Simon

Originally posted by JmOz

Do you deal with customers on a product you represent YES or NO?

 

IF YES: then you are in customer Service.

 

The simple fact is that when you respond to these threads, you put yourself in a customer service capasity, and I think we will both agree it is not where you have an aptitude.

I disagree. I post on these boards just like anybody else.

Just because I wrote a product for Hero Games does not mean that the way I post or the way I act is suddenly changed.

Regardless of what you think, I am not in customer service. Nor will I ever be, if I have my way.

As someone has stated, this whole mess played out over the course of several threads (this one and a pair in the HD forum).

It started out in the HD forum with a question posted saying that HD was doing things wrong because it wouldn't allow the selloff of partial speed.

I explained that the way HD was doing things was correct according to the rules of the system. This statement was questioned and quite some time was spent on this subject, starting with statements that it's not a rule, that FREd explicitly states that you can, etc. I pointed out the FAQ entry. Quite a bit of time was spent going over such concepts as "the FAQ entry is unclear" or "the FAQ is invalid because it's not in the printed book and should not be considered part of the rules" or "the FAQ entries are mutually contradictory" and so on.

This went on for some time. There were even suggestions made (by both sides) for working around this issue in HD if you didn't want to follow that rule. More arguments and complaints followed these suggestions.

Throughout this, there was the continued theme of questioning that this was a rule at all. I suggested that if they doubted my word that it was a rule, that they do what I had done many times: talk to Steve about it. This is where things got weird, as Melessqr stated that he had no doubt Steve would back up my statements and verify the rule.....apparently we were still stuck on "it's not explicitly stated in the rule book, so it doesn't exist".

There was continued conversation from here, but very little of substance.

Throughout all of this, others were chiming in with various ideas. Where those ideas contained errors in calculations (or misunderstandings in how multiple purchases of DEX affected SPD, or how experience expenditures figured in) I pointed out those errors and at least attempted to explain how things were intended to work, according to the rules.

Why me? Because I have, arguably, one of the better understandings of the rules in this area due to my work on HD. I had to get it right very early on and have spent a LOT of time going over the rules with Steve, making sure that I understood exactly how things are supposed to work.

I even talked to Steve during the course of this conversation, making sure that I still had things right and verifying the rules that I was posting.

So....that's a rough summary of the three threads in question.

Note: I have left out any mention of snide comments or insults back and forth and have tried to keep it as objective as possible.

It's up to you to go through the threads and decide on what you feel of the tone.

I am (thankfully) not in customer service. I am not paid to sit around and take abuse and return it with a smile. I have a great amount of respect for those that do....they've got an extremly difficult and thankless job.

Many would (and have) argued that, despite my statements that I am not in customer service, that I am in such a role. I have yet to see any contract that I signed which places me in that role.

I am a contractor, hired on by Hero Games to write a piece of software. That's all, nothing more.

When someone comes at me with what I feel is an abusive attitude (note the phrasing here: what I feel), I throw it right back at them. Often harder than they do.

Does this make me an ass? Probably. Truth is, I really don't care. I go home happy at the end of the day.

If you decide that you don't want to purchase HD because I won't sit around and take abuse from people (or if you don't think that I took any abuse and I just went off on some poor, undeserving soul), that's fine. It's absolutely your perogative.

I never wrote HD for the money. There is not a chance that I will ever make enough money off of it to justify the time that I've spent coding it. Even if I were to have taken in 100% of the price on all sales, this wouldn't be the case.....the market simply isn't big enough for that. This doesn't bother me in the slightest.

I wrote HD because I love the Hero System. I wrote HD because I wanted to see a chargen that made character creation easy while also following all the myriad rules and regulations that are contained in the rule book, supplements, FAQ, etc. Such a beast has never existed for the Hero System.

I am extremely gratified that other people seem to like HD and find it useful. I think that it's a great compliment. But I also realize that it's not for everyone. This is fine. If you decide that you don't want to purchase HD, by all means, don't buy it. If you don't want to purchase any product that is developed by someone who you feel is an ass, that's fine....don't purchase it. Neither your purchase or your lack thereof will change the way I deal with people. I am perfectly happy with the way I deal with people and have no desire to change it.

Originally posted by melessqr

Think you won that contest.

That should come as a shock to nobody.

Enjoy your beer.

Will do!

Originally posted by Celt

Sweet Monkey Jayzus! Is this still going on?

Yup.

So far we've established that the rule exists and has been stated clearly enough by Steve that even the likes of Melessqr and Kristopher have been forced to admit that it exists.

We've also established that if they don't like the rule, they can ignore it....and not run the risk of the gaming police beating down their door in the middle of the night and taking all of their precious Hero stuff.

We've also established several ways in which they can use Hero Designer while not following that rule and have the points work out correctly.

As near as I can tell, Melessqr seems to be (a) pissed that anyone else would dare follow different rules than him (even Steve Long, who is obviously unfit to design a rules system and should bow before the glory of Melessqr's knowledge)...and ( trying to show just how big of an asshole he can be.

Myself, I'm getting ready to take the money that I got from Melessqr's purchase of Hero Designer and go have a few beers on him.

Thanks, Melessqr!

Originally posted by Farkling

And for whomsoever is dragging out the "flaws" in Hero Designer, I'd like to point out something...

 

The two pieces of DnD Character software I have dealt with (through friends...I don't see the need for the software myself), had NO ability to add changes to the rules systems the computer enforced, at times contradicted the printed rules, AND were badly designed for ease of use.

 

The shareware character generation software for White Wolf Exalted works better!

 

I haven't got the Hero Designer software. I've got the 5th edition templates for use with my MetaCreator. I assume it is far more customizable than Hero Designer from the descriptions I've been given.

You may want to check out the free demo of HDv2....you may be surprised ;-)

The demo version installer (available on the HD site) will need to be updated to 2.0.48 before you'll be able to run it, but the updates are coming less and less frequently as we steadily narrow in on a final version (I'm down to about one a week now....probably dropping off from there until December).

There is a large amount of rules customization built into HDv2 in the way of Campaign Rules.....and the templates are far easier to modify and change for any other rules changes that you desire.

Originally posted by Kristopher

Are you sure you want to use D&D as an example of how to do things?

 

This whole "that's how it was always supposed to be done" claim reminds me of when Justin Achilli had just taken over the Vampire product line at White Wolf, and changed the way that experience was spent, and tried to claim that "it was always supposed to be done the way I like it."

 

As for the "griping" and "work-around" issues, well, the wordarounds are inelegant kludges, and I happen to disagree with the actual ruling (_regardless_ of who made it), AND with what's being presented to back it up.

 

And I'm still waiting to find out why the character examples in the back of FRED sell off fractional SPD. If it's clear and unambigous, and it's "always been illegal to sell off fractional SPD," who exactly made the aggregious error of doing so in FRED, and why wasn't it immediately caught by the rest of the staff? Hell, the way Simon makes it sound, it's so clear and simple and consistant with the past that the person responsible should be fired for gross incompetence, along with all the editors.

It's already been caught, and mentioned in the errata.

Originally posted by melessqr

But those other rules systems don't have the Glorious, Fantabulous, temple of Anal Retention that is Hero Designer on which people spend money to find that it doesn't let them do what they've done for since the BBB came out and Before.

 

Melessqr

Well...first off, you were doing it wrong. Bold statement, I know....but it's backed up by Steve. You are perfectly entitled to do it wrong....it just means that you're running with your own rules, not the rules of the Hero System.

If you insist on continuing to do it wrong, then we have already discussed several ways in which you can do exactly what you are looking for....in Hero Designer. These methods range from somewhat circuitous methods (that you yourself proposed) to very simple methods (such as purchasing a Custom Power and setting the value to negative). The options are yours....but you seem happier griping about it than actually doing anything.

I'd say that the fact that HD allows you to implement your house rules (rules that are not accounted for in the Hero System itself) speaks pretty dang well of a program that was designed to implement the rules of the system.

Thanks for the complement!

Originally posted by melessqr

Except, of course, the statements of Steve Long, the Line Developer, to which you refer aren't In either of the sources cited.

 

Melessqr

Still arguing...amazing...

The original publication of FREd assumed that these rules were already known and did not need to be elaborated on. When it became clear that this was not the case, Steve answered the questions regarding these rules in the rules forum.

When it became clear that a significant number of people were operating with false assumptions of what the rules regarding fractional SPD were, Steve put the clarified rules in the FAQ, where they remain to this day.

The FAQ is every bit as "official" as the rulebook.

As has been stated by others in this thread, there are many other RPG systems (in fact, to my knowledge _all_ systems) that follow this same procedure: elaboration and clarification of their rules in an online FAQ. DnD, which has been through MANY versions and revisions and has, in fact, been around longer than HERO has their own online FAQ in which they do pretty much the exact same thing.

Originally posted by Kristopher

There's nothing in FRED which advocates in either direction. It's entirely vague.

 

 

 

The example, again, isn't anything like conclusive. It only states that SPD can be sold back. It NEVER says anything about fractional SPD, one way or the other.

 

There's nothing in FRED, or in 4th IIRC, to base your position on.

Except, of course, for the statements of Steve Long, the Line Developer.....the guy that makes the rules.

Originally posted by Gary

Interestingly, the Bestiary is filled with examples of creatures that don't get any points savings for partial speed. It looks like the small child and senior citizen of page 223 of Fred are simply aberrations.

They're listed in the Errata as an error. At least, the Senior Citizen is, which kinda extends to the Small Child example as well.

If someone would like, they could even bring the Small Child error to Steve's attention and he'll update the Errata to include it.

Originally posted by archer

No, we don't "have" to do anything. Dan, the whole point of roleplaying is that there are no Game Police telling us what we "have" to do.

 

And Dan, I have to ask you this. How much time have you wasted defending your decisions on the boards here that you wouldn't have wasted had you not programmed blind obedience to your interpretation of the rules into the system? Include in that time the amount of time you've wasted explaining the software to people who find that a certain feature doesn't work as they expect, again because of that blind obedience to the rules. (And I can recall a few times when your interpretation was incorrect, and there is at least one rule that is not even implemented.) Would all of that time been worth doing it differently from the beginning?

I would do nothing differently at all. The entire point of HD, as commissioned by Hero Games, was to create a chargen which followed the rules of the Hero System.

I didn't write the app for you. I wrote it for Hero Games.

There are a large number of people who find the app to be extremely useful. It has, essentially, become the ultimate rules lawyer, which is exactly what it was intended to be.

If you don't want to play by the rules of the Hero System, that is absolutely your perogative....as you said, no one is going to come breaking down your door and taking away your copy of FREd.

But don't expect the official software which was designed to implement the rules with the "interpretation" given by the line developer (Steve Long) to adhere to your house rules.

As much as possible, I've made it capable of circumventing some rules (allowing you to use your own house rules and still use the software), but the primary goal has always been on impementing the rules that Steve has created first and foremost and working in flexibility and house rules second.

Originally posted by Monolith

If I have a character with a 10 DEX and buy his base SPD to 3 it costs him 10 points. If I then buy +10 DEX OIHID he would have a 4 SPD, but from what you are saying he would go back to a base 3 SPD (10 DEX +10oihid +1 base). This is the exact same thing you are saying about the 5 points of DEX. You are saying any points spent for DEX are lost to the character. And that is not right.

 

It does not matter if I buy a 10 DEX character with a 3 SPD for 10 points or a 15 DEX character with a 3 SPD for 5 points. Those 10 and 5 points need to add to the character's total, even if he does buy additional characteristics with a Limitation.

You're making the incorrect assumption that the character's base SPD is set in stone. It is not. It changes as his DEX changes. The same way as any other Figured Characteristic.

You have a character with 10 DEX and buy his base SPD to 3. This costs you 10 points.

If you then buy +10 DEX, his SPD would go up to 4 (base SPD of 3, and you've purchased 1 level). You've still spent 10 points on SPD.

If you decide that you don't like this, and you want him to only have a SPD of 3, you can opt to not buy that +1 level which you spent 10 points on. This leaves you with 20 DEX and 3 SPD. You've spent 30 points on the DEX and have not spent anything on SPD.

Originally posted by Monolith

But the point is, how does he buy the 7 points with a OIHID limitation when the power can only be purchased in groups of 10?

He does not.

If he wants to have the +1 SPD with OIHID, then he pays 10 points for the SPD and then applies the Limitation.

He then has 0 points spend on his SPD characteristic (vs. the 5 points that he spent previously) and will be spending 8 points on his SPD Power.

Per Steve.

Originally posted by Monolith

And you are not reading what I am saying Dan. The character has ALREADY paid 5 points to go from a 2.5 to a 3. What happened to those 5 points he already paid? How do they figure in for him? He paid 5 points to go from a 2.5 to 3 and 7 point to go from a 3.3 to 4. So he paid 12 points to go a 4 SPD. Yet his base DEX is 23 (15+8oihid). So a 23 DEX +1 for base adjustment gives him a 3.3 SPD +.5 that he has already paid in character points above gives him 3.8 SPD. So he needs to spend 2 points to go from a 3.8, not a 7 points to go from a 3.3. If you make him go from a 3.3 then you are saying the 5 points he already spent are lost!!!

No.

He paid 5 points initially. Then his base changed, making that 5 point expense meaningless, you recalculate the points spent on SPD when his DEX changes.

He does not spend 5 points and then 7 points. He spends 7 points total.

Originally posted by Monolith

It also means that the character paid 12 points to go from a 3.3 SPD to a 4 SPD (5 to go from a 2.5 to 3 and 7 to go from a 3.3 to 4). He paid 12 points for the privilage of raising his SPD .7 points.

 

SPD needs to run as a function of a total.

 

15 DEX gives 2.5 SPD +.5 to SPD for a 3 SPD.

+8 DEX should then take the character to 3.8 SPD (his 2.5 base + .5 he paid for + .8 he gains from the extra DEX) because his new base is now 3, not 2.5. If you do not consider the base to be 3 then the character has just wasted the 5 points raising the SPD in the first place. Those 5 points are lost completely within the system, and that is not correct. A character should never lose something he pays points for.

Monolith, please read my responses to you above, you are not calculating things correctly at all.

The character spends 7 points (total) to go from SPD 3.3 to 4.

Originally posted by Kristopher

In the case of HERO, it's not being used as a clarifier for already-printed rules. It's being used to publish previously unwritten rules.

 

There's NOTHING in the printed rules to indicate that the remaining fractional SPD can't be sold back. Read page 24 and 25, and page 92 (IIRC). Not only is there nothing at all printed about this, the Powers entry for Characteristics SPECIFICALLY uses selling back the remaining fractional SPD as an EXAMPLE.

 

If something is used as an example in the written rules, you can hardly claim that it was always forbidden and that everyone just misunderstood.

Ahh...I get it: make stuff up when you're wrong.

There is nothing in FREd which advocates (or suggests in any way) selling off partial SPD.

The Characteristics as Powers section (page 92 of FREd) contains examples for "Super Steroid Pills" (STR and +1 SPD), "Presence Defense" (PRE), "Spell of Righteous Strength" (STR, and CON), a purchase of +35 STR with Modifiers, a purchase of 100 STR with Limitations which do not affect the Figured Characteristics, and a purchase of STR with OIHID.

The only mention made of selling off SPD is the following:

That in no way contradicts anything that has been said. The SPD that is being sold back is a full point of SPD, not "fractional SPD" which cannot be sold back and is never suggested as being possible to sell back.

Because this was unclear to some, a FAQ entry was made which very clearly states that it is not legal.

Originally posted by melessqr

No... No, they're not... Obviously, or this thread wouldn't exist, and there wouldn't be FAQ entries about it... People asking questions indicates the rules are unclear. People asking questions about it frequently indicates that the rules are very unclear.

 

Melessqr

Rules include those rules in the FAQ. That's why it's there: to make things clear.

The FAQ entries are extremely clear on this. Ipso facto, so are the rules.

Q.E.D.

Originally posted by Talon

It wasn't addressed before. Everyone I knew did it that way, but there were no explicit rounding rules (and the character creation programs of the time were not rules-definitive).

 

Of course, getting rid of figured characteristics would solve this problem.

Agreed, they tend to be more trouble than they're worth.

But, until the rules are changed to remove Figured Characteristics and just have them all act as primary characteristics (something that I can't see happening until the 6th Edition), we have to make do with the rules that we have....and those rules are extremely clear on this subject.

I would argue that Charges needs to be changed just as badly, but that's a whole 'nother conversation ;-)

Originally posted by Kristopher

I'm not seeing anything about that in FRED. From page 24:

 

Each additional point of SPD costs 10 Character Points. - and - Each 1/10 of a SPD point costs 1 Character Point.

 

There's nothing printed there that even implies that SPD can only be sold back in 10 Character Point chunks.

 

 

 

The FAQ? What page of FRED does that begin on?

 

{flipping through FRED}

 

There are some blank pages in the back of my copy of FRED. Did I get a messed up copy? Can I exchange my copy for a copy that has this FAQ thing actually printed? Who do I contact?

The FAQ exists to clarify rules in FREd that are misunderstood....or not understood clearly enough. It also elaborates on rules that may not be stated at all in FREd. Variations on rules and questions that may never have occurred to Steve when he was initially writing the book.

The rullings that Steve makes in the FAQ are just as much a part of Hero System as the book itself. They exist to help people better understand the rules of the system.

If you want, I believe that they keep a PDF copy of the FAQ posted, so you can easily download it and print it out. You can even staple it into the back of your copy of FREd, if that makes you feel better.

Originally posted by melessqr

Your approved method:

 

12 Dex as a straight Characteristic (speed 2.2), 6 Real

+11 Dex Hero ID Only (Speed 3.3), 26 Real

+2 Speed Hero ID Only (Speed 5.3), 16 Real

 

48 Real Points

 

The way I'm gonna do it:

 

10 Dex as a straight characteristic (Speed 2.0), 0 Real

+2 Dex No Figured Characteristics, 4 Real

+10 Dex Hero ID Only (Speed 3.0), 24 Real

+1 Dex No Figured Characteristics, Hero ID Only, 2 Real

+2 Speed Hero ID Only (Speed 5.0) , 16 Real

 

46 Real Point

 

The most sensible and efficient method:

 

12 Dex as a straight characteristic (Speed 2.2), 6 Real

-.2 Speed (Speed 2.0), -2 Real

+11 Dex Hero ID Only (Speed 3.1), 26 Real

+1.9 Speed Hero ID Only (Speed 5.0), 15 Real

 

45 Real Points

 

You Approved method is 3 Real points more...

 

Melessqr

You're welcome to buy it however you want.

The way I suggested is the way that I would expect one of my players to purchase it. If they came to me with your second option, I would tell them to stop being a munchkin and deal with it.....or I'd make their character's life a living hell until they learned their lesson.

As for the third option, it is against the rules, so the points don't really matter.

It is the same as saying that you'd save points if you only spent 3 points per level of Energy Blast rather than 5. You're technically correct, but you're not following the rules of the Hero System, which is what we're discussing.

Originally posted by Kristopher

Pages 24 and 25 of FRED don't say anything to justify the stance you're taking.

 

Oh, and page 92 of FRED makes a direct reference to selling back SPD:

 

"For example, if the character's DEX was purchased with a -1 Limitation, then any points gained by selling back the character's SPD would be subject to the same limitation..."

First off, you are perfectly welcome to sell back SPD. It is completely within the rules for you to do so. If you have a 2.3 SPD and you sell back a level, you get 10 points back and end up at a 1 SPD.

As for the source of the rule, I get the rule directly from Steve Long. The guy that WRITES the rules. The rule is made abundantly clear in the FAQ, since there are a number of people that have been operating under a misconception of what the rules regarding partial points of SPD were and were taking their misconceptions as cannon.

This rule is not a new rule. It is not something that Steve created for 5th Edition. It has been around for a long time....it is just something which he found it necessary to clarify when folks started asking questions about it.

The only thing that I'd raise an eyebrow at would be the Ablative, though that's probably a good way to simulate the wall being chipped away by attacks which don't exceed its DEF....you'd just need to work with your GM to determine how much of the wall is whittled away each time.

To answer the question: yes, you could have multiple ice walls up and then make it snow. Because the walls are Uncontrolled, they have no connection to the character once they are created....you can shift MP slots at will and the walls will remain in place.

Uncontrolled is generally used for the "activate the Power and forget about it" effect. Once activated, the Power is completely separate from the character. The character can be knocked out, killed, taken to Canada, or any number of other unpleasant things....the power will continue to function.

Part of the Uncontrolled Modifier is defining a "reasonably common" circumstance which will deactivate the Power. In the case of an ice wall, I (personally) would have no problem whatsoever with the statement that it needs to be melted. Characters with Fire SFX Powers could melt the wall very quickly....others would simly wait for it to melt on its own.

The only trick in there is the idea that the wall would disappear as soon as you changed MP slots.....this means that it is not entirely separated from the character. I think that it would be easiest to simply take this as part of the "reasonably common" way to turn off the Uncontrolled Power, but that's up to you...

Originally posted by melessqr

And it costs 3 real points more...

 

Melessqr

No, it costs exactly what it is supposed to cost according to the rules of the system.

Originally posted by melessqr

To build on the theme...

 

If I wanted the same character to be speed 6, dex 23 in Hero ID... he'd have to buy his Base Speed Characteristic up to 4.7, which is Above human stat maxima.

 

It'd be easier just to let people buy fractional points of speed.

 

Melessqr

 

-----------------------

 

Oh, nevemind...

 

buy the base speed charateistic up to 2.7 and buy 2 points of Speed OIHID...

 

It'd still be easier to just let people buy fractional points of speed.

 

Melessqr

You continue to misunderstand.

You cannot "buy up" your SPD to a fractional value.

Fractional SPD only exists to give the player a benefit if they want to buy their SPD Characteristic up to the next whole level from its base.

That's it.

You cannot sell it off.

You cannot buy fractional SPD as a Power.

You cannot buy up your SPD to a fractional value.