Simon

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

Fair enough. As a GM, I don't think I would ever give such permission. (Except in the case of the Charges as previously noted.) Off hand, I can't think of any reason to do so. A player who simply doesn't want to pay END for any of his slots, or who wants to have all his slots AE, is not a good enough reason, IMO. "You want all your slots 0 END? Then buy all your slots 0 END. You want all your slots AE? Then buy all your slots AE." That's my reasoning. I don't think I'm being unfair.

 

(not trying to argue)

Not being unfair at all. The book pretty much states exactly that (both 5E and 5ER).

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

What?! Where are you getting this? One of the examples in FREd (I don't have 5ER) specifically shows an MP with the advantage DR is talking about: 50 base points of power with 1/2 END (a +1/4 advantage), resulting in 62 points for the reserve cost and 6 points each for the slots, not 5.

 

You don't get a 120 Active Point slot (with no limitations) for only 6 points. Is this a change in 5ER? You don't have to pay for advantages on slots if the Advantage applies to all of them? You just apply it to the reserve only? That strikes me as very unbalanced. Check the costs of the following MPs:

 

120 Reserve 60 base +1 AE Radius

6u 12d6 EB

6u 4d6 RKA

6u 12d6 Flash

Total cost: 138 points, all slots get AE: Radius for "free," all slots are 120 active.

 

120 Reserve 120 Active points

12u 12d6 EB, AE: Radius (+1)

12u 4d6 RKA, AE: One Hex, No Range Mod (+1)

12u 12d6 Flash, AE: Radius, Non-selective, 1/2 END (+1)

Total cost: 156 points, all slots are 120 active.

 

What I think Dust Raven was originally looking for is this:

 

75 Reserve 60 base +[0 END (+1/2) that only applies w/OAF (-1)], i.e. +(60 x 1/2)/(1+1) = 30/2 = 15

7u Slot A

7u Slot B

7u Slot C

(or alternatively:

15m Slot A

15m Slot B

15m Slot C,

or some combination of the two).

 

You have to take into account the entire active cost of the slot, not just the base cost, as I understand it. If I'm wrong, can you point me to a page number? Preferably one in FREd rather than 5ER.

Rules according to Steve Long. When you place an Advantage onto an MP, the Advantage will affect the function of the slots, but not the cost.

I'm not going to argue the sense in that, except to say that placing Advantages onto the MP itself is something that is considered a "with GM permission only".

You'll find this rule on page 319 of 5ER. Second column. Under the heading "Advantages for Multipower Reserves":

If a character is allowed to apply an Advantage just to the reserve so that it affects all the slots' date=' that Advantage does not affect the cost of the slots.[/quote']

Re: Extra Time (Regeneration Only)

Look at the 5 minutes (and above) levels for Extra Time. They increase at 1/2 per level.

Extra Time (Regeneration Only) has a linear curve at 1/4 per level. Extra Time does not. It has the same curve up to 1 minute, but then changes.

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

Slight aside about HD.

 

I haven't actually used it, but it seems to me from everything people say that HD is a little too restrictive in what it allows you to do. Taking anyone's (even the core rulebook's) rulings as absolutely unbreakable in a system where the GM can and should allow any construct (s)he feels is reasonable just seems wrong. Does HD have a way of turning off such restrictions, or changing them to warnings rather than impossibilities?

 

I've been pondering the possibility of just writing a simple application that allows the creation of a character according to the basic mathematical mechanics of the system, adding pre-canned Advantages and Limitations (those out of the book), and leaving it at that. It shouldn't be too hard. Is it worth it, or can HD be used in this way?

Almost all restrictions can be turned off via a simple toggle in the application preferences (indicating whether or not to use modifier intelligence).

For those few items that are "hard coded" into the application (frex: ultra slots on a multipower costing 1/10 the real point value of the slot's power), you can get around them via custom abilities (frex: creating a list with a cost multiplier of .125 -- which will set all slots to 1/8 their normal cost).

For those who want permanent changes to power constructions, there's the custom template capabilities within HD, which allows you to change most of the rules by which the application operates.

Re: Extra Time (Regeneration Only)

They are? Certainly doesn't look like it. Post Segment 12 for both is a -1 1/4' date=' and progresses an additional -1/4 each step down the time chart.[/quote']

Yup. They are.

 

Extra Time does not progress at -1/4 per level on the time chart.

Re: Extra Time (Regeneration Only)

Other than painting the Power as "regeneration" rather than just another Healing Power' date=' why do we have Extra Time (Regeneration Only)? Seems a bit redundant to me.[/quote']

Because the values are different from the normal Extra Time Limitation.

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

Okay, so the legal and rules approved method of doing this is to buy a Naked Advantage for the Multipower? And that's it? I just go ahead and buy the Multipower as normal (as it would work without the Focus), and then buy a Naked Reduced END (0 END) Advantage with OAF and I'm done?

 

That seems a lot easier than I thought it would be...

Sounds about right....

The hardest part is in describing the construction of the Naked Modifier.

Within HD, you purchase 0-END as the Naked Modifier. When defining the NM, you have two types of Modifiers that you can assign: Naked Modifiers and straight Modifiers. The Naked Modifiers are what you are looking to apply (in this case, 0-END). The straight Modifiers affect the Naked Modifier itself (in this case, Focus).

So you would purchase 0-END as a Naked Modifier and assign Focus as a Limitation on the Naked Modifier (not on the MP).

The concept is simple...as is the implementation....but the explanation is cumbersome.

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

Common Modifier? Is that what it's called? Well, if it has a term for it, it must be legal then.

 

A clarification question re: Common Modifier costs: With a "normal" common modifier (i.e. not charges), does it also increase the cost of the slots (meaning the slots in the example above would cost 9 and not 6 points)?

No, they won't. My statement above was a bit poorly worded. Charges won't affect the cost of the slots regardless of their value (that's why they are a "special case"). Advantages on an MP never affect the cost of the slots (in accordance with the rules). Nor do they increase the maximum Active Cost of the Powers that can be placed in the MP.

So, for example:

a 60 point MP with a +1 AOE (Radius) Advantage placed on it will cost 120 points.

A 12d6 EB slot in the MP will cost 6 points (as an ultra slot). It will still be AOE (all slots will be). Additionally, the 12d6 EB is the maximum that will fit into the MP. A 13d6 EB will have too high of an Active Cost for the MP and will not be allowed in.

Also' date=' given that I'm applying a Common Modifer to a Multipower, do the rules for a Partially Limited MP apply? Or is Limiting a Common Modifier a different case and handled differently, and if so how?[/quote']

Simply appying a comon Modifier to an MP does not denote a partially Limited MP. That's just applying a Limitation or an Advantage.

 

What you're looking to do is to have an Advantage for which a Limitation has been applied to the Advantage itself. That's pretty much the textbook definition of a Naked Advantage.

 

An example of a partially Limited Power would be "6d6 Energy Blast plus 6d6 Energy Blast; x2 END plus 6d6 Energy Blast; x4 END"

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

I don't even know if HD allows for partially limited Power, or a limited Advantge in any case, At least I haven't figured out how.

 

I'm not too sure about the applicibility of a Naked Advantage though. Wouldn't I have to buy one for each slot? Wait, I know that you can apply the Charges modifier to the Reserve and have it apply to each slot, even if it's an Advantage. Can you do with with other Advantages? For example, is the following legal?

 

MP 60 points, 0 END (90 points)

1) EB 12d6 (6 points)

2) Flash Sight Group 12d6 (6 points)

3) RKA 4d6 (6 points)

 

And each slot purchased automatically has 0 END? Have I done this correctly?

 

And just to throw in a monky wrench... what if one of the slots if Autofire?

You can do partially limited powers in HD. You construct them in pretty much the same manner as they are described in 5E and 5ER.

You can also assign 0-END to the MP as a Common Modifier and have it apply to each slot.

I should note (since you mentioned it) that Charges is a "special case" when applied to an MP as a Common Modifier (affecting all slots) -- it will affect each slot (making them 0-END), but if it's an Advantage, it will not increase the cost of the slots. This is in accordance with some rather complex rules in 5E and 5ER (Charges are moderately rediculous in their complexity).

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

the circular reasoning is amazing...

 

why is it illegal to partially limit multipowers?

because that mp could be created as two that combine and thats ilegal.

 

why isn't this other multipower which could as well be built as two mp that combine illegal? because they are not partially limited.

 

net sum of those two statements... why is it illegal to partially limit multipowers? because its illegal to partially limit multipowers.

 

sometimes its just hilarious.

 

thanks!

And others would say the lack of reasoning on your end is equally amazing.

Have fun!

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

Unfortunately I do not have 5ER' date=' so I can't comment on the rules. It does strike me as odd that you can't partially limit a Framework when you can partially limit anything else. Lots of things are functionally identical, but in most cases neither is incorrect. I don't see why Frameworks would be a special case. In either case, I believe the applicable phrase in the case is "with the GM's permission". Since I don't have the book, I don't know if it says that or not, but I'm willing to bet it does. And if it does, then it's legal.[/quote']

5ER states flat out that you cannot partially limit a Framework. No "without GM permission" statement involved.

 

Of course, the Hero Police won't break down your door if you do it anyway....

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

Note that a Reduced Endurance NA would still cost END itself to use base on its own Active Points' date=' unless Reduced Endurance is bought for the Naked Advantage itself.[/quote']

Actually, a correction on that bit:

 

A NA costs END unless the Naked Advantage is Reduced END. The rules have an exception for that case, as it doesn't make much sense to pay END in order to not pay END on a Power....

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

I am not debating whether that rule exists but am discussing two issues...

 

1. is it right, as in does it produce reasonable results, consistent results, in terms of cost and effectiveness.

 

2. is it an example of internal consistency, as you implied in your comment a while back, In fact, it is an internally INCONSISTENT thing.

 

3. it has nothing to do with different multipower slots working together!

 

if all you need to decide that it is right, that it produces accurate results, and that it is INTERNALLY CONSISTENT is that "its written down there", then we really have little more to say on this. The fact that errata exists should be enough to show that just being written down in the rulebook is not enough to warrant such.

Then I suspect that we have little more to say on the matter.

I can see the internal consistencies with the rule. Steve (obviously) can see the internal consistencies (as he wrote teh rule).

You don't.

Such is life.

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

stares dumbfoundedly at the computer screen and struggles to find a polite way to say this.

 

I must say, that is a very "unique" way to look at this.

 

look at these examples of perfectly valid MP...

 

MP 60 ap 72 cp total

1. 9d6 Eb with 3d6 flash 6 cp

2. 3d6 RKA with 1d6 ranged con drain 6 cp

 

Why are these not also a violation of the "two different multipowers cannot link" when they COULD HAVE BEEN WRITTEN AS:

 

MP#1 45

1. 9d6 EB

2. 3d6 RKA

 

MP#2 15

1. 3d6 flash

2. 1d6 ranged con drain

Because in neither case are you applying a Modifier to the MP Cost which does not apply to every slot (in its entirety). Simple as that.

A partially limited MP requires that you have two distinct pools (regardless of whether you list them as the same to save space on writeup), each with their own list of Modifiers.

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

So why do you keep trying to link charging way-out-of-whack 68 pts for the half-push mp to slots working with each other as some sort of consistency thingamajig?

 

truly baffled.

Let's say you wanted to go the "partially Limited MP" route. You want a 60 point reserve, 30 points of which are through a Focus (OIF). So you build it: 30 points straight, 30 points with a -1/2 Limitation (20 points) for a total of 50 points for the MP.

 

A slot in the MP that would be easy to calculate for our example would be a 12d6 EB. Cost breakdown is the same as for the MP, with the final slot cost ending up at 5 points (ultra slot).

 

This is no different from:

 

MP1: 30 point Reserve

3u) 6d6 Energy Blast

 

MP2: 30 point Reserve, all slots: OIF (-1/2)

2u) 6d6 Energy Blast

A partially-Limited MP is functionally no different from two separate MPs whose slots add together.

It is constructed the same way. The points are the same. The usage is a combination of two slots from two different MPs, which goes against the rules of the system.

Partially limiting a slot is fine, but you cannot do that to the MP. As soon as you do, you end up with two separate MPs which are adding together. The fact that you want to list them as a single entity on the sheet is just shorthand and does not change the fact that you have two distinct and separate frameworks (with differing Modifiers) adding to each other.

I don't see how the rules can be any clearer on this. The page that Steve pointed out flat out states that you cannot partially limit a Power Framework.

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

I would charge him 68 points, as that is the cost of the MP when constructed in accordance with the rules of the system.

Your complaint seems to be that the limitation doesn't have enough effect on the cost after you take into account the 1/10 cost break of the MP itself. I don't view that as a valid complaint.

You've got a 60 point slot costing you 6 points and you've got a 36 point slot costing you 4 points. That's they way MPs work -- the difference in the cost of the slots is reduced by a factor of 10 (when dealing with ultra slots).

Internal consistency is in reference to the rules of how Frameworks interact. Two Framework slots cannot add to or modify each other. You cannot Link two Framework slots. You cannot use two Framework slots in an MPA. You cannot have a 6d6 EB in one slot and a 6d6 EB in another slot and expect to end up with a 12d6 EB. The rule disallowing partially-limited power frameworks is utterly consistent with this concept.

To allow partially limited frameworks is inconsistent with the rule that two different framework slots cannot add to or modify each other, as I pointed out in my post (above).

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

Uhhh... ok so now i am really confused.

 

What was all that stuff about two different slots to do with partially limited frameworks? AFAICT there are no two slots doing anything together in the examples given so far.

 

mind is boggling...

 

So, if i get this right, if i have a multipower of "plasma bursts", all of whom are built on 75 ap, all of whom take normal end on the first 50 ap but take double end on the next 25 ap (again all with the low power then higher power extra effort kind of thing), then you are saying i CANNOT reflect this cost in the MP reserve by applying the exact same limitation the exact same way on the reserve as i did every single slot?

 

If i want a brick tricks multipower, and i want to have the tricks also reflect my "super pushing" (an extra 30 ap of effect at 10xend) just like i do my strength, then the MP reserve SHOULD be priced with the extra 30 ap at FULL PRICE, ignoring the x10 end?

 

or finally, the following two multipowers should cost almost exactly the same... 4 pts different

 

60 ap Mp total cost 72 pts

1 12d6 Eb (6 pt)

2 4d6 rka (6 pt)

 

60 ap Mp total cost 68 pts

1 12d6 eb 6d6 Eb with normal end and 6d6 with x10 end (4 pt)

2 4d6 rka with 2d6 normal end and 3d6 x10 end (4 pt)

 

and definitely absolutely not cost...

 

60 ap Mp total with 30 pts at regular cost and 30 pts at x10 end -4 cost for total cost 44 pts

1 12d6 eb 6d6 Eb with normal end and 6d6 with x10 end (4 pt)

2 4d6 rka with 2d6 normal end and 3d6 x10 end (4 pt)

 

even though this comes the closet to keep the same cost ratio between the limited powers and the unlimited powers???

 

Allow me to say... ahhh, the soothing joys of the highly precise, untra-consistent, not-arbitrary, lauded HERO math!

 

See, had someone handed me these three powers as Mp suites, i would never, without the HERO math to guide me, have reached the conclusion that the difference in the first two or 4 cp total was "right."

 

had i just used my subjective judgement based on experience and reason, i would have thought the difference between the two multipowers in cost should have been about the same proportion as between the powers if bought normally, individually.

 

Silly, silly me.

It's not that complicated, really. Quite the opposite.

I'm sorry that you don't value internal consistency in your games. I do....so I'm quite happy with the rule.

As an aside, Steve just gave the page reference in 5ER which explicity states that a partially limited Framework is not allowed under the rules (see the rules questions forum).

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

Huh? What?

 

Ok let me get this straight...

 

Lets take for instance the following power, for instance, the following power...

 

A firebolt with a low power easy-to-use and a full strength but very tiring level, bought as a 12d6 eb with 4d6 partially limited to 2xend (60 ap and 53 rp)

 

You are saying that somehow this power cannot be in a multipower slot? its illegal or somehow abusive to have this eb costing 8 end for a full strength shot in a MP slot but one at nornal end costing 6 per shot or one at double end costing 12 per shot are fine?

 

Well, i certainly haven't read 5er or looked at the FAQ recently, but having multiple powers in a single slot of a multipower like say a falsh+eb combo power, hasn't been a problem in decades, either legally iirc or in practice, and i certainly wouldn't treat a partially limited power as such anyway, even though hero creator tends to portray it that way... or used to.

 

I really don't get the logic here.

 

probably a good thing.

no....a partially limited slot is just fine. A partially limited Framework is not.

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

Just as an aside, I think that I can understand the reasoning on this: two Framework slots (either in the same Framework or different Frameworks) cannot add to or modify the other. No Linking of two different Framework slots, no adding of Powers, no MPAs, etc.

Let's say you wanted to go the "partially Limited MP" route. You want a 60 point reserve, 30 points of which are through a Focus (OIF). So you build it: 30 points straight, 30 points with a -1/2 Limitation (20 points) for a total of 50 points for the MP.

A slot in the MP that would be easy to calculate for our example would be a 12d6 EB. Cost breakdown is the same as for the MP, with the final slot cost ending up at 5 points (ultra slot).

This is no different from:

MP1: 30 point Reserve

3u) 6d6 Energy Blast

MP2: 30 point Reserve, all slots: OIF (-1/2)

2u) 6d6 Energy Blast

Those two MPs cannot be used together. You don't get a 12d6 EB out of that. At best (if the GM allows for MPA using two different Frameworks), you get 2 6d6 Energy Blasts.

In short (too late): this all flows from the rule that you cannot have two different framework slots add to or modify each other (5ER 310). In order for that rule to hold, you cannot have a partially Limited (or partially Advantaged) Framework.

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

It's not legal. The book is rather poorly worded on that, but you cannot partially limit a Framework. Something I've checked with Steve on in the past (on several occasions).

The question has come up on the rules questions forum before (some time ago). You'll find the answer here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21407

Re: Leaping is persistant?

Hmm' date=' from a stand point of real world physics, leaping of course has acceleration. Two in fact: one to start and one to stop. Maybe a leap got defined as not having acceleration from a game stand point for some reason?[/quote']

Errr...you do realize that Leaping is defined as a Constant Power in 5E (and 5ER), correct? The same as any other Movement Power (Except Teleportation).

Re: Leaping is persistant?

Ack! There's one of those poor souls who haven't been de-Simonized yet!

We are a collective of one.

Re: Leaping is persistant?

HD lists Leaping as Constant (which, handily enough, is what 5ER lists it as).

Re: Fixed/Flex Multipower

Also, if you want to "trick" HD into allowing it, you'll have a much easier time by just enabling Cost Multipliers....then you can put the items into a List and "roll your own" Framework.

Set the cost of the list, set the multiplier on each slot....and you're good to go.

Re: Fixed/Flex Multipower

While strictly not rules legal (but there's a loophole from a certain perspective), you can always just make two slots. The rules state that you can't have two slots that are Linked together, but don't ban two slots that just add together (I think, I haven't seen the text in 5ER).

 

You can write it up as:

 

u 5 Slot One: 50 Active Points of a Power

m 10 Slot Two: +50 Active Points to Power

 

You can't use Slot Two unless you already have enough points in the reserve alloted to Slot One (because, as with using a HA without STR, you can't add to something without using what you are adding to).

Actually, from a straight rules-perspective, that's not legal.

Two different slots of a Power Framework cannot add to or modify each other. In the same way that you can't use two different slots in an MPA.

As for having to "trick" HD, the only reason it's not there as an option is because it is not rules legal. HD is built for 5th edition rules. You can make it do what you want, but you'll need to do a little "tricking" in order to get there, as you are working outside of the rules of the system.