Simon

The reason (or at least part of it) for all of the complexity is that the reduction in cost from an EC is taken from the Active Cost of a slot (before Limitations are applied).

When you're dealing with a Compound Power, where the Limitations and Active Costs of each part vary, you need to "balance" things in such a way that the overall reduction in cost is inline with what the EC should provide and each individual part of the Compound Power is reduced in proportion to its Active Cost.

Because this reduction in cost is based on the Active Cost (not the Real Cost) of each part and is performed before Limitations are applied (just like with any other slot), things become a bit complicated.

Toss onto that the basic rule that you cannot reduce a slot to an Active Cost which is less than the Active Cost of the EC itself, and you get even more complexity.

Trust me, it was a royal pain in the arse to code in ;-)

To simply verbalize the rules on this (which I should have done originally):

Definitions:

CP

The Compound Power that we're dealing with

part

An individual component of the CP

Effect Active Cost

The Active Cost of the part after it is adjusted by subtracting the EC discount

For each part of the CP, you need to calculate the percentage of the overall discount from the EC to apply. This percentage is determined by the ratio of the part's Active Points to the overall Active Points of the CP. For example:

EC value/"discount": 20

Total AP of the CP: 40

AP for a given part: 15

15/40 = 3/8

3/8 * 20 = 7.5 = discount for this part.

15 - 7.5 = 7.5 = effective active cost for this part

If the "discount" for a given part is greater than one half of the Active Cost of that part, then you adjust the effective active cost to be equal to the discount. In other words, the following must always hold true:

effective active cost >= discount*2

Once you have determined the effective active cost for each part of the CP, you apply the limitations to each part's effective active cost (rounding rules apply here). This gives you the real cost for each part.

Add together the real costs of each part, and you will get the total real cost for the CP.

It's close...but not quite there.

Each power in a compound power is reduced proportionally to its active points.

In your example, you have 20 points of total reduction to deal with from the EC. You have 40 total Active Points of Powers in your compound power (or partially limited power -- same thing). So far, so good.

Power 1 has 15 AP. 15/40 = 3/8. (3/8)*20 = 7.5 AP (effective)

Power 2 has 10 AP. 10/40 = 1/4. (1/4)*20 = 5 AP (effective)

Power 3 has 10 AP. 10/40 = 1/4. (1/4)*20 = 5 AP (effective)

Power 4 has 5 AP. 5/40 = 1/8. (1/8)*20 = 2.5 AP (effective)

Now we apply Limitations:

Power 1 = 7.5 AP = 7.5 RC

Power 2 = 5 AP / (1+.5) = 5/1.5 = 3.3 RC

Power 3 = 5 AP / (1+1) = 5/2 = 2.5 RC

Power 4 = 2 AP / (1+1.5) = 2.5/2.5 = 1 RC

Add these up, and your total Real Cost for the slot is 14 points.

Note that this entire process is considered one "calculation", so rounding only occurs at the end. The 'effective active" is not a calculation in itself, as you're not calculating the active points, you're just doing the first part of the single calculation to determine the portion of the discount that the ability will get from the EC.

Originally posted by tesuji

you are simply wrong, or citing a house rule.

 

In HERO5, you can place charges for each slot, whether advantage or lim OR you can put charages on the multipower pool (reducing the pool cost but limiting the total uses of the MP) OR you can do both. All are legal and supported within the rules. There is even a section IIRC under multipowers which specifically discusses these options.

Neither wrong nor a house rule, though I suspect we may be saying the same thing here. I'll go into some detail below to hopefully clear up any confusion.....

If you place the Charges Limitation on the MP as a whole (reducing the cost of the MP itself), the the sum total of the charges for the MP (all slots combined) is the number of Charges that you have selected. Each slot gains the benefit of 0-END from the Charges, but the cost of the slot is unaffected by the Charges Limitation.

If you place the Charges Limitation on an individual slot within the MP (not reducing the cost of the MP itself), the that one slot has the number of Charges specified. The cost of the slot is altered, but the cost of the MP is not affected at all.

For example:

If you have a blaster rifle with four different settings and the rifle only has enough charge for four shots, regardless of type, then you would place the Charges Limitation on the MP for the blaster. The cost of the MP would be reduced. The cost of the individual slots would not be affected, though they would get the benefit of the 0-END from the Charges. You could fire off four rounds of a single type, one of each type, or any combination therein, so long as the total shots fired did not exceed four.

If, however, you have a bow and arrow with several different types of arrows, then the MP for the bow would not get the Charges Limitation....the Charges Limitation would be placed on each slot, representing the number of each type of arrow that you had. The cost of the MP as a whole is not affected, just the cost of each slot.

I've spent quite some time going over the rules for Charges with Steve....this is the way they are supposed to work.

Originally posted by Arthur

Not necessarily. The following construct is legal:

 

30 Multipower

3 u 6d EB, 16c

3 u 2d RKA, 16c

 

Now I concur that this is another area that is not balanced. Champions III introduced a rule that charges are halved when placed in slots of a MP like this. That is, these would get only 8c, not 16. I was surprised that FRED did not incorporate this as a base rule.

Yes, read the last sentence of my original post: If you want a specific number of chartes for each slot, you place the modifier on each slot and not on the MP as a whole, which is precisely what you did.

The cost of the MP itself is not affected by the above construct (nor should it be, per the rules).

If you put the Modifier on the MP itself, then the entire MP (all slots) would have a total of 16 Charges.

Originally posted by tesuji

I weigh in on the side of at that point its just FX.

 

64 charges or 0 end is a non-issue in enough cases to make them functionally equivalent, which is why they cost the same. Heck for most superhero games, my charges for powers usually topped at +0 (8 charge clips, 4 clips each = rarely needing to chaneg clip in a fight and able to handle four fights without reloading) although on occasion it did get to +1/4 (12 round clips with 8 clips or 8 round clips with around 16 clips) and i cannot recall enough times to fill a hand that I ever ran out.

 

While 0 end is IN THEORY better than 64 charges, in practice it will play the same, except for the once in a great while special scenarios which basically occur barely often enough to be FX.

 

Now, FWIW, i prefer as game design for CHARGES to be just a limit, a flat restriction on "uses per day" and let you buy 0 end yourself instead of having it included, but thats me being anal cuz i don't like advantages or limitations that "go both ways" as a design element.

 

If you want to find problems with the charges system, it doesn't happen at the +1/2 stage...

 

it happens at the +0 stage where four 8 round clips is enough to handle most fights with next to no "flaw" to offset the 0 end used...

 

it happens when fuel charges are used for almost anything... it used to be continuous charges but fuel charges seem to outdo them now...

 

and it may happen in multipowers where charges are bought for the slots producing a lot of shots for little points.

 

I think i would look at these other issues before i worried too much about 0 end vs 33++ charges...

 

but again, thats just me being anal.

Fuel Charges cannot be applied unless Continous Charges are bought. Continuous Charges cannot be applied to non-Constant Powers (or Powers that purchase the Continuous Advantage separately from Charges).

Charges placed on a MP affect the entire MP. They are not applied to each slot. For example, if you have 12 Charges on your MP, the combined total of ALL slots is 12....not 12 per slot. If you want 12 per slot, you buy Charges on each slot, but not on the MP as a whole.

Originally posted by Arthur

It's simply a flaw in the system. We all want to avoid admitting that, but it's true.

 

Power 1: 2d RKA; 64 charges (+1/2).

 

Power 2: 2d RKA; 0 END

 

Power 1 can fire 64 times and you're out. Power 2 can fire an infinite number of times. When you introduce Autofire, that just delays the onset of the problem to +1 or so (250 c).

 

Nothing's perfect. Sorry.

I honestly don't think that this is a flaw.

All it's saying is that at a certain point, the "limitation" of having only X charges isn't really limiting the character enough to be worth any points.

For Charges, that cutoff lies at 33. Frankly, I agree with that. I've played characters with charges fairly often in the past, and when they have more than 12 I rarely have an issue running out. It's rare that a character is in combat more than once a day, and given that most combats are fairly short-lived, it's rare that you get a chance to fire off that many rounds.

Now, with the new MPA rules and such, it helps make Charges more limiting, but I still feel that 33 is a good cutoff for it not being limiting enough to warrant any points.

Also note that Charges will max out at a +0 (regardless of the number of Charges) if the Power is already 0-END.

So that extra +1/2 that you're spending is because you are gaining the benefit of 0-END from the Charges. If you apply it separately, you don't have to pay the +1/2.

Originally posted by JmOz

Dan,

 

Victor is from Belgium, I would assume that when he asked for it in plain english he might have wanted help understanding the rules, being rude is not nesesary.

I wasn't being rude, so come down off of your high horse.

My assumption was that he didn't know what FREd referred to (common enough....especially for someone both new to the boards and from another country). My followup post was the same as my first one, but specifying the book in a way that he would be able to identify....and explaining what FREd meant so that he could recognize the term in the future.

Turn to page 206 of the Hero System Fifth Edition Rule Book (the big black book that contains all the rules for 5th edition...also known as FREd). Start reading.

Originally posted by VictorVonDoom

What is a fixed slot and a (u)ltraslot?

Read page 206 in FREd

Re: Re: Re: Trolls

Originally posted by Monolith

I think it was just one person who switched accounts in the middle of the evening. Shulker started posting about 10 minutes after Stalker, and he even continued Stalker's points in a couple of threads. It's just one guy mad at DOJ for whatever reason.

Shadow Stalker = Shadow Shulker = Centurion = Stormbringer

There was one other account in there as well...but i don't recall it offhand.....

Heya Steve!

I just wanted to post a quick followup to the question on Partially Limited Characteristics, as I think the angle that the poster was getting at was the rounding rules (and I want to make sure that I'm still doing things right in HD):

If a character has 16 CON and then buys +7 CON; OIHID, the way HD is calculating the ED is as follows:

16/5 + 7/5 = 3.2 + 1.4 = 3+1 = 4

Rounding occurs at each calculation, which is taken to be each incremental purchase of CON. It's done this way because the total CON may include some purchases which are No Figured Characteristics (or other issues in some cases).

Is this correct, or should it be 16/5 + 7/5 = 3.2 + 1.4 = 4.6 = 5?

LOL!

The test went very well....the chat normally gets hopping during the scheduled chats with Darren and Steve....that's your best bet to check back in ;-)

Hey all!

I've (finally) had a chance to go through the chat server code and start to refine it. Hopefully this will prevent any crashes during the Monday/Thursday chats.

To that extent, I could use your help. I need to "stress test" the chat. I'll be in the chat room all evening today from now (~4pm CT) until about 9pm CT. If you have a minute, please stop into the chat and see how it works for you.

Thanks in advance!

Dan

Hey all!

I've (finally) had a chance to go through the chat server code and start to refine it. Hopefully this will prevent any crashes during the Monday/Thursday chats.

To that extent, I could use your help. I need to "stress test" the chat. I'll be in the chat room all evening today from now (~4pm CT) until about 9pm CT. If you have a minute, please stop into the chat and see how it works for you.

Thanks in advance!

Dan

Originally posted by Tim

Cool new pack. One I definetly want to get. My question is what Cedit cards does the online store take?

Currently, they only take Visa and Mastercard.

Steve -

Is Extra Dimensionaly Movement inherently Constant, or is it an Instant Power?

On the summary table of the Powers in FREd (pg 87), it's listed as an Instant Power.

However, under the Power's main description (pg 111), it's listed as Constant.

I checked the Errata and didn't see anything on this....

Thanks in advance (once again)!