrong due to lazy copy/pasting from 5E.  I'm pretty sure it's the latter case and that Megascale Movement is supposed to be able to scale anywhere from 1m to whatever level you bought it to reach.

[Hyper-Man]

I agree that 6e and CC allow any distance (including no minimum). I wasn't commenting on CC originally because I didn't find anything to say it was different from 6e with regard to Megascale and Teleportation.

 

5er definitely had a minimum though.

[bigbywolfe]

Well, you quoted the erroneous part of 6E that lists the rule as being the same as 5E so it seemed you didn't know. I guess I misunderstood the point of that quote. Sorry.

[Hyper-Man]

This is one change in 6e from 5er that wasn't even clear to me at first glance either (someone else pointed it out to me!).

 

Using Hero Designer illustrates it more clearly than any of the quotes imo.  In 5e you have to add the Can Be Scaled Down Advantage.  That Advantage no longer exists in 6e, rather there is an Adder option within Megascale called Cannot Alter Scale (-1/4).  If you don't take that Adder (Limitation) then the Movement Power that Megascale is applied to will not have a minimum scale.

[DShomshak]

IIRC the Justice League teleporters only moved characters between tubes: You stepped in one tube and zap! appeared in another. Sounds like Fixed Points to me. So, buy Fixed Points but Limit the power that it only moves characters between those locations. (-1 Limitation if the target points are truly fixed, -1/2 if any locations are mobile, i.e., Floating Points.)

[Cassandra]

In the Justice League Unlimited Episode "Double Date" The Transporter was used to save Black Canary and Green Arrow from an oncoming train.  They ended up in the river, so I don't think the JLU has No Relative Velocity.

[Hyper-Man]

In the Justice League Unlimited Episode "Double Date" The Transporter was used to save Black Canary and Green Arrow from an oncoming train.  They ended up in the river, so I don't think the JLU has No Relative Velocity.

 

The only possible explanation would be having the satellite in geosynchronous orbit (22,000 miles away!) around the equator in view of North America.  That would ensure 0 ground speed difference.  I think this is highly unlikely as all the images show the satellite in what appears to be near earth orbit (100-200 miles up) meaning it orbits the world in less than 1 hour!  Just transporting someone to the ground requires the No Rel Advantage because of orbital speed vs. ground speed differences. 

 

I think the likely explanation for what happened to GA and BC was a mini-limit on the way the transporters work.  What they were asking for in the episode was an EMERGENCY transport.  In Hero mechanical terms that would probably work out  to mean a kind of Dive for Cover by proxy (Combat movement vs. Megascale/non-combat). This also means transporting between 2 Points on the surface of the earth without traveling to the satellite.  It's arguable that the No Rel Velo Advantage is tied to the Megascale transport between a point on the planet and the satellite (call it use of inertial dampeners on the station itself) or they just didn't have time to engage those systems due to the emergency time aspect (abort to Dive for Cover).

[esampson]

The basic concept is sound but there are some issues with the specific execution related to Megascale and teleportation.

If a character with MegaTeleportation has a Fixed or Floating Fixed Location, he can Teleport to that location safely, whether he can perceive it or not. However, if a character’s Floating or Fixed Floating Location is closer than the shortest range increment of his MegaTeleportation, he cannot Teleport there unless the GM specifically permits him to.

This is a really awkward statement because in general the shortest range increment of someone's MegaTeleportation is 1m=1m according to the rules. However when that literal definition is used the statement becomes one of blinding obviousness (characters cannot teleport a shorter range than any limitations they may have taken will allow) so I think some interpreting of the statement has to be done.
 
I think what is meant is that characters cannot teleport to fixed or floating locations as fixed or floating location if they happen to be closer than 1m x the Megascale multiplier. They can teleport to fixed or floating locations as if they are regular locations since there isn't any implied limitation that regular locations have to be further away than that and it doesn't make sense that by spending extra points you gain a restriction. 1m x the Megascale multiplier makes sense because pretty much anything else can be either reduced to 0m or at the very least some given distance (such as 1 km if the restriction is 1m x the lowest Megascale multiplier).
 
Using that interpretation you probably want a multiplier that is lower than your nearest tube. In the case of a Justice League teleporter you would want a multiplier of 10,000 km since your closest tube would be about 35,000 km away (the height of an object in geosynchronous orbit and incidentally a problem with the current build of 1m with 10,000 km of Megascale). Quite likely you would want a multiplier of only 1000 km (or possibly even 100 km) so you could have tubes nearer to each other, though you could always get by with a trip up to the station and then back down to another tube which is only 100m away from the first tube.
 
There's a couple of other minor things that you probably also need to buy. As people have said you probably want no relative velocity since people landing will have a fairly significant velocity change over the station's. Position change is also probably necessary or else people teleporting to the opposite side of the planet are literally going to end up on their heads (unless they start the trip standing on their head). Then you also probably need to purchase Usable on others (since it isn't the base itself that's teleporting), quite likely as an attack, and probably with no range modifiers.

[bigbywolfe]

There is not an interpretation issue.  What you quoted is just straight up wrong because Steve copy and pasted from 5E even though the rule had changed.  Megascale Teleport can be scaled down and it doesn't matter if it is to a fixed location, a floating location, or just a wild jump "that direction".  

[esampson]

Why would such a rule exist in 5th edition? For one thing it is redundant since you already wouldn't be able to teleport a distance less than your multiple since MegaScale worked differently in 5th. For another thing why would it even mention fixed and floating locations since the rule actually applies to all teleporting?

 

This isn't to say it's not possible that it is an error caused by cut and paste but can you point me to an errata or statement by Steve or something similar?

[Hyper-Man]

from the 5e (not 5er) FAQ
http://www.herogames.com/rulesFAQ.htm?ruleset=Hero+System+Fifth+Edition&section=&keywords=teleportation&dateString=

*Link soon to go away with site changes by Simon.
 

Using a search term of Teleportation

Q: If a character has MegaScaled Teleportation, and a Fixed Location, but the Fixed Location is closer than the shortest increment of his MegaScaling, can he still Teleport to it?

 

A: Technically, no. However, the GM can certainly let common sense trump legalistic rules interpretations if that seems appropriate.

 

[esampson]

Right. I'm not arguing that you weren't able to do that in 5th edition or that the text was copied and pasted (I can see both facts by examining the 5th edition book). What I am saying is that it is possible that it wasn't erroneously copied and pasted and that it is an intentional limitation of MegaScale teleport.

 

For one thing, even in 5th edition revised it seems to be a special case. Either the rule is stating something that doesn't need stating because it is redundant (characters can't teleport distances shorter than their minimum distance if they are teleporting to a fixed or floating location) or else the rule is stating that there is some special restriction to teleporting to fixed or floating locations with MegaScale teleportation.

 

A simple interpretation would be that even if a character has the additional +1/4 advantage to MegaScale they can't teleport to a fixed or floating location (as a fixed or floating location) if they are closer than the normal MegaScale multiplier. The reason for such a ruling might be to deal with the specific work around of purchasing the absolute minimum distance in teleportation with a large multiplier.

 

Assuming that such a special rule was created for 5th edition there is no reason to assume that it might not be placed into 6th edition as well. So while it is easy to look at the rule and assume that it is an error caused by copying and pasting from a previous edition that might not be a correct assumption.

 

Of course I could just as easily be wrong in my assumptions which is why I was asking if there was anything available where Steve Long said that it was a mistake or an errata that said to remove that section.

[bigbywolfe]

In 5th edition it was re-affirming that the general rule about minimum distance for megscale even when fixed and floating locations were involved. To argue that in 6E you can scale magescale back to any distance you want, except when using locations, is...illogical. I'm having trouble coming up with an adjective. It's utterly ridiculous. Considering the changes to megascale, and the plethora of other copy/paste errors (including ones in the megascale section), there is just no merit to holding that position. It makes no sense mechanically or SFX and would be a pointless, stupid, and confusing exception to the rules.

[Hyper-Man]

Now is probably a good time for someone to start a thread in the Rules Forum to ask Steve for clarification.

[esampson]

In 5th edition it was re-affirming that the general rule about minimum distance for megscale even when fixed and floating locations were involved. To argue that in 6E you can scale magescale back to any distance you want, except when using locations, is...illogical. I'm having trouble coming up with an adjective. It's utterly ridiculous. Considering the changes to megascale, and the plethora of other copy/paste errors (including ones in the megascale section), there is just no merit to holding that position. It makes no sense mechanically or SFX and would be a pointless, stupid, and confusing exception to the rules.

It is possible that it was re-affirming a rule about minimum distance, except that if that was the case why was no attempt made to reaffirm the rule for any other form of movement? It would seem just as important to reiterate the rule for superleap. And why does it seem to single out fixed and floating locations rather than addressing teleportation as a whole?

 

Yes, there is an inconsistency in limiting the effect to fixed and floating locations but it doesn't seem to me to be wholly illogical. Characters could still teleport to the location using the rules for non-fixed/floating locations which would include the possibility of misjumping and the use of the MegaScale multiplier when they misjump. The inconsistency might be an artifact added for reasons of balance, making it so that there is a purpose to purchasing multiple meters of teleportation and then more reasonable multiples of MegaScale.

 

Again, this isn't to say that it couldn't be a copy/paste error. It seems highly likely that it is. However, without some kind of ruling from on high I don't think you can say that it is 'definitely' or 'clearly' a copy/paste error. I think that at best all that could be said is that it is 'probably' a copy/paste error.

[Cassandra]

Just for the record, the 5th. Edition Champion Sourcebook has a space base with Megascale Teleport that doesn't follow the rules.

 

Then again, the Character Generated System also violated the rules.