Mental vs. Magic Powers?

[phydaux]

In another thread, I've been debating playing either a mentalist or a mystic. Either character will access their powers via a VPP. Now, according the FREd, Mental Powers Only and Magic Powers Only are both 1/4 Disadds on the Control Poll cost.

 

Here's my question:

 

Mental Powers Only is easy - Ego Blast, Ming Control, Mental Illusions, Mental Awareness for free, etc.. The problem is the Magic Powers Only Disadd. What powers are precluded?

 

Here's my thought on the matter - If there's a spell for it in the D&D Players Handbook, then it's a magic power. This would include powers like Invisibility, Flight, Teleport, Sleep (an Ego Blast), Fire Ball (EB AOE), Lightning Bolt (AP EB), Power Work Kill (RKA), Magic Missile (Autofire EB) and also Telepathy, Control Others (Mind Control), the list goes on.

 

It seems Magic Powers Only doesn't limit the power selection at all.

 

So I was trying to come up with a way for Magic Powers Only to actually BE a limitation.

 

My first idea is this - No Mental Awareness for free, even though the character has access to mental powers via the VPP. This doesn't preclude the mystic from using VPP points to buy Mental Awareness for a little while. The character just doesn't get it all the time for no point cost.

 

The second idea is this - Make the player come up with a "Spell Book." Even though the character can change powers in the pool during combat with a Magic skill roll, the player will only be able to select from powers pre-approved by the GM and listed on the back of the character sheet. All spell effects must be listed, both meta-game AND special effect. So the player can't just write "Energy Blast." He has to have Energy Blast - Fire, Energy Blast - Cold, Energy Blast - Lightning.

 

Moreover, every spell will have to be named. So rather than just Energy Blast - Fire it will have to be "Breath of the Balrog" and so on.

 

Any power that isn't listed in the Spell Book at the start of the gaming session, or any power without the desired special effect that isn't listed, can't be used that session. The player will have to add it to the list when the character gets the free time to "research the spell."

 

Now, I know what you're thinking:

 

"phy, I could sit down and rattle off at least a HUNDRED poweres with various special effects in about fifteen mineuts."

 

Well, I'm glad you can. In fact, I'd be DELIGHTED if ANY of MY players put more thought into a character beyond "Do I want a Hulk clone or a Batman clone?" Putting this much thought into the character and the character's background is well worth -1/4 on the VPP Control Cost, in my not-so-humble oppinion.

 

What do you all think?

[caris]

Well, since mental powers would include such things as psychokenisis, and all the other kenisises. I would say that mental powers are about equally limited as magic powers. The primary effect would be that all of the powers would probably be targetable by simillar adjustment powers, or other powers that are built to defend, or target against a specific SFX.

 

PS - I wouldn't give the mental VPP Mental Awareness for free.

[Monolith]

It seems Magic Powers Only doesn't limit the power selection at all.

Mental Powers are not that limiting either. You have all the standard ECV powers, then you have all the powers with the BoECV Advantage, then you have just about anything else you might think of to fit the SFX:

 

Armor? Mental Shields which do not collapse when knocked out. Change Enviroment? A field that makes the characters mentally feeble. Clairsentience? Mental Distance Sight. Darkness? Mentally making people who enter an area unable to see. Desolidification? Astral Body. Drain? Mental Barrier Blast. Duplification? Mental Energy Self. Energy Blast? Distruptive Mental Force. Entangle? Mental Paralysis. Extra-Dimensional Movement? Shift into the Mental or Astral Plane. Extra Limbs? Psychic Limbs. Find Weakness? Mental Chink. Flash? Sensory Disruption. Force Field/Force Wall? Mental Barriers. Healing? Psychic Healing. Images? Mass Illusion. Invisibility? Sensory Manipulation. HKA? Psychic Blade. RKA? Psychic Blast. Luck? Psychic Manipulation. Missile Deflection? Telekinetic Shields. Shape Shift? Sensory Manipulation. Summon? Animal Control. Suppress? Mental Blockers. Telekinesis? Very common. Teleportation? Astral Bridge. Transfer? Psychic Leech. Transform? Mental Surgeon.

 

So as you can see, depending on the imagination almost every possible power can be considered Mental in pretty much the same fashion that any power can be considered Mystic.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Caris picked up on a big factor why "magic powers only" can receive a -1/4 Limitation - every Power in the VPP, and the Pool itself, could be subject to Adjustment Powers vs. the Magic special effect, defenses bought as "anti-magic", etc.

 

As to what powers couldn't be magic - well, not too many, really. I have a hard time envisioning HRRP as a traditional magic power, but it would be fine for an arcanotech character. FTL is an odd magical effect, but it might fit for a mage in a cosmic/far future campaign.

 

Your idea of the spellbook has some merit, as it adds flavor to the game and makes the character more distinctive, but it does take away some from the big advantage of a VPP - to do whatever one wants within the defined effects/Limitations and tailor one's powerset to a given situation.

[jnormandin]

I LIKE the idea of playing a magic VPP this way. The spellbook takes alot of the playing with a book and calculator during the game out of the picture.

 

Also... I agree wholeheartedly that a mental vpp is more limited than a magic vpp. Teleport, desolidification, life support, shape shifting, etc are all things you can't do with a mental vpp but can drop into a magic vpp without blinking an eye.

[caris]

Originally posted by jnormandin

Also... I agree wholeheartedly that a mental vpp is more limited than a magic vpp. Teleport, desolidification, life support, shape shifting, etc are all things you can't do with a mental vpp but can drop into a magic vpp without blinking an eye.

 

Teleport - a standard variation on psychokenisis.

 

Desolidfication – could be a form of biokenisis, astral projection, or even psychokenetic extra-dimensional movement.

 

Life Support – various forms of biokenisis, psychokenetic force fields maintaining a bubble of air, psychokentic attacks against diseases, etc.

 

Shape Shift – well the new vs. senses things makes a gaurenteed form of limited mental illusions a possibility, shape shift vs. the mental sense group, or once again biokenisis.

 

Edit to add - all of these are stunts that I've seen various psionic characters use in various source materials.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Originally posted by jnormandin

I LIKE the idea of playing a magic VPP this way. The spellbook takes alot of the playing with a book and calculator during the game out of the picture.

 

Also... I agree wholeheartedly that a mental vpp is more limited than a magic vpp. Teleport, desolidification, life support, shape shifting, etc are all things you can't do with a mental vpp but can drop into a magic vpp without blinking an eye.

 

Teleport: Mental control over space/time, or break body down into molecules and move with TK. Heck, Astral Project and use subatomic telekinesis to create a new body. Out of pure mental energy if necessary.

 

Desolidification: Well, obv Astral Form. Also said TK trick from above.

 

Life Support: Biokinetic rejuvenation (Aging, toxins, disease, sleep, etc). Telekinetic recycling (Food, etc). Telekinetic Shields (radiation, temps, toxins, disease, etc).

 

Shapeshifting: Biokinesis.

 

Simply put: Mental Powers *without* telekinesis and it's tricks is more limited. *With* Telekinesis, it isn't. Both are worth, at most, -1/4.

[Lightray]

I've been running a campaign with comic-style magicians for a while, and I've always felt that it's better to start off with a multipower which could later get converted into a VPP, rather than going with the VPP from the beginning. That lets you find out that Circe tends to favor transformation and blast 'em spells, while the White Magus prefers telekinetic and entangle spells. You know what your magician's style is.

 

However, if you're starting out with a VPP, you need to define what your magician's style of magic is. Dr. Fate and Dr. Strange use different spells; Dr. Fate has his ankh-bolts and Dr. Strange has his Crimson Bands of Cytorrak.

 

It is not easy to come up with a comic-style of magic, so I tend to cheat and steal from real magical traditions. I've been using Hermetic magic for inspiration lately, with lots of calling upon the names of Planetary Spirits and elemental effects. But if your heroine is Russian, there should be lots of folk stories to draw from to choose what spells belong within your Limitation and what spells don't.

 

FWIW, it seems to me that Russian folk magic is not at all subtle, and usually over-the-top. I'd think BIG: turn your body into the wind, reassemble yourself after being chopped into pieces, call up swarms of birds or insects, change shape, transform others, grow roses or thorns to entrap enemies. Add in a few minor powers outside the VPP for flavor: speak to animals or birds, see invisible things, travel to the Otherworld.

 

For that type of magic style, I'd avoid Invisible Power Effects and other subtle powers, and I'd give the simpler powers like Energy Blast and Telekinesis wild special effects ("I conjure up a swarms of bees that sting my enemy or carry him away").

 

On Champions magicians in general, I'd advise going with some of the rarer Advantages - Affects Desolidified, Transdimensional, Line Of Sight, and the like. They're often not taken by other supertypes, and can reflect the extra skill with their powers mystics so often are supposed to have.

[jnormandin]

Well they shut me up!

[phydaux]

Originally posted by jnormandin

I LIKE the idea of playing a magic VPP this way. The spellbook takes alot of the playing with a book and calculator during the game out of the picture.

 

The only other player I've ever seen play a VPP mage didn't know a THING about the game rules. the party would get into situations and he'd sit there, stumped for what to do. Or he'd come up with an idea and it would be up to the GM and the other players to tell him how to do it in the VPP.

 

I recommended several times that he write up several "stock" spells just so he'd have the math taken care of in advance. He';s balk and say "No, that's too limiting. The character makes up the spells on the fly..."

 

Yeah, the character could do that, too bad the player couldn't.

[Lightray]

Originally posted by phydaux

I recommended several times that he write up several "stock" spells just so he'd have the math taken care of in advance. He';s balk and say "No, that's too limiting. The character makes up the spells on the fly..."

Even with experienced players it is absolutely necessary that someone with a VPP has things written up beforehand. I'll allow my players to handwave the little things (conjuring up food, changing everyones clothes, etc.). But ALL of the big powers need to be statted up beforehand.

 

I'm not really against VPPs -- I just think they allow you to be lazy when making up your character. A multipower forces you to think about what spells you're going to need. I've allowed players with experienced supermages to later convert their multipower points into a VPP.

 

Another thing to remember with VPP characters: sometimes you fail that roll to change your pool points. Inevitably, this seems to happen at the most critical point possible. Don't be a cheap when it comes to buying that Power Skill.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Originally posted by Lightray

Even with experienced players it is absolutely necessary that someone with a VPP has things written up beforehand. I'll allow my players to handwave the little things (conjuring up food, changing everyones clothes, etc.). But ALL of the big powers need to be statted up beforehand.

 

I'm not really against VPPs -- I just think they allow you to be lazy when making up your character. A multipower forces you to think about what spells you're going to need. I've allowed players with experienced supermages to later convert their multipower points into a VPP.

 

Another thing to remember with VPP characters: sometimes you fail that roll to change your pool points. Inevitably, this seems to happen at the most critical point possible. Don't be a cheap when it comes to buying that Power Skill.

 

I have *never* had a VPP with skill roll. Cosmic or Nothing...

 

 

I don't like dice.

[zornwil]

To me, one way to limit magic powers, along with what's been said about creating the list ahead of time which is traditional and proven (basically), is to also ensure you define the SFX well. If it's good-based or "light-based", for example, maybe there's no overtly destructive powers - all EBs must be stun only, no Drains, etc.. Also, if the characters will travel in many dimensions (or if that's the near-term direction), the form of magic should work differently in the dimensions.

[phydaux]

Originally posted by Lightray

Another thing to remember with VPP characters: sometimes you fail that roll to change your pool points. Inevitably, this seems to happen at the most critical point possible. Don't be a cheap when it comes to buying that Power Skill.

 

Dude, she's a PhD. INT of 23 and Magic skill of 21

[Monolith]

Originally posted by phydaux

Dude, she's a PhD. INT of 23 and Magic skill of 21

That just means a 60 point power gives her a 15- roll! 16s, 17s, and 18s do come up!

[Haerandir]

Originally posted by Lightray

Even with experienced players it is absolutely necessary that someone with a VPP has things written up beforehand. I'll allow my players to handwave the little things (conjuring up food, changing everyones clothes, etc.). But ALL of the big powers need to be statted up beforehand.

 

I agree. And that's coming from someone who is running a character with a VPP. I don't want to ruin everyone's fun by slowing the game down every half hour so I can write up powers. My current GM requires a list of pre-approved powers for VPPs, but even if he didn't I'd have one and wouldn't deviate from it.

 

I'm not really against VPPs -- I just think they allow you to be lazy when making up your character. A multipower forces you to think about what spells you're going to need. I've allowed players with experienced supermages to later convert their multipower points into a VPP.

 

Another good point. Ever since I wrote up Empyrean (my first pure VPP character), I've found that all of my new character concepts consist of a few stats & skills, one or two powers that I'll always want (defenses and movement, mainly), and the rest of the points in a VPP. I'm thinking that I may have to forbid myself to use VPPs for a while.