Making permanant powers instant so that you can apply charges

[indy523]

OK so I want to in effect create a Enhance Deadly Aim Spell and translate certain skills to time limited effects for a spell caster.

 

The problem at hand skills and talents are both permanent and constant.  Buying charges that are for limited duration say one turn is not necessary.  So we apply Nonpersistent -1/4L to make it constant and Instant -1/2L, then we can apply a +0A 8 continuing charges, one turn advantage.  And we also need to buy the base level UOO at +1/4A to account for being able to give the power to others i.e. cast it on a weapon.  The GM might also rule that this should be +3/4A (8 recipients +3/4A one at a time, -1/4A, plus +1/4UOO) to do more than one weapon at a time. For this we assume if the spell is cast on a ninth weapon it fades from the first previous one to be fair.

 

I am assuming the above is correct.

 

The usual rote of limitations is gestures -1/4L, incantations -1/4L, IAF Focus -1/2L, Arrangement (you have to put the formula together alchmically in advance -1/4L, Real Spell (spell comes from spell book, etc. if formula is lost one can research, experiment, extort others to get another copy (encompasses all similar limitations to real weapon) -1/4L  Limitations -1&1/2L  We add the -3/4L above for 2&1/4L with a +3/4A

 

So say our power is add +5 combat skill levels to anyone who uses the weapon that this spell is cast on and further lets add one level of Weapon master.  The minimum skill levels are three points (limited group of weapons) and the minimum Weapon master is 12 points (limited weapons)  In the 6e book daggers,  rifles, handguns fall into this area.  This is 15 points for the skill levels and 12 points for the +3DC for weapon master for 27 points.

 

Inherent in this is the limitation on the CSL (Only to improve OCV) which I will arbitrarily grant a -1/2L (Somewhat subjective you could expand it to -1L but I am not).  This is on the 15 points

 

Bought this way the spell is usable only for that weapon type.  Five overall skill levels 8 points x5 for 25 points and the 24 point weapon master talent is 59 points.  This is a spell that can be applied to any weapon.

 

Certain more limitations apply:

* their is the -1/2L on the 35 pt csl as explained above.

*Although the power is broad (spell can be cast on any weapon) it is also limited to that specific weapon so one could argue the broad power has a limitation but I give it -1/4L at best.

 

So this is

                         CSLS

Limited Group 15 pts at +3/4A =  26.25  @ -2&1/4 + 1/2L (2&3/4) = 7 real points

Any Weapon    35 pts at +3/4A = 61.25  @ -2&1/4 + 3/4L (3) = 15 real points

                           Weapon master

Limited Group     12 pts @ 3/4A= 21 @ -2&1/4L + 1/4L (2&1/2L) = 6 real points

Any Weapon        24 pts @ 3/4A= 42 @ -2&1/4L + 1/4L (2&1/2L) =  12 real points

 

So the spell costs 13 points for being able to Bless handguns or any other limited group

and 27 points to affect any weapon at all.  This grants +5 OCV to hit and +1d6 KA or +3DC with the blessed weapon for one turn.

 

Note Weapon master is technically for RKA and HKA attacks only however this could be expanded to weapons that are HTH attacks such as clubs if the GM wills it so.

[DasBroot]

Ow. My head.

 

Why not just create/use "Limited power: Can only be used for (x) turns" and apply it to a UOO?

[DasBroot]

Warning, incoming text block. Warning, incoming text block....

 

Bless Weapon:  (Total: 47 Active Cost, 18 Real Cost) Weapon Master:  +1d6 ([very limited group]), Usable Simultaneously (up to 16 people at once; +3/4), Grantor must grant power one Recipient at a time., Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used (21 Active Points); IAF Arrangement (-3/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Real Spell (-1/4), Limited Power Power loses less than a fourth of its effectiveness (Each target gets one turn use only; -0) (Real Cost: 8) <b>plus</b> +5 with a small group of attacks, Usable Simultaneously (up to 16 people at once; +3/4), Grantor must grant power one Recipient at a time., Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used (26 Active Points); IAF Arrangement (-3/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Real Spell (-1/4), Limited Power Power loses less than a fourth of its effectiveness (Each target gets one turn use only; -0) (Real Cost: 10)

[Chris Goodwin]

Abilities with Charges already are limited to a single Phase, unless they're Continuing or Fuel Charges.  Even if they were already Persistent or Constant.  You don't get to apply Instant or Nonpersistent on top of the Charges Limitation; those are built in.

[Hyper-Man]

The Differing Modifier rules listed in 6e1 page 359 are specifically for creating abilities like this - spells that have different modifiers for the "caster" and the "recipient(s)" of the effects.

 

Instead of using the Weaponmaster Talent I would instead just use the core element used to create it via the Talent Creation examples in 6e1 page 447 (Combat Skill Levels applied only to damage).  Since this arguably should be able to work on ANY weapons (HTH, Ranged, Killing or Normal Damage) I used 10 Point All Combat CSL's as the core basis and went with some custom Limitations on how they can be applied.

 

Example:

30 Bless Weapons - Part 1 (Primary Effect): +9 with All Attacks (90 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1), OIF (Weapon Of Opportunity; -1/2), Must Be Split Proportionately Between Damage & OCV (2/3 for Damage & 1/3 for OCV; -1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4)

[Notes: +3 OCV and +3 DC with weapon cast on. ]
37 CASTING (Bless Weapons) - Part 2 (Casting via Naked Modifier): Usable Simultaneously (all targets standing within 10 meters of Grantor; +1), Grantor can only grant the power to others for up to 30 Active Points of Bless Weapon - Part 1, Persistent (+1/4) (37 Active Points)

[Notes: Correct Endurance cost to caster = 20 END] - END=4
-48 CASTING (Bless Weapons) - Part 3 (Limitations on Primary Effect & Casting via Naked Modifier): (67 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x5 END; Applies only to END cost of Part 2; -2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) for up to 67 Points of Part 1 & Part 2 (via Differing Modifiers)

[Notes: Ignore this END cost.  Only the cost(s) displayed for Parts 1 & 2 matter.  Part 3 is only the discount from Limitations to be applied to the entire build.] - END=35
 

Final Real Cost = 19

(30 + 37 - 48 = 19)

 

HM

[Hugh Neilson]

Abilities with Charges already are limited to a single Phase, unless they're Continuing or Fuel Charges.  Even if they were already Persistent or Constant.  You don't get to apply Instant or Nonpersistent on top of the Charges Limitation; those are built in.

Much like you don't get a cost break putting Charges on a power that already cost 0 END.

[Hyper-Man]

Much like you don't get a cost break putting Charges on a power that already cost 0 END.

??

[indy523]

Much like you don't get a cost break putting Charges on a power that already cost 0 END.

 

Page 371 6e  That is only for fuel charges so it does not apply here.

[indy523]

Abilities with Charges already are limited to a single Phase, unless they're Continuing or Fuel Charges.  Even if they were already Persistent or Constant.  You don't get to apply Instant or Nonpersistent on top of the Charges Limitation; those are built in.

 

Sorry I can not find any mention of that in the 6e rules plus on page 6e 369 it states that the value of charges are capped at -0L for Persistent powers so applying that rule means that you are limiting the number of effects available to a character arbitrarily and not out of game balance reasons per se.  The rules do state that they can be applied to constant powers such as growth and in that case turning the power on and off is just one charge.

 

My version is more limiting that this.  By in effect converting the power to an instant power and then buying it as a continuing charge this means that when you cast the spell on the gun it lasts for one turn.  IF you have a phase or two that you can't shoot it for whatever reason you lose that time.  The other way one could simply expend a charge and turn it off and then turn it on.  Not what I what.

 

The reason the charges are bought as recoverable is because you can regain then by recasting the spell.  In games where spells are limited to INT/5 using delayed effect or similar limitation built into a VPP that effective limit the number of spells per day I can cast this is actually more limiting than the points allocated for and is why I went through this trouble.  The spell gives you X charges and then you have to go back to your grimoire, arrange your Foci, spend the time needed to chant the power of course waiting for the correct time of day to collect the power etc.

[Hyper-Man]

I would strongly recommend purchasing a copy of Hero Designer ($25, one of the best buys in HERO).  It is 5e & 6e rules compliant and makes building this kind of effect much easier. The example above was created with it.

 

HM

[Hugh Neilson]

Much like you don't get a cost break putting Charges on a power that already cost 0 END.

 

 

??

If I can use my 8d6 Flash (40 AP) eight times per day, I get a -1/2 limitation, and my Flash now costs 0 END. An 8d6 Flash that costs 0 END would have been 60 AP.

 

If I can use my 4 points of Regeneration (20 minutes) 8 times per day, I get the same -1/2 limitation, but Regen cost no END to begin with, and I get no added point break for the wasted 0 END advantage Charges would usually add. Guess I should have bought Self Only BOD healing instead.

 

Sorry I can not find any mention of that in the 6e rules plus on page 6e 369 it states that the value of charges are capped at -0L for Persistent powers so applying that rule means that you are limiting the number of effects available to a character arbitrarily and not out of game balance reasons per se.  The rules do state that they can be applied to constant powers such as growth and in that case turning the power on and off is just one charge.

Maybe read page 369 again...

 

Charges normally last for, at most, a character’s Phase. If a character wants a power with Charges (a smoke grenade, for example) to last longer than this, he should use the Continuing Charges option. Characters can only use this option with Constant or Persistent Powers. The Time Limit or Uncontrolled Advantages are not required. The duration of a Continuing Charge depends on the Time Chart.

That's in the paragraph before the one that says the cost of Continuing Charges for an inherently persistent power caps out at -0. Note that there is no cap on continuing charges for non-persistent powers.

 

By the way, the text related to growth et al is

 

If a character buys Continuing Charges for any Constant or Persistent Power, each use of the Power requires the expenditure of 1 Charge. If the Power is one the character can alter or turn on and off at will (such as Growth, Shape Shift, or Shrinking), then any “use” of it constitutes using 1 Charge. For example, if a character has Shape Shift, 4 Continuing Charges (1 Hour each), when he activates the Power and alters his form he uses 1 Charge. He remains in Shape Shifted form for 1 Hour, at which point he reverts to his standard shape. If at any time during that hour he wants to change shape again, that’s another “use” and requires him to expend another Charge.

So, using a single one hour continuing charge, the character can remain Grown at the level he initially selects for up to one hour. Changing his size to any other size, other than normal size, costs another charge. if he grows for a minute, then shrinks back to get into a vehicle. and 10 minutes later wants to Grow again, that requires using a second charge.

[Hyper-Man]

The Differing Modifier rules listed in 6e1 page 359 are specifically for creating abilities like this - spells that have different modifiers for the "caster" and the "recipient(s)" of the effects.

 

Instead of using the Weaponmaster Talent I would instead just use the core element used to create it via the Talent Creation examples in 6e1 page 447 (Combat Skill Levels applied only to damage).  Since this arguably should be able to work on ANY weapons (HTH, Ranged, Killing or Normal Damage) I used 10 Point All Combat CSL's as the core basis and went with some custom Limitations on how they can be applied.

 

Example:

30 Bless Weapons - Part 1 (Primary Effect): +9 with All Attacks (90 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1), OIF (Weapon Of Opportunity; -1/2), Must Be Split Proportionately Between Damage & OCV (2/3 for Damage & 1/3 for OCV; -1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4)

[Notes: +3 OCV and +3 DC with weapon cast on. ]

37 CASTING (Bless Weapons) - Part 2 (Casting via Naked Modifier): Usable Simultaneously (all targets standing within 10 meters of Grantor; +1), Grantor can only grant the power to others for up to 30 Active Points of Bless Weapon - Part 1, Persistent (+1/4) (37 Active Points)

[Notes: Correct Endurance cost to caster = 20 END] - END=4

-48 CASTING (Bless Weapons) - Part 3 (Limitations on Primary Effect & Casting via Naked Modifier): (67 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x5 END; Applies only to END cost of Part 2; -2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) for up to 67 Points of Part 1 & Part 2 (via Differing Modifiers)

[Notes: Ignore this END cost.  Only the cost(s) displayed for Parts 1 & 2 matter.  Part 3 is only the discount from Limitations to be applied to the entire build.] - END=35

 

Final Real Cost = 19

(30 + 37 - 48 = 19)

 

HM

 

Note that the single "Charge" in this build only defines the duration of the effect on the recipients.  The caster has no type of Charge Limitation (Recoverable or otherwise) on their actual process of casting the effect.  Technically, it could be re-cast on the same or different targets as long as the 20 END cost is paid.

 

Also, while this build was for 6e it could easily be converted to 5e if necessary for roughly the same cost (All Combat Skill Levels are cheaper but UBO might be more expensive).

 

HM