Simon

Originally posted by melessqr

Here's another Scenario for you... it's still broken...

 

Normal ID, Speed 2, Dex 12.

 

Hero ID, Speed 5, Dex 23.

 

Dex 12, Base Speed 2.2

 

+11 Dex OIHID, Base Speed 3.3.

 

To get the Speed 5 I want in Hero ID I have to buy the base SPD Characteristic up by 1.7, for 17 character points... which makes my Normal ID Base Speed 3.7... bumping up against human characteristic maxima... which is pretty impressive for a the geeky high school kid who is the Normal ID of the Character.

 

It'd be easier just to let people buy fractional speed.

 

Melessqr

Again, incorrect. It may help if you stopped looking for this to be difficult/broken and simply accepted the rule.

I'll go through how to do this in HD, since that is likely going to be easiest for you to understand:

On the characteristics tab:

Purchase +2 DEX (giving you a 12 DEX Characteristic). This costs you 6 points.

Do nothing with your SPD (leaving you at a 2 SPD Characteristic).

On the Powers tab:

Purchase +11 DEX, OIHID. For clarity, have it add into the secondary total. This costs you 26 points.

Purchase +2 SPD, OIHID. For clarity, have it add into the secondary total. This costs you 16 points.

You are left with a character that has:

12/23 DEX

2/5 SPD

Conceptually, this matches what you are looking to do: outside of Hero ID, the character has 12 DEX and 2 SPD.

In Hero ID, the character has 23 DEX and 5 SPD.

He benefits from the boost to his DEX by gaining an extra point of SPD (he only bought 2 levels to get to 5 SPD).

As always, there are many ways you can do it. The way that comes to mind for me (offhand) would be to simply use a Force Wall.

If you don't want to spend END to maintain the wall, then you can make it 0-END. If you want the wall to remain until it melts or you swith the MP slot around, you can make it Uncontrolled (with the condition to stop the power being that you either shift MP slots or simply melt the wall).

Originally posted by melessqr

I see what you're saying... but that's even MORE baroque.

 

Dex 15, base speed 2.5

Buy it up to 3 as a characteristic for 5 character points.

 

+8 Dex OIHID, base speed 3.3

Buy it up to 4 for 7 character points...

 

Which leaves his base speed (In Normal ID) at the Highly Desireable, Efficient, and Oh So Obvious total of 2.7

 

If he wants to maintain his base speed of 3 in Normal ID and 4 in Hero ID, he has to buy his base speed up to the equally desireable, efficient, and obvious total of 3.2

 

It's just be easier to let people buy fractional points of Speed.

 

Melessqr

You do not see what I'm saying at all.

DEX 15, base SPD 2.5

But it up to 3 as a characteristic for 5 character points.

+8 DEX, OIHID. This now changes his BASE SPD to 3.3 (23 DEX total).

If he wants to have a character with a SPD of 4, he spends 7 points TOTAL on his SPD to go from a 3.3 to a 4.

If he wants to have a character with a SPD of 3, he does not spend anything (he gets back that initial 5 points that he spent, since it is no longer valid/needed) and remains at a SPD of 3.

Some costs may help:

DEX: 10 base, 15 as a Characteristic (15 points)

SPD: 2.5 base, 3 as a Characteristic (5 points)

Total: 20 points

---------

DEX: 10 base, +5 as a Characteristic, +8 OIHID, 23 total (15+19=34 points)

SPD: 3.3 base, 3 as a Characteristic (0 points)

Total: 34 points

----------

DEX: 10 base, +5 as a Characteristic, +8 OIHID, 23 total (15+19=34 points)

SPD: 3.3 base, 4 as a Characteristic (7 points)

Total: 41 points

Originally posted by melessqr

How do I pay 7 points for the speed? 1 Point of Speed costs 10 points (Assuming no limitations)... You can't buy fractional points of speed.

 

Or, that's what you've been telling me.

 

Melessqr

There are no "fractional points" of SPD when purchasing SPD as a POWER.

In the example given above, the +1 SPD is being purchased without Modifiers and is bought as a Characteristic.

Originally posted by melessqr

Yes it Does!

 

It'll cost you 10 character points for 1 point of speed.

 

Have a nice day.

 

Melessqr

Incorrect. The problem was a basic misunderstanding of the way SPD and DEX relate.

it does not matter what order the DEX is purchased, it always affects the base (starting) SPD.

If he wants a character with a 3 SPD, he doesn't need to spend anything (and actually gets back the 5 points that he spent initially on the +1 SPD, since it is no longer necessary).

If he wants a character with a 4 SPD, he just needs to spend the 7 points necessary to take his SPD up to 4 from 3.3 -- assuming he does not put any modifiers on his +1 SPD.

The only time he would need to spend 10 points for that initial +1 SPD instead of 7 would be if he purchased the +1 SPD as a Power, in which case the "partial SPD" does not apply. Per Steve.

Originally posted by Monolith

If I then buy +8 DEX OIHID the character now has a 23 DEX and a 3.8 SPD because I have already spent the 5 points for the additional SPD on the base character.

That is incorrect.

The extra 8 DEX affects your base SPD. It doesn't matter what "order" you purchase the characteristics/powers in.

To be clear:

If you have a 15 DEX, this gives you a 2.5 base SPD.

If you then buy +1 SPD as a characteristic, you are left with 3 SPD for 5 points.

If you then buy +8 DEX, OIHID as a Power, you have a 3.3 base SPD and your choice of:

4 SPD for 7 points

or

3 SPD for 0 points

Originally posted by Monolith

With the rule in place now, If you start with a 23 DEX and 5 SPD, each point of DEX purchased beyond that increases the SPD as well (an increase to a 24 DEX gives a 5.1 SPD). No point shavings allowed now.

Err...no it doesn't.

If you have a 24 DEX, you have a base SPD of 3.4. If you buy it up to 5, you have spent 16 points on your SPD.

If you then increase your DEX (with experience, or whatever) to 25, you have a base SPD of 3.5. Your +2 SPD now costs you 15 points rather than 16.

This is, of course, assuming you bought the +2 SPD as a Characteristic, not a Power.

b]I do agree that this does break down in Hero Designer though. If my werewolf character has a 15 DEX and 3 SPD, and wants to buy +8 DEX with OIHID, and then +1 SPD OIHID the character is left with a 4.8 SPD. There should be a way to purchase the extra .2 SPD with the OIHID Limitation too, because that is what you are trying to represent. I suppose the designers get around this by always buying Characteristics with the No Figured Limitation. It is just a sloppy way to do something. [/b]

Actually, if you have a 15 DEX and 3 SPD and purchase +8 DEX, OIHID and +1 SPD, OIHID, you are left with:

23 DEX (total)

3.3 base SPD

4 SPD (total)

The +1 SPD costs you 10 points because it is a Power (it has Modifiers on it). This is per Steve and according to the rules of the system.

If you purchase the +8 DEX and tell HD to have it add into the secondary total, then you have (assuming the +1 SPD is also added into the secondary total):

15/23 DEX (total)

2.5/3.3 base SPD

2/4 SPD (total)

Outside of werewolf form, the character has 15 DEX and 2 SPD (correct). In werewolf form, he has 23 DEX and 4 SPD (correct).

There is no breakdown.

You seem to be under the impression that (a) this is difficult to work around in HD and ( that this is a new rule.

Neither is the case.

You'll find that these boards are a fantastic resource for any questions that you run into.

If you have any questions on Hero Designer, just let me know and I'll do what I can to help out

You have two options, that I can see:

1. Purchase the Aid outside of the EC and link it to each slot.

2. Purchase the Aid multiple times....adding it into each slot as a Compound Power. Each slot is then a new power which is a combination of the original power and an Aid.

From what you describe, (2) is likely the best way to do things, though if you're talking about a large-scale Aid it may get pricey.

Originally posted by CorpCommander

Is it possible to do this with Hero Designer 1.47?

Yes and no.

You can buy the negative Skill Levels and apply the Lims just fine. The only issue that you'll run into is if you place everything into a Compound Power -- HD will total the Active Costs of each component Power to come up with the total Active Cost. Because the negative Skill Levels have a negative Active Cost, the value that HD lists for the overall Active Cost of the ability will be less than the value listed in FREd.

There's some ambiguity in FREd as to which method is correct....

More notes:

As noted on page 333, OCV penalties are bought as 5-point "negative" Skill Levels on a Focus (OAF; -1). This changes the math you have posted above. -2 OCV (as in the example with the Derringer) is -10 Active and -5 Real Cost.

I've worked through most of them (in the process of checking over HD) and they all work out (or are noted as errors in the Errata).

I'll use the .38 Special as an example, since it's simpler than the .38 Derringer in that it does not include negative skill levels:

Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6 + 1; STR Minimum 7 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), OAF (-1), 6 Charges (-3/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Beam (-1/4)

Active Cost: 20

Real Cost: 5

Just like FREd states.

In working out the .38 Derringer, if memory serves, the Real Cost total will actually work out to a negative value, due to the OCV and RMod values. The minimum cost for anything, however, is 1 point, so the total Real Cost for the weapon is 1 point.

Just realized: don't build your Automaton with Absorption to a Defense....it's not worth it.

First (assuming you've got a "true Automaton" with Takes No STUN), the cost of all Defense Powers is tripled.

Then you halve the effect of your Absorption.

So you'll only go up by 1 PD for every 6 BODY Absorbed....

Well whaddya know....never even noticed that one ;-)

I'll just stick to handling the character creation software and leave the combat software to other folks

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I believe that, because PD is a defense power, the absorption increases it only half as fast. But he's still moving up the PD chart fairly quickly.

I am aware of no such rule. Absorption adds to Defenses just like any other Power.

The only statement in FREd (to my knowledge) about Absorption and Defenses is "...but if the Absorption increases any defenses applicable to the attack, only the pre-Absorption amount of defenses protects him that Segment..." -- I followed this in the "example" above.

Absorption adds in 1 Character Point for every BODY Absorbed. PD is 1 Character Point per +1, therefore it is a 1/1 with the BODY Absorbed.

OK...an example:

I've got a guy with 10d6 Absorption versus Physical Damage. The Absorption goes to his PD.

The character has a natural 20 PD (for the sake of argument).

Combat begins. He's hit by a punch, taking 12d6 damage. The roll is average and he takes 42 STUN and 12 BODY. His Absorption give him +12 PD now. He takes 22 STUN from the attack.

So far so good.

Next time he's hit by the same attack, he takes only 10 STUN, and his PD goes up another 12 points. He's now at a respectable 44 PD. After only 2 hits.

Third hit does the same damage. He no longer takes any STUN from the attack (he shrugs off the attack) and his PD is now at a whopping 56.

This will continue until he maxes out his Absorption (+60 PD for a total of 80 PD).

Not too shabby of a Power, if you ask me.

Yup.

The values posted above are all correct.

Figured Characteristics, as the name implies, are "figured" from the primary characteristic values.

For example (as noted above): PD = STR / 5

As your strength goes up, so does your PD. Your base PD.

Primary characteristics have a fixed "base" value (10). Figured Characteristics have a varying base value, determined by the actual value of the Characteristics that they are based off of.

Your PD's base value changes with your Strength.

You can also buy up your Figured Characteristics beyond their base value, the same way you can buy up primary Characteristics beyond their base value.

The only point at which Figured Characteristics really vary from the primary Characteristics (other than having a varying base value) is that you can only sell off one Figured Characteristic. You can't, for example, reduce both PD and ED to 2 in the example you gave above.

Looks legal to me, though it would depend on the Telepathy not being in the MP (or any other Power Framework). You cannot Link two different slots of a Power Framework (or two slots of different Power Frameworks). One of the drawbacks of a Power Framework.

I also wouldn't give the "Must communicate verbally" a -1/2. The cases in which this actually limits you are pretty rare, and the limitation is not terribly "limiting"....I'd call it a -1/4 tops. Unless you also want this to mean that you can only get to conscious thoughts....it would be very difficult to "verbalize" some subconscious thoughts....

One comment on the "Mind Control should not give Telepathy-like abilities": while I applaud the sentiment of not allowing one Power to overlap on another, using Mind Control to tell someone to "tell me the truth about X" is not the same as Telepathy.

Simple example: You roll your Mind Control and give your command. The target tells you about X. Is it the truth? You have no real way of knowing...it depends entirely on whether you made your roll -- something you don't know in this case. The target might just be "playing along" and lying through their teeth, having successfully resisted the attempt to control them.

With Telepathy, you don't have this problem. You're not relying on them telling you the truth, you're reading directly into their thoughts.

I would say that it's not worth anything....it's not limiting the character in any way.

How much are you using your senses when you're unconscious?

About the only thing it does is open the character up to Drains and Suppresses (Flashes are already applicable). The chances of running into a Drain or Suppress for a given sense (instead of a Flash) are negligible....and the effect is the same as a Flash (pretty much), so the net disadvantage/limitation is nill.

Call it a -0 Limitation or a 0-point Disad, if you want.....

HDv2 is now beginning its public test phase!

Here's the deal:

If you have a full (purchased) copy of HDv1, you can upgrade it to v2. The upgraded version will be fully functional. The only limitation will be that you must be online whenever you start it up so that it can check its version against the test server. Anytime I change the version, you will need to pull down the new update before you can start up again. Beyond that, it will be a fully functioning copy of v2.

If you do not have a full copy of HDv1, you can still try things out with the new demo version that is up there. The demo version is a bit limited in its abilities: you cannot open files, save files, or export/print files. Everything else in the app is fully functional, however, so you will be able to see how the program works and what it can do.

The main point in all of this is to get as many eyes on the software as possible for the next few months (before it goes on sale).

If you're interested, the Hero Designer site (http://www.herodesigner.com) is now taking open registrations. Just head on over and click on the "Register" link.

Enjoy!

HDv2 is now beginning its public test phase!

Here's the deal:

If you have a full (purchased) copy of HDv1, you can upgrade it to v2. The upgraded version will be fully functional. The only limitation will be that you must be online whenever you start it up so that it can check its version against the test server. Anytime I change the version, you will need to pull down the new update before you can start up again. Beyond that, it will be a fully functioning copy of v2.

If you do not have a full copy of HDv1, you can still try things out with the new demo version that is up there. The demo version is a bit limited in its abilities: you cannot open files, save files, or export/print files. Everything else in the app is fully functional, however, so you will be able to see how the program works and what it can do.

The main point in all of this is to get as many eyes on the software as possible for the next few months (before it goes on sale).

If you're interested, the Hero Designer site (http://www.herodesigner.com) is now taking open registrations. Just head on over and click on the "Register" link.

Enjoy!

What Sense Group did he define the Detect as belonging to?

If it's the Unusual Group, then your job in blocking it will be harder, but he would have had to have purchased Range, Targeting Sense, etc. Since he bought "Sense", it sounds like this is they method he chose (since Sense is automatic when it's assigned to any Sense Group except for Unusual and Mental).

If it's been assigned to one of the other Sense Groups (like the Sight Group), then you can always just do a Flash against that Sense Group (you can't buy a Flash against the Unusual Group).

If it's been assigned to the Unusual Group or "no Sense Group", then you'll need to work on something else....like have someone with a high degree of Stealth sneak up on him. Even if he is _able_ to perceive someone, he still needs to make a PER Roll.

Try checking out Hero Central (http://www.herocentral.net)....you'll find a number of games running (many of them Champions). I believe that there are several that are currently looking for players...or you can start a new one up.

You also may want to try the Player Finder section of the forums.