Autofire and Switching MP Slots

[Col. Orange]

Ravenstorm, wing-ed vigilante, has a multipower consisting of various mini-grenades – glue, flash, thermite (you get the idea).

If he buys Autofire[3] on each Slot he can now lob 3 of ONE type of mini-grenade per phase (phase one he throws three smoke bombs, phase two three thermite, etc).

If he buys the Autofire on the Reserve instead, can he now switch slots with the phase (phase one he throws one smoke bomb, one thermite and one glue)? Rules wise, I think the guy would need to buy Variable Slots but it doesn’t feel right (Why’s the thermite suddenly burning less hot? Why’s the smoke cloud smaller than usual?).

Would you guys allow him to mix and match?

[Aroooo]

Not in a multipower. But, if the MP pool has enough points to power multiple slots in the same phase, just do it as a multiple power attack - i.e. you'd get two autofire shots off, one smoke, one Glue, each lobbing 3 rounds (for a total of 6) at the target.

 

Aroooo

[Dust Raven]

You could also skip the Autofire and use the Rapid Fire maneuver instead (perhaps also buying the Rapid Attack Skill). Then all you need to do is make sure all the different typs of grenades are available. You could build them through an Elemental Control and then Rapid Fire different types (you can't multiple power attack, but I can't find anything that says you can't rapid fire).

[Farkling]

I believe Rapid Fire is intended for the SAME power use, not a clever way to get around Elemental Control Multiple Attack restrictions.

[Farkling]

Okay...if the Multipower contains Ultra Slots with Autofire, each Ultra Slot can Autofire

 

MPower (60)

u (2d6 RKA, Explosion, Autofire)

u (3d6 Entangle, Explosion, Autofire)

u (6d6 Flash, Explosion, Autofire)

By the book, he can only afford to have one slot active. So he can only Autofire from the specific slot.

 

60 Mpower (30) (Explosion, Autofire)

u (2d6 RKA)

u (3d6 Entangle)

u (6d6 Flash)

Technically, this multipower functions in the same manner. Again, only one slot can be active. I do not believe Autofire allows for "multiple reserve allocations"

Now, let us consider the FAQ...

 

Q: Can a character apply an Advantage or Limitation to just the Multipower reserve, such as Extra Time to switch slots?

 

A: With the GM’s permission, yes, provided it makes sense to do so. Extra Time only to switch slots is a good example; there’s no reason such a Limitation would apply to each slot (once the character switches to it, he can activate the power in that slot normally). The GM can, if he wishes, alter the value of the Power Modifier if he thinks that’s appropriate for the power construct.

 

Q: In the case of Advantages applied just to the reserve, to affect all the slots, do they affect the cost of each slot? For example, would the ultra slots in a 50-point reserve Multipower with Personal Immunity (+1/4) on the reserve cost 5 points (50/10) or 6 points (62/10).

 

A: The cost of the Advantage isn’t applied to the slots; in the situation described, each slot would cost 5, with the Personal Immunity still applying to each. That’s why the text so strongly cautions GMs to be careful about allowing this; while there are some power constructs for which it might be valid, usually it’s best for characters to buy an Advantage that applies to each slot separately for each slot. That’s certainly the approach taken by published Hero products.

 

Q: Is it possible for a character to have an Advantage on a Multipower reserve, then apply a larger version of the same Advantage to a slot by paying only for the difference on the slot? For example, could a character apply Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) to the reserve (and thus to all slots), and then make one slot cost 0 END by paying the additional +1/4 on it to make it the same as having Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2)?

 

A: As a default rule, a character cannot do this; he’d have to pay for the full cost of the larger value of the Advantage on the slot. However, the GM can allow this if he feels it wouldn’t cause game balance problems or otherwise negatively impact the game.

 

THe FAQ says..."it's your game, do what you want"

Your player wants to trade his Autofire for a one shot of each power. That's a Multiple Power Attack that he cannot pony up the points for. If your players are kosher with that, then fine. At the LEAST I would require him to pony up for variable slots. By the book, if he runs each slot at 1/3rd power, he cannot voluntarily suppress the Autofire advantage for more damage.

 

So, there are three options.

1) Additional multipower slot

2) Increased Reserve to use all three slots at once

3) Limited Reserve points that lock out the Autofire advantage (iffy by the FAQ)

 

1) Let's see

2d6 RKA + 3d6 Entangle + 6d6 Flash = 90 points. SIngle Target.

Kind of big for the 60 point multipower supposed.

 

1d6+1 RKA + 2d6 Entangle + 4d6 Flash = 60 points. Single Target. Going off all together interfere's with the grenade deployment....

 

2) Buy reserve to enough points to activate all slots. Blah. That's big and expensive.

 

3) Reserve (+120) - locks out Explosion and Autofire advantages (-1/2), Concentrate 1/2 DCV Throughout (-1/2), Only for MPA. Then he can MPA with all three grenades. Questionable HERO from the creator, but it seems to guage the price of what he wants.

 

4) Hmmm. Buy the combos outside of the Multipower to exceed the Multipower limit.

MPA Attack combos

2d6 RKA+3d6 Entangle+6d6 Flash, Explosion

(30*1.5/2) + (30*1.5/2.5) + (30*1.5/2.5)

Locks out Multipower (-1/2)

Concentrate 1/2 DCV throughout (-1/2)

22 + 18 + 18 = 58. Option 3 weighs in at 60 pts.

Must be comparable to what he wants then.

 

**As GM you could invoke it this way::

He pays for Autofire on the Multipower Reserve (in addition to Autofire on the SLOTS)

Convert the Ultra slots to Variable Slots.

As a house rule, since all the slots have the same level of Autofire, he can choose one shot from each and use them as an MPA. I imagine that is comparably priced also. 30 pts to add Autofire to a 60 pt reserve, and at least 18 points to convert three ultras to three variables.

 

Your player should be charged heavily. The multipower framework is used to cheaply get variable attacks. Now your player essentially desires the full funcional Multiple Power Attacks of the a PC that PAID FULL PRICE for his multiple powers.

[trechriron]

Originally posted by Farkling

 

...Your player should be charged heavily. The multipower framework is used to cheaply get variable attacks. Now your player essentially desires the full funcional Multiple Power Attacks of the a PC that PAID FULL PRICE for his multiple powers. [/b]

 

Well analysed Farkling! Holy Cow, do you do private consultations? How much to fly you in?

 

The whole point of a consistent point based rules set is to be able to ballpark what a "so-and-so" piont character is capable of. In Hero, that ballpark is generally closer to the effectiveness of the character than many point based systems.

 

The Multi Pools can get abusive and you have to be careful what impact that is going to have on the overall power level of the game. You are essentially trying to give away stuff that is actually more effective than the cost.

 

I would not allow this on the multiple powers in that fashion. I think you should make a seperate fourth power that encompasses the autofire shot with three different types of attacks. I imagine linking them to the same OAF or even real weapon could be appropriate.

 

Just my two cents...

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by Farkling

I believe Rapid Fire is intended for the SAME power use, not a clever way to get around Elemental Control Multiple Attack restrictions.

 

You you can use it to perform different Martial Arts Maneuver, why not different ranged attacks as well?

[pinecone]

I beleive that you can use multiple ranged...just not multiple slots in a multi...if you want to be able to lob multiple types of grenades buy them straight out...then you may use them as you wish,if you want to save buckets of points then there is a small downside.....points is points.,...

[Farkling]

Let me get this straight...I cannot use a Multiple Power Attack from my Elemental Control, but I CAN Rapid Fire two seperate powers from my Elemental Control?

 

I'll have to look that up in my book, and then I think I am going to be forced to ask Steve for a clarification.

 

Wait...I'll check the FAQ

Multiple-Power Attacks

 

Q: What is the definition of an Attack Power for purposes of not using “the same Power to attack more than once per Phase?†The example of Martial Disarm and Legsweep being combined in a multiple-Power attack suggests that STR is not considered a single Power for this purpose. If this is the case, is any individually named Maneuver based on STR considered a separate Power for multiple-Power attacks?

 

A: Maneuvers based on STR count as separate Powers provided their effects are reasonably distinguishable. A Maneuver that causes damage (such as Legsweep) is reasonably distinguishable from one using the Exert basis (such as Martial Disarm) in most instances. Two Maneuvers that simply cause damage (Strike and Martial Strike, for example) generally are not, but the GM should make that call based on the characters, the situation, and other such factors.

If you want to hit a single target multiple times with the same, or two similar, damage-causing Maneuvers or attacks (like Martial Strike and Defensive Strike), usually you should pick one of the maneuvers and use a Sweep (or Rapid Fire, if Ranged attacks are involved). Multiple-Power attacks work best when you combine two different forms of attack to generate an interesting effect, not when you just lump two damaging powers together to cause more damage.

 

Q: Can a character Rapid Fire or Sweep with a multiple-Power attack?

 

A: As a default rule, no; that seems too likely to cause game balance problems or slow down play. But the GM can certainly allow it if he thinks it’s appropriate and fair.

 

Q: Can a character use Rapid Fire to fire two different Ranged weapons, one in each hand, the same way he can perform a Sweep with multiple Combat Maneuvers?

 

A: With the GM’s permission, yes.

 

 

Q: Can a character use a slot in a Power Framework as the attack for a Sweep, or as part of a multiple-Power attack?

 

 

 

A: A character could use a Power Framework slot as one of the powers in a multiple-Power attack, provided the following apply: it’s the only power in the Framework used in the attack; the Framework is a Multipower/VPP with enough reserve/pool points to allocate to two or more slots used in the attack simultaneously; the Framework is an EC with two or more Attack Powers.

 

If a character wanted to Sweep with two or more powers in a Power Framework, against either a single target or multiple targets, one of these same three conditions would have to apply.

 

Of course, in either case, the GM should forbid a character to use a power in a Framework as part of a multiple-Power attack or a Sweep if doing so would defy common sense or dramatic sense, or would cause game balance problems. For example, it’s not uncommon for Champions characters to have Multipowers that are essentially a long list of different offensive applications of the same power. Firewing’s Fiery Attacks Multipower, which is just different ways to “tune†or project a bolt of fire, provides a perfect example. In that case, even if the character’s Multipower reserve is large enough to let him use two powers at once, the GM probably should not let him use two slots with a multiple-Power attack or Sweep, since it’s all really “one†power.

 

Hmph. Now I'm more confused. i guess if an EC is considered "one power" you CAN use Rapid Fire with seperate attacks, but Steve says right here "the Framework is an EC with two or more Attack Powers."

Doesn't this contradict FREd....did I miss something?

[Farkling]

You you can use it to perform different Martial Arts Maneuver, why not different ranged attacks as well?

 

You know...it says in the FAQ that the rule is for martial manuevers that are fundamentally the same...ie two seperate Strike manuevers. At least I think so. I have too many expenses and debts to purchase the UMA yet.

[pinecone]

How about this...

Bandolere of grenades: Napalm 2D6 RKA +2 stun mod,Explosion. OIF (bandolere) 8 charges No KB, Full effect Total lims 1 1/2 cost 24

Band of grenades Entangle 4D6 explostion OIF,8 charges cost 30

and Darkness/smoke grenades Change environment -4 Per Long lasting , around 64 radius OR Darkness...but I don't have those rules memorized OIF ,8 charges 30 points Total cost 84 points...thats close to the cost of the Multi-power and now you can multiple power attack all three as you wish, you spent the points so use 'em as you will, if you Rapid attack you have a Autofire effect at a small penalty........