Optical Laser/Epilepsy gun

[WistfulD]

I have a character who wants to make an laser rifle with an optical setting (i.e. one that has to be aimed at the eye, but if it hits can reduce a character to immobility). He also wants to build it as a multipower, having the ability to be an AVAD Blast as well as a Mental Entangle (requiring the layering of a Works Against CON, Not EGO on top of a Works Against EGO, Not STR effect). The thing is that he wants it to be specially sighted for aiming at the eyes for these things (maybe the lower power requirement of the optical laser means that it makes a much larger beam than the damaging laser setting), so that the hit bonus is part of the power within the power framework.

 

Here is what I have:

Multipower: 76 Active Points, all powers have beam (-1/4), OAF(-1), real weapon (-1/4) (30 Real Points)

2f Damaging laser setting RKA (energy) 3D6 (Active Points); beam (-1/4), OAF(-1), real weapon (-1/4) (18 Real Points)

 

2f Optical Stunner -- Blast 6D6 (30 Base Points); AVAD (Flash Defense: Vision; +1) (60 Active Points); Alternate Defense (Blind, Covering Eyes; -½), Beam (-1/4), Limitation (must hit eyes; -1), OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (15 Real Points) plus +8 PSL (To Hit specific location, head only) (16 Active Points); Beam (-1/4), OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (6 Real Points)

 

 2f Epilepsy Ray -- Entangle (3D6 Body, 3 Mental Defense; 30 Base Points) ACV:--None, mental attacks get ACV(OMCV instead of OCV), but mind-effecting weapons tend to be mental powers with ACV (OCV instead of OMCV), so it's a wash, (+/-0); Takes No Damage From Attacks (Mental Attacks, also Cured By Standard Treatment for Visually-Induced Epilepsy; +3/4), Works Against Con, not Ego, not STR (+1/4) (60 Active Points); Alternate Defense (Blind, Covering Eyes; -½), Beam (-1/4), Limitation (must hit head; -1), OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (15 Real Points) plus +8 PSL (To Hit specific location, head only) (16 Active Points); Beam (-1/4), OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (6 Real Points)

 

The overall effect isn't overpowered, and the having to hit the head, but then getting a +8 to do so is actually more expensive then having neither requirement nor bonus in place (it does garauntee a x2 stun mod for the blast though). My question is whether I've done it right.

 

[Grailknight]

I think your math checks out fine but as a GM, I wouldn't allow this power as constructed.

 

While not overpowered in a 60 AP game, the 2nd and 3rd powers violate the rules and spirit of the game.

 

In order for (must hit eyes) to have any point value, it has to actually be limiting. Buying PSL"s to counter the hit location modifier negates this. It's also not more expensive. That's an illusion caused by all the other modifiers stacked on.

 

Strip them off and you get:

 

6d6 Blast, AVAD +1(60 active points) - (must hit eyes) -1 (30 real)  +8 PSL's (16 active and real points) . A 14 real points savings hidden in the other fluff.

 

Lastly Hit Locations are not used in superheroic games so no 2x STUN. For space opera/future tech gear would have the real weapon by default.

 

I would allow these powers without the limitation/PSL's combo. The Blind/covered eyes is a valid limitation for negating a power with this special effect.

 

 

PS: RAW you cannot place PSL's in a framework but that's a minor nitpick that most GM's will handwave if you ask nicely.

[Hyper-Man]

The fact that he's using the Real Weapon Limitation indicates that this is for a Heroic Level game.

 

Here's how I would build such an effect using the Stunning option for Change Environment from APG1.

 

14 Optic Stunner: Change Environment (-4 to Characteristic Roll or Skill Roll, Long-Lasting 1 Turn, Stunning), Area Of Effect (16m Cone; +1/2), Thin Cone (-1/4) (55 Active Points); OAF (-1), No Range (-1/2), Limited Power Only vs. Targets able to see Character via visible light (-1/2), Instant (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), Can Be Deflected (-1/4), 2 clips of 16 Charges (Increased Reloading Time: 2 Full Phases; -0)

[Notes: From APG1 page 83 - The Stunned effect lasts as long as the Change Environment is maintained (1 Turn*). However, when affected the victim gets to make a CON Roll immediately (at -4*), and if the roll succeeds the attack has no effect on him. If the roll fails, he gets to make an additional CON Roll every Phase he’s affected at a cumulative +1 (so +1 on his second roll, +2 on his third, and so on). As soon as any roll succeeds, the power immediately stops affecting him and he has his full Phase in which to act.] - END=[16]

[Sean Waters]

Is this a real weapon?

[WistfulD]

Well, I'm trying to start with RAW, and GM-fiat/hand-wave on an exception by exception basis, so let me know where the flaws are.

 

Grailknight: I didn't see where PSLs weren't allowed in a framework, where is the reference for that? You're also saying that the limitations would not apply to the PSLs, not even OAF? Is that the case with any bonus to hit (both not allowed in a framework and no points for limitations)? Straight up +1 OCV? +1 vs range modifier?

 

"In order for (must hit eyes) to have any point value, it has to actually be limiting"

 

Well, I wouldn't actually give them a +8, but the point stands. However, if you are requiring them to take a -8 to hit, then it is a limitation, even if you also purchase in the package a bonus to offset it.

 

Hyper-Man: That's certainly a possibility, although I am in general an adherent to the "don't use CE if another power can create the same effect" school of thought. I am confused, however, by the interaction between the Instant (-1/2) limitation and "The Stunned effect lasts as long as the Change Environment is maintained (1 Turn*)". Doesn't that directly contradict the concept of instant? I would think continuing charges and Uncontrolled would be required.

 

Sean: It is an actual object. Hyper-man points out that this is a heroic game. Apparently real weapon doesn't apply. Not surprising that I wouldn't know that, we don't normally purchase equipment with points (this is because he is purchasing SWAT-grade black market tech).

[Grailknight]

PSL's count as Skills. When Skills are bought as a power, they are classified as Special Powers. Special Powers cannot be placed in Frameworks without GM permission.( CC, p.50)

 

Limitations cannot be applied to Skills that cost less than 3 point's per level.(CC, p.27)  RAW, you could put on a Limitation, if you bought the PSL's at the 3 point level with all your character's attacks.

 

I would omit the (must hit eyes) and the PSL's from the power(and would require it as a GM). It's just part of the special effect of the power and well covered conceptually by the (not vs blind or covered eyes) limitation. 

[WistfulD]

PSL's count as Skills. When Skills are bought as a power, they are classified as Special Powers. Special Powers cannot be placed in Frameworks without GM permission.( CC, p.50)

 

Limitations cannot be applied to Skills that cost less than 3 point's per level.(CC, p.27)  RAW, you could put on a Limitation, if you bought the PSL's at the 3 point level with all your character's attacks.

 

I would omit the (must hit eyes) and the PSL's from the power(and would require it as a GM). It's just part of the special effect of the power and well covered conceptually by the (not vs blind or covered eyes) limitation. 

 

Of course they're skills! That was the glaringly obvious part I was missing.

 

Limitations on skills, hmmm. Is that why guns with an RMod are normally built with +1 to hit with a limitation (only to negate range penalties) instead of a PSL?

 

I guess the not blind/eye cover does, well, cover it. That, plus it deletes the bad form of including multiple limitations that overlap (I think of covering the eyes as an active action, but having their head be out of your frame of fire definitely should count).  

 

So here is a revision:

 

Multipower: 60 Active Points, all powers have beam (-¼), OAF(-1) (27 Real Points)

--2f Damaging laser setting RKA (energy) 3D6 (45 Active Points); beam (-¼), OAF(-1) (20 Real Points)

--2f Optical Stunner -- Blast 6D6 (30 Base Points); AVAD (Flash Defense: Vision; +1) (60 Active Points); Alternate Defense (Blind, Covering Eyes; -½), Beam (-¼), OAF (-1) (22 Real Points)

--2f Epilepsy Ray -- Entangle (3D6 Body, 3 Mental Defense; 30 Base Points) ACV:--None, mental attacks get ACV(OMCV instead of OCV), but mind-effecting weapons tend to be mental powers with ACV (OCV instead of OMCV), so it's a wash, (+/-0); Takes No Damage From Attacks (Mental Attacks, also Cured By Standard Treatment for Visually-Induced Epilepsy; +¾), Works Against Con, not Ego, not STR (+¼) (60 Active Points); Alternate Defense (Blind, Covering Eyes; -½), Beam (-¼), OAF (-1) (22 Real Points)

 

Anything else I am missing?

Does OAF supercede restainable?

What are the rules on Strength Minimums for weapons that don't add damage? Straight - 1/4? -0?

Anything else that should be added for weapons?

+1 OCV and +1 RMod would be (respectively):

+1 OCV (5 Active Points);  OAF (-1) (2 Real Points)

+1 OCV (5 Active Points); OAF (-1) Limitation (Only to Counter Range Penalties; -1/2) (2 Real Points)

or would they also get beam, str min, etc?

 

P.S. Equipment is hard! No wonder we use cash most of the time!

Edited February 11, 2015 by WistfulD

[Hyper-Man]

..

 

Hyper-Man: That's certainly a possibility, although I am in general an adherent to the "don't use CE if another power can create the same effect" school of thought. I am confused, however, by the interaction between the Instant (-1/2) limitation and "The Stunned effect lasts as long as the Change Environment is maintained (1 Turn*)". Doesn't that directly contradict the concept of instant? I would think continuing charges and Uncontrolled would be required.

 

..

 

By default Change Environment is a Constant Power.  Without taking the Instant Limitation it would technically not require a further attack roll to affect a target again on future Phases even if they have succeeded at their CON roll.  As built the Long Lasting Adder within the CE build makes the charges effectively Continuing.  Instant plus Long Lasting also means that if Charges were not involved that it would be a fire & forget effect similar to Entangles and Barriers.

 

Here is an alternate build that uses Continuing Charges instead of Long Lasting:

 

20 Optic Stunner v2: Change Environment (-6 to Characteristic Roll or Skill Roll, Stunning), Area Of Effect (16m Cone; +1/2), Thin Cone (-1/4) (60 Active Points); OAF (-1), No Range (-1/2), Limited Power Only vs. Targets Looking at Character (-1/2), 4 clips of 6 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (Increased Reloading Time: 2 Full Phases; -0)

[Notes: From APG1 page 83 - The Stunned effect lasts as long as the Change Environment is maintained (1 Turn*). However, when affected the victim gets to make a CON Roll immediately (at -6*), and if the roll succeeds the attack has no effect on him. If the roll fails, he gets to make an additional CON Roll every Phase he’s affected at a cumulative +1 (so +1 on his second roll, +2 on his third, and so on). As soon as any roll succeeds, the power immediately stops affecting him and he has his full Phase in which to act.] - END=[6 cc]

 

[Sean Waters]

It is worth noting that the ability to stun someone is a very powerful effect and can have a dramatic effect on combat, especially if the team has any tactical sense, and especially in Hero where there is no penalty for switching targets.  

 

Whilst I like having all sorts of things in the toolkit, Stunning is something of an issue because the degree to which it scales is very limited and the defences are extremely unusual, or at least unusual at the level at which they would be useful: in a 60 point per power game, I'd not expect many CON scores over 30, so the chances of avoiding the effect that Hyper-Man has built  is limited: it is AOE so DCV does not help and the chances of shaking off the effect immediately, even if you have 30 CON is 9 or less on 3d6, and less if your CON is lower: probably 8 or less is an average.

 

In addition, Stunning is AON, All or Nothing, which again raises concerns whenever it appears.

 

As a GM I would be very wary of something like this, either because it would tend to knock out opponents too quickly to be fun or would mean having to introduce some plot explaining why it does not work as often as it probably should, and deliberately nerfing a power that way always leaves a bad taste.  Either of these approaches makes the GM's job more difficult and the GM is already working harder than anyone else.  OTOH it would be fine as a specific villain power: a specific villain is not going to be in every session, unless it is a very unusual game.  This may sound unfair, but it isn't, because fairness is not the issue, enjoyment of the game is.

 

As this is an optical laser, you might want to either add "requires target to have normal vision" either as a separate limitation or as an adjunct to "must be looking at character": I could be looking at the character with my sonar.  The fact that it should be implicit from the power name/concept means nothing.

[Hyper-Man]

I guess I don't understand the big perception of difference between Stunning a target vs. immobilizing them via an Entangle.  It's just 1 of many mechanical methods to setup a target for more lasting followup actions.  A character with a Martial Trip maneuver can do the same thing.

[Grailknight]

I guess I don't understand the big perception of difference between Stunning a target vs. immobilizing them via an Entangle.  It's just 1 of many mechanical methods to setup a target for more lasting followup actions.  A character with a Martial Trip maneuver can do the same thing.

 

If a character is Entangled, they still have their defenses and can act to use their powers to escape. You still have some control.

 

The Stunning CE is really an NND Entangle where the defense is a die roll. The chances of a bad roll are usually higher and even if they aren't mathematically, they are psychologically. 

[WistfulD]

If a character is Entangled, they still have their defenses and can act to use their powers to escape. You still have some control.

 

The Stunning CE is really an NND Entangle where the defense is a die roll. The chances of a bad roll are usually higher and even if they aren't mathematically, they are psychologically. 

 

That's not that different from a mental entangle, which also is defeated by a die roll (presence), except when you can destroy the entangle with a mental attack. What really messes with things is how easily, and cheaply, CE can add penalties to attribute rolls (which will almost always be in a relatively small range). This is why GM control of CE is vital.

[WistfulD]

As a GM I would be very wary of something like this, either because it would tend to knock out opponents too quickly to be fun or would mean having to introduce some plot explaining why it does not work as often as it probably should, and deliberately nerfing a power that way always leaves a bad taste.  Either of these approaches makes the GM's job more difficult and the GM is already working harder than anyone else.  OTOH it would be fine as a specific villain power: a specific villain is not going to be in every session, unless it is a very unusual game.  This may sound unfair, but it isn't, because fairness is not the issue, enjoyment of the game is.

 

As this is an optical laser, you might want to either add "requires target to have normal vision" either as a separate limitation or as an adjunct to "must be looking at character": I could be looking at the character with my sonar.  The fact that it should be implicit from the power name/concept means nothing.

 

If the GM has to nerf it, they probably shouldn't have allowed it as-is in the first place.

 

The optical laser already has, " Alternate Defense (Blind, Covering Eyes; -½), " I think that covers what you are talking about. Now it is using light pulses to induce seisures, so simply having sonar won't make you immue, you have to cover your eyes. I guess I could add "requires target to have vertibrate-normal optical-neural architecture, such that light pulses might induce epilepsy, but that seems like milking the disadvantage chart for all it is worth.

[Greywind]

That's not that different from a mental entangle, which also is defeated by a die roll (presence), except when you can destroy the entangle with a mental attack. What really messes with things is how easily, and cheaply, CE can add penalties to attribute rolls (which will almost always be in a relatively small range). This is why GM control of CE is vital.

 

What does Pre have to do with mental?

[WistfulD]

What does Pre have to do with mental?

 

Whoops! Ego. It's Ego you use to break a mental entangle.