Problem and Question about artillery attacks.

[TheRealXenocide]

I posted this on the Rules Question board before I read the part about how only Mr. Long could answer those.

 

Oops.

 

Therefore, I'm going to post here, in the hopes of getting thoughts from more people.

 

 

I’m relatively new to non-Fusion Champions. I was reading the 5th Edition book, I ran into something that sparked a question. I was hoping that some of you veterans who own everything Hero could answer it.

 

After reading the 5th edition book’s definition of Indirect, it’s clear that it does not work for creating tube artillery and similar attacks.

 

An artillery shell arcs over top of a wall, missing it entirely. Therefore, it doesn’t matter if the wall is hardened or not, because wall and shell never come into contact. However, if something like a roof gets in the way, the shell will hit it, be it hardened or not.

 

However, as Indirect is defined in the 5th Edition book, hardened matters, and wall vs. roof does not. Therefore, Indirect cannot be used to create a tube artillery type attack.

 

My question is, is there an adder in print somewhere that DOES simulate a tube artillery attack?

[Old Man]

Isn't there a version of Indirect that specifies that the attack always emanates from a particular direction? So for tube artillery that direction would be straight up. If there isn't, I'd say just fudge it and call it a particular subset of Indirect anyway.

[TheRealXenocide]

The problem is in the fact that whether or not Indirect ignores things like walls base on hardness, not location.

 

The way it's written in the big book could be interrupted to allow a wall with hardness stop such an Indirect attack, even if the shot goes OVER THE BLOOD THING! Yet, a unhardened roof can't stop it, even though the roof is IN THE BLOODY WAY!

 

I think you now see the problem.

 

I suppose you could fudge it, but having something in writing would make such an attack easier to use in different with different GMs.

[zornwil]

I think you're misreading it. The "indirect" advantage is from the caster, not from the point of origin to the target. The EB (or whatever attack) coming in still has to travel from its point of origin (whether 3 inches from the target or much further way) in a physical path.

 

The reference to intervening barriers has to do with the barrier between where the power starts and the caster.

[TheRealXenocide]

The first paragraph of the INDIRECT description reads:

 

"A Power with this Advantage ignores or bypasses intervening barriers between the attacker and the target. These intervening barriers include walls, fences, and even Force Walls, but not personal defenses like Force Field or Armor. Barriers purchased with the Power Advantage Hardened affect an Indirect attack normally. Indirect attacks may receive a bonus for surprise the first time they are used against a particular character."

 

That's the whole first paragraph. Now, let's note that one key sentence:

 

"Barriers purchased with the Power Advantage Hardened affect an Indirect attack normally."

 

That's the part that's the potential problem. If it's intended to work like artillery, than why is that sentence there?

[Agent Chains]

Be Flexible

 

The advantage can be a bit confusing at first. I think you have to remember to use a bit of common sense. Using the +1/4 point advantage for arcing your shells over a wall is the same as using the +1/2 indirect to simulate a high tech missle that can steer itself and attack its target from any direction. Just because you have a hardened wall around your base, doesn't mean that my missle can't fly over the wall and land on your head. You see in the above 2 cases you are using indirect to simulate not having a direct straight line to your target, not having an actual different origin of the attack.

 

Now if I was using indirect to simulate my dimensional laser beam that can phase through solid objects and shoot up your base behind your pretty defensive wall, well you would stop me cold. The reason being that I am trying to basically change the point of origin from the tip of my laser cannon to just beyond your wall, with my high tech dimensional warping technology. Your high tech wall would stop that, however(you sneaky bastard).

 

Let's switch to fantasy. Wizard1 casts a 2 hex long, 1 hex high, hardened force wall in front of himself. Wizard2 then smiles and casts Call Lightning from the sky(+1/4 indirect always comes from the sky) and zaps Wizard1 no problem. However, if Wizard2 would have tried to use his lightning bolt spell, in which the lightning always gathers 10 feet in front of him(+1/4 indirect) and then shoots forward, to bypass Wizard1's force wall, then the hardened advantage would come into play stopping the lightning.

 

Am I making sense? A hardened defense will stop an indirect attack only when that attack is trying to simulate going right through the hardened defense. If the indirect attack is going around and therefore not even touching the defense, then the hardened advantage doesn't have a chance to even try and stop the attack.

 

Remember that Hero is a flexible system that relies a lot on how a power in defined by the player and GM as to how it actually works. Hope my rambling has helped some.

[trechriron]

Originally posted by TheRealXenocide

The first paragraph of the INDIRECT description reads:

 

"A Power with this Advantage ignores or bypasses intervening barriers between the attacker and the target. These intervening barriers include walls, fences, and even Force Walls, but not personal defenses like Force Field or Armor. Barriers purchased with the Power Advantage Hardened affect an Indirect attack normally…

 

To add my two cents, you could specify the indirect attack as coming from above, originating from your position. If you were to artillery the invading Martian’s installation with that nifty Hardened transperisteel dome, the dome gets to affect the indirect attack. Note that if it is not a good enough defense that the attack could still affect something under the roof. Consider the round to have exploded on the super cool surface (if I am interpreting this correctly…).

 

If you fire the mortar onto a normal roof, and we determine that a normal roof cannot stop a mortar round, then it simply bypasses the intervening barrier. If you lob it over the wall and there is no barrier, it simply goes boom. Since you are not “firing†the weapon directly at the target and the “path†of that attack does not intervene on a structure above the target, you simply have an indirect attack with no intervening barrier. The wall was not in the way of the attack as it is defined. Just because it CAN bypass an intervening barrier doesn’t mean it MUST bypass SOME barrier. A barrier does not get to jump up and take the place of the missing “required†barrier, nor must you define an attack that only bypasses some required barrier. Indirect also means indirect. Without Indirect, to hit your target, you HAVE to shoot the thing directly at the target and ANY barrier gets to affect it (yes there is NND, yada yada yada…).

 

If you feel that a normal roof or what not would actually detonate the round or even lessen the effects slightly because of the distance of the explosion from the target, you could take a limitation to that effect basically making the attack less effective than it’s unmodified counterpart. The “real weapon†limitation could apply to it as well.

 

You can explain a hundred powers a hundred different ways. The important thing here is that;

 

1) You feel the “power†you constructed is good representation of what you were trying to accomplish.

2) All the parties involved concur on some level (usually the GM has a bit more fiat in this area than a player, but good GMs discuss things before hand, IMO).

3) There is some quantified mechanical resolution to your “powerâ€. You should have some clear idea of how it is going to work in system terms, what the SFX are in game terms (what it looks like, what it sounds like, the description, the particulars, etc.), and that all parties agree it is equitable.

 

So your character has the Artillery skill with a 14-, you have your mortar described and it does an RKA 3d6 Indirect and you decide it is AP due to the nature of the explosive, it has a -1/4 limitation “will detonate on contact with solid non-hardened surfaces†and the -1/4 real weapon limitation. You roll 3d6, you determine if it hits, and you have a means to determine the damage. You have decided it drops down on the target so you know the nature of the indirect attack and what can stop or affect it. You have yourself a mortar. Make it pretty, describe the boom and whir, make it memorable and the mechanics have helped you quantify your description.

 

Just my interpretation and two cents...

[Farkling]

BINGO.

[Lord Liaden]

I'd say that trechriron is on the right track. Since we're looking at rules wording here, I hope you won't mind my splitting a semantic hair: An Indirect attack can bypass an intervening barrier, unless that barrier has the Hardened Advantage. If there's an opening in the barrier which the Indirect attack can go through, around or over, then the barrier isn't intervening.

 

(Gee, this is like the old days before Steve started answering rules questions: debating the implications of wording in the HERO rules like they were the Dead Sea Scrolls. I kinda miss those days.)

[trechriron]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

I'd say that trechriron is on the right track. Since we're looking at rules wording here, I hope you won't mind my splitting a semantic hair...

 

Split away. I am new to the Hero system and I think your point is more concise. As far as my Dead Sea Scrolls translation hobby, that's for another board... ;-)

 

I have noticed that my veteran Hero players LOVE to debate all the particulars, generally along this vein. It seems to be a right of passage in the Hero circle. I listen on in abject confusion most of the time but my glimpses into this special language are cropping up with alarming frequency! Some day I too will speak fluent Hero, bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaa!

 

In fact I'm working hard on it.