Stats in package deals

[Catseye]

Okay,

 

I've been over and over this one and I just can't GROk it.

 

Many package deals contain stats as part of the package.

 

Howevre stat points can be sold off for what they cost according to the H5 rules.

 

How, then, does putting the stats in the package deal effect anything? If i wanted the stats I could buy them without the package deal, and if I don't want them I can just sell them off and take the points back out of the package.

 

It seems to me to be a null addition to the package.

 

What, if anything, am I missing?

[Markdoc]

I don't think you are missing anything really. Since you no longer get a break on costs, selling Stat.s off won't net you any useful points.

 

It simply means that the GM is saying that these physical stat.s are the minimum requirements. If everything in the package is required, then that sets an absolute limit (no Delta Force members with PRE4, for example). If optional, then it gives a guideline (Delta Force members should be PRE +5, for example).

 

At least that's how I interpret it. These days package deals are generally templates/guidelines.

 

cheers, Mark

[Killer Shrike]

They serve as an example of an archetypical concept. Your character may take a Package and exclude the bits you dont want and include other bits if you like. The Package just represents the "typical" character of that type.

 

I think of Packages as a modular mix-and-match short-hand method of describing characters.

 

Check out some Templates here which use pre-defined Packages to quickly describe some character concepts: http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/CharacterTemplates/characterTemplates.htm

 

Variations in Packages are noted as "Exclude X" or "Upgrade Y" or "Plus Z". Where a generic/unamed option exist in a Package, the specific option selected is referenced

 

Package Deals are simply a convenience in 5th Edition, an easy way of indicating "these abilities should be taken together to represent the baseline of a given concept".

[dugfromthearth]

for races I have the stats in the package modify their base for NCM.

 

so in my world Jinn are Str 5, Int 15 base. They can only get up to 15 str before paying NCM, but can go up to 25 Int before paying NCM.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

for races I have the stats in the package modify their base for NCM.

 

so in my world Jinn are Str 5, Int 15 base. They can only get up to 15 str before paying NCM, but can go up to 25 Int before paying NCM.

 

I do similar for Race Packages only, but I apply the Characteristic bonuses and Penalties after NCM is determined.

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/racePackageNotes.shtml

[Catseye]

Thanks Guys.

 

This is very useful in the way of suggestions and in general makes me more comfortable making similar kinds of changes.

 

[dugfromthearth]

"I do similar for Race Packages only, but I apply the Characteristic bonuses and Penalties after NCM is determined."

 

Can you explain what that means?

 

suppose a race has a str bonus of +5. And a character buys their strength up to 20, or 25, or 30. How would the points work the way you do it?

[Catseye]

As I understand it, and plan on doing it myself, the stats ignore NCM rules.

 

So lets say you have NCMs of 20. You buy your STR up to 19 with points, and you take a racial package that is +3 STR. Your STR would be 22, not 21.

 

Follow?

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Catseye

As I understand it, and plan on doing it myself, the stats ignore NCM rules.

That is usable, but it is not how the rule works. Anything over 20, whether it comes from a package deal or is purchase, costs the x2. So in your example the character is not purchased with a 19 STR and then decides to be a "dwarf" and gains +3 STR. You decide to be a dwarf with a 22 STR and thus pays 14 points for the additional STR over the base 10.

 

Character creation is not modular. You do not take the dwarf package for +3 STR, and the Mountaineer package for +5 STR, and the Orc-Slayer package for +5 STR. Instead you decide to play a dwarven mountaineer orc-slayer with a 23 STR.

[simplygnome]

simple solutions

 

Im glad to see that someone had the same problems that I did! I struggled for weeks trying to figure out the purpose of those useless stat packagings!! However, there are several reasons why they prove to be useful.

 

First off, some HERO GMs require their players to spend a majority of their points on packages, using only the leftovers as freebies. This encures a more "D&D" feel to the game and can give some players more "freedom in restriction". For example, a DM requires you to buy at least two packages, one for you race and one for your proffession. If I have 75 character points to spend and my "ORC" package is 30, while my "DARK PALADIN" package is 38, then you can see how few points I have left over...just enough to "customize" but not enough to really boost my character to UBER power (unless youre a really good point monger *evil laughter at the thought of slaughtered townspeople*). In this instance, almost ALL of your stats will be in packages. -SOME- GameMaster like this idea, while others think that this overrides the purpose and utilitarian design of the HERO system. Its just a different way to play...

------------------

In my campaigns, I don't create many packages or use the above method, but find that using stats in them works by allowing them to override the maximum limitation values. For example, a particular DWARF package costs 15 points, with 35 points in characteristics and abilities balanced out by 20 points in disadvantages and limitations (35 - 20 = 15).

 

So this particular game is a 75 point game with 50 points base and 25 points to be bought in limitations. This player spends 15 of his 75 on the DWARVEN package. Those disadvantages of being a DWARF dont count toward his 25 point limit - Theyve already been taken out of the package cost. So in actuality, the player is getting more points worth -- 25 standard disadvantage points and an extra 20 points in dwarven specific limitations. In actuality, the DWARF package should out the character 35 total points if he were to just buy the abilities outright. This, of course, only works in games with a set limitations limit. It seems to get things done, and balances well if done right. As previously stated, I usually create a small handful of racial packages - the characters usually buy everything else (GM moderated of course)

 

I hope some of these ideas shed some light on the situation. As with everything in this lovely game.... take it or leave it, GMS OPTION!!!!

[Catseye]

Originally posted by Monolith

That is usable, but it is not how the rule works.

 

Pedantism Alert!

 

Seriously, Steve makes it pretty durn obvious in his genre books that the intent is NOT to take the FRED as a text of absolute laws that cannot be broken or modified.

 

He actually makes a number of rules modifications suggestions himself to get different "feels".

 

Having said that, there is a warm and comfortable feeling to knowing that others have used the same rules mods I'm leaning towards with good results :)

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth "I do similar for Race Packages only, but I apply the Characteristic bonuses and Penalties after NCM is determined."Can you explain what that means?suppose a race has a str bonus of +5. And a character buys their strength up to 20, or 25, or 30. How would the points work the way you do it?

Certainly. REF: the Race Package Deals Document from my website (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/racePackageNotes.shtml)

RACE CHARACTERISTIC MAXIMAHERO System 5th Edition has significantly altered the methods available to adjust Normal Characteristics Maxima.

All HERO System 4th Edition style Base and Maxima adjustments have been removed from the Race Packages. In their place Characteristic bonuses and penalties are given instead, which is more appropriate to the HERO System 5th Edition standard.

It is intended that Characterisitc adjustments in the Race Package Deals be applied last after all other Characteristic adjustments and not count against Normal Characteristic Maxima. This is true of both bonuses and penalties. In this fashion an effective Altered Characteristic Maxima is acheived. This is a variation from the recommended method of handling Characteristic Bonuses in 5th Edition Fantasy HERO.

EXAMPLE: Hairfoot Halflings have a +1 Speed, +2 DEX, -5 STR, -2 BODY, -2 INT, -5 PRE as part of their Race Package Deal. If a Hairfoot Halfing character purchases +10 DEX and +10 STR outside of their Package they do not encounter Characteristic Maxima having neither DEX or STR above 20. Then the Race Characteristic modifiers are applied, resulting in an adjusted DEX of 22 and an adjusted STR of 15. If the Halfling wanted a final adjusted STR of 20 after the Race Penalty is applied, the Halfling must buy his base STR up to 25 paying the doubling penalty for 21 to 25 strength; after the -5 STR adjustment from the Hairfoot Halfling Race Package Deal is applied the Halfling has an adjusted STR of 20.

NOTE: Characterisitc bonuses from all other (non-Race) Package Deals do count against Characteristic Maxima. This may require a Package to be refactored if a Character is already at or near their Characteristic Maxima. In all cases where possible take the number of character points spent on the Characteristic in the Package Deal, and buy that many points worth of Characteristic at the increased price.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

"I do similar for Race Packages only, but I apply the Characteristic bonuses and Penalties after NCM is determined."

 

Can you explain what that means?

 

suppose a race has a str bonus of +5. And a character buys their strength up to 20, or 25, or 30. How would the points work the way you do it?

 

(Continued from above)

 

So basically what Im saying is that the way I do it, you ignore char modifiers in Race Packages when determining if a char is over NCM and after this is determined, then add on or subtract the char modifiers from the Race Package.

 

As an example, imagine a theoretical fantasy Race called the Whatzit. The Whatzit are very tough, not very developed mentally, and are otherwise much like humans. Their Race Package Deal grants +10 BODY, +10 CON, -5 INT, -5 EGO, and -5 PRE.

 

Making a Whatzit character, which we will call Whozit, you start off w/ the normal base 10 primarys. Ignoring the Race Package Deal adjustments to chars at this point, lets say you settled on the following after all other modifiers to chars are considered EXCEPT the Race Package:

 

Before Race Adjustments: 15 STR, 15 DEX, 15 CON, 20 BODY, 15 INT, 15 EGO, 15 PRE, 14 COM, 3 PD, 3 ED, 3 SPD, 6 REC, 30 END, 36 STUN

 

The character does not exceed 20 in any of his Primarys or any of the Figured Maxes. Now we apply his Race adjustments. His stat line now looks like:

 

After Race Adjustments: 15 STR, 15 DEX, 25 CON, 30 BODY, 10 INT, 10 EGO, 10 PRE, 14 COM, 3 PD, 5 ED, 3 SPD, 8 REC, 50 END, 51 STUN

 

By this method of reckoning, Whozit is not considered to be over CharMax even though his final adjusted CON and BODY exceed 20. CharMax has been determined by ignoring the Race Adjustments.

 

Now, if Whozit wants to have a final adjusted 20 INT, 20 EGO, and 20 PRE, he must buy his base INT, EGO, and PRE up to 25 each paying CharMax doubling from 21 to 25 before the Race Adjustment. Again, the Race Adjustments are ignored while NCM is figured, and then applied after NCM costs have been paid if necessary. So, for a Whatzit to be as smart and willful as some Humans might be naturally (i.e. a final Adjusted 20 in each) is quite expensive, but conversely for a Human to be as durable as a Whatzit might be naturally (i.e. CON and BODY in the 21-30 range) is also very expensive.

[Alcamtar]

I originally planned to treat characteristics in packages as modifiers to the NCM (so a dwarf with +3 STR would have STR NCM of 23).

 

But after thinking about it, I decided that this violates game balance, by giving you something you didn't pay for. It's equivalent to a dwarf character taking +3 STR with the limitation "usable only by a dwarf" (-1). He's getting a cost break for something that is not really a limitation.

 

Sure maybe dwarves have +3 STR and dwarven strength ranges as high as 23... but the character should still have to pay for the ability. Dwarves also get Night Vision, but not for free... they have to pay for it, and don't get a discount either. Why should STR be different?

 

Normally, I don't allow a character to take any ability score that exceeds NCM without GM approval. Since this is essentially superhuman ability, I feel it requires some justification other than "it makes me better in combat." For nonhumans with different racial norms, I'll generally allow them to buy characteristics up to "adjusted racial max" without special permission, but they still have to pay extra for anything over NCM.

 

Anyway, that's my take on it.

 

Mike

[Killer Shrike]

The cost of the bonus chars is included in the Package Deal Costs.

[Catseye]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

The cost of the bonus chars is included in the Package Deal Costs.

 

Whoops. You aren't syaing that the cost in the package is double normal cost, are you?

 

That would seem to unduly penalize those NOT going over NCM. It was this complaint that made Steve move away from the stats as "hightened Stat max" to the straight stats they are now...

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Catseye

Whoops. You aren't syaing that the cost in the package is double normal cost, are you?

 

That would seem to unduly penalize those NOT going over NCM. It was this complaint that made Steve move away from the stats as "hightened Stat max" to the straight stats they are now...

No, I mean +5 STR costs 5 points in the package, and so on.

 

A fair number of Race Packages Ive done can be found by following the appropriate links from this page: http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/FantasyHERO.shtml

[dugfromthearth]

The idea is it works if the GM designs balanced races.

 

If the dwarven package simply consists of +3 str, then they are just getting free points if it ignores NCM.

 

But if a dwarven package is +5 Str, +5 Con, -5 Dex, so that there max NCM str is 25 Con 25, Dex 15, then a dwarf is great for you if you want a high strength and con but low dex.

[Catseye]

Well, keep in mind that there is an implied limitation to to KS's system which IMO helps balance it.

 

The limitation is "unsellable." Yes you might get 6 pts worth of STR for 3 pts but you MUST buy those 3 pts of STR so it limits your flexability a bit in return.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Catseye

Well, keep in mind that there is an implied limitation to to KS's system which IMO helps balance it.

 

The limitation is "unsellable." Yes you might get 6 pts worth of STR for 3 pts but you MUST buy those 3 pts of STR so it limits your flexability a bit in return.

Correct. Race Packages give some goodies, but they are unalterable by players under my methodolgy.

[Legendsmiths]

My take on it that has been working pretty good is as follows:

 

1. Stats are included in package deals, but generally not more than +3. Enough to get the flavor of a stat, but not over the top (unless the race really warrants it).

 

2. Then, if the race really is predisposed to being that much better with a stat, I change the maxima, using the Age disadvantage as a guideline. Maxima only change if it is a net 0 change in my opinion, or a disadvantage.

 

Point 1 allows you to simply apply the package to a standard normal template and now have a standard normal racial template. There is value in that.

 

Point 2 allows a race to excel with balance.

 

Dwarves, for example, get a boost in STR and CON. They have a 5 point Disad for Altered Char Maxima (23 CON, 17 DEX, 3" Leaping, 8" Running). There are probably a few other mods that I'm forgetting. What this says is that your average dwarf is a little stronger than the average human, but his potential is the same. He is tougher and potentially tougher still. He is no more clumsy than the average man, but his potential dexterity is not that great.

 

These are subtle changes, with subtle impact on the character development, but work very well for capturing flavor.

 

Any racial disads apply towards the character's total disads, otherwise IMO races are too unbalanced.

 

YMMV

[TheTemplar]

KillerShrike,

 

Great website! Question for you, though. Now that Negative Characteristics as Powers are no longer allowed by HD, have you found a way to save them in your prefabs and still count against the NCM for that race? My Dwarves and Half-Orcs are dying to know.

 

Thanks!

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by TheTemplar

KillerShrike,

 

Great website! Question for you, though. Now that Negative Characteristics as Powers are no longer allowed by HD, have you found a way to save them in your prefabs and still count against the NCM for that race? My Dwarves and Half-Orcs are dying to know.

 

Thanks!

Ill take a look at that tonight. I dont have the race packages as prefabs in HD; they are only in HTML format.

 

I was holding off for v2 to finish b4 tackling that as I didnt want to have to redo anything if some design changes were made in midstream.

 

Ill prolly end up doing them as custom templates -- thats how I did the Race Packages in the old days w/ Hero Creator.

[Killer Shrike]

Well, I sat down to do a few Race Packages in v2 as Templates to test the theory and ran into immediate issues.

 

I asked Dan Simon about it, but apparantly the no negative Characteristics as Powers bit is not overridable.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=193551#post193551

 

So, looks like Im not going to be able to use v2 to do my Fantasy HERO Races, and will have to continue to use v1.