PamelaIsley

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams? The difference between VIPER / HYDRA and EuroCrimeUltimateSinisterBurstLordsStar is that VIPER is a cell-like organization. Governments and superheroes routinely crush bits and pieces of VIPER and the organization continues. This is because VIPER's leaders aren't committing every single act of terrorism and crime that the organization plots in person. When EuroStar launches an attack, EuroStar shows up. When the Supreme Serpent launches an attack, a bunch of third level troopers and, maybe, a member or two of Dragon Branch show up. I think this is a major distinction, but apparently I'm the only one because I have completely failed to articulate this point with any clarity. The difference between Talisman and EuroCrimeUltimateSinisterBurstLordsStar is that Talisman, presumably, isn't building the Hall of Doom in the middle of Florida, flying around in a Death Star-like airship, or showing up in Madrid trying to wreck the Spanish economy. I just have to think that individual supervillains would be so much less conspicuous, but obviously I can't know that for a fact and some people disagree.

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams? There's a big difference between special forces, UNTIL, and even VIPER and teams like EuroCrimeUltimateSinisterBurstLordsStar, which come together once a quarter or so to commit an absurd crime, happen to contain the proper mix between tanks, gadgeteers, blasters, and skilled hand-to-hand combatants, hang out during their offtime playing bridge at the TerrorHallDromeofDoom, and who inexplicably aren't hunted down by world governments and superteams.

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf? That is a bit harsh. The August 15 post by Darren Watts is the first I heard of the specific situation and he said it would be a matter of weeks (something that has turned out to not be true). I hardly think asking about this is an enormously rude thing to do. Asking a company when its products will be available for customers to purchase and receiving that information really isn't such a privilege. I know the company isn't being malicious, but they have said they de-prioritized it, so its not like there isn't some information that has been provided since this situation started. What is the big deal about asking to receive updates, especially when things have changed?

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf? I totally agree Goradin. The solo book is by far the most useful one and it's a shame it is in such a grim limbo state.

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams? I completely agree that supervillain teams in Champions are a gaming convention to provide a challenge to a typical group of 3-4 players using "normal" superheroes. The fact they feel so gamey is one reason (along with my view of their implausibility in anything resembling the world posited by Champions, DC, and Marvel) I dislike them.

Re: Is Valerian Scarlet a Real Champions Character? Excellent! A perfect excuse to pick that book up, despite not liking Vibora Bay or Black Mask in general.

I've just played through most of Vibora Bay for the first time and I wondered if Scarlet Valerian is a real champions character or something created just for CO? I can't find any information on her anywhere using Google, so I assumed she was only created for the game. If I recall correctly, there is a one sentence mention of her in the new Champions Universe book. If she is a Champions character, what book features her write-up and information? The Vibora Bay supplement? She isn't mentioned in any of the summaries I've seen.

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams? Supervillain teams are very different from large, faceless criminal empires that operate in the shadows and, for the most part, have cell-like organizations. I was unable to get this point across earlier, but teams like EuroStar (in particular) do not operate from the shadows, are far from faceless, and definitely do not have a cell-like organization. They are a small group that must personally commit every act of terrorism or crime that they plot. They are also an incredible concentration of power that is insanely dangerous. The Ultimates, Destroyers, and Sunburst are similar, and also bear no resemblance to the mafia or other underworld groups (or even, in my opinion, something like VIPER, DEMON, HYDRA, or Dr. Destroyer's original organization).

Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but...

Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... It's not that similar.

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams? It isn't so much about real world logic as internal consistency. To me, villain teams are internally inconsistent with comic book worlds that try for a modicum of realism (versus pure Silver Age-type settings). My belief is reinforced by how DC has used villain teams (since I'm biased toward DC comics and their universe) and how I perceive the Champions world and its villain teams. They just come across as very "gamey" in Champions.

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams? I knew Bin Laden would get mentioned and I don't want to discuss him or his organization, but I will say that he did not put on a brightly colored costume and personally commit every act of terrorism he plotted. If he had, one would think he would have been easier to catch. And his organization fits with what I was saying about super-powered squads making more sense as part of a larger organization that exists for other purposes, like HYDRA, COBRA, VIPER, or Dr. Destroyer's legions.

Re: What do you think of supervillain teams? There is a big difference between a stable team framework like the X-Men, Avengers, and Justice League that feature periodic turnover and villain teams that simply disintegrate after every failed operation and then are revived later, bearing no resemblance to the old version of the team except in name. The Injustice League / Society and Society of Supervillains comes to mind in this regard. With very few exceptions in DC comics (I'm not a Marvel expert) most villain teams are just change-of-pace constructions designed to reinforce the importance of a plot line or be the feature of a plot line themselves. And they work quite badly. The Injustice League's latest incarnation (where Luthor takes the entire Justice League prisoner, only to lose because Batman unlocks everyone) is a great example of something that looks cool on paper and then the plot ends up not working. I don't like villain teams. I find the idea pretty implausible, and not only because of the "evil destroys evil" concept. Supervillain teams represent an enormous concentration of power, so much power that I can't imagine them being "allowed" to exist for very long. If something like EuroStar really formed and committed atrocities as often as they seem to do virtually every government in Europe, plus the United States, and every superhero they could influence would be hunting EuroStar 24/7. EuroStar isn't HYDRA, that can afford to chop off a limb or two and let more grow back -- they are a small team, once located, they are in some trouble, especially since about everyone seems to know their relative power level. EuroStar (and other Champions teams) is a designed super-team, so it doesn't suffer from the Injustice League's ad hoc, "how on Earth do these guys fit together" problems (although that raises other issues). This is another major issue with villain teams. Batman Rogues, Wonder Woman rogues, and Superman rogues hardly belong in the same universe, much less on the same team. So every time I see Scarecrow ("you're made of straw!") standing next to Circe (basically a goddess) and Lex Luthor in a Dr. Destroyer-level Kryptonite fueled battlesuit, it just seems ridiculous. A team like GRAB (which seems patterned on something like Flash's Rogues) makes even less sense to me. People who want to just commit low, under-the-radar crimes for the purpose of amassing wealth would go out of their way to avoid calling attention to themselves. They wouldn't want to attract superheroes at all. The best way to mess that up would be to group together with other supervillains and become a lot more conspicuous, and more of a perceived threat. Why Bluejay, with her battlesuit, would need support from other members of GRAB to take down a bank security guard is beyond me. And if a superhero team shows up to stop said robbery, the game is over for that kind of team anyway, even if GRAB is powerful enough to fight their way out of one botched crime. Ideally GRAB would want its crimes to be blamed on regular criminals; instead, GRAB is well known and even hangs out with Lady Blue, one of the most famous villainesses in Champions. Supervillain teams also raise questions about base locations (leading to yet further suspension of disbelief that evil organizations can conceal an unlimited number of Terror Dromes and Hall of Dooms all around the world) and infrastructure. A supervillain trying to conquer the world or whatever also risks more leaks, dissent, and premature attention with each superpowered lackey or partner he recruits. Supervillain teams, to me, only make sense as part of some huge organization that already is providing infrastructure and logistical support for other reasons like VIPER, HYDRA, or Dr. Destroyer. There the supervillains would have an easier time blending in and being part of something big enough to justify both being together and following hierarchical orders. Villain teams based on some kind of a partnership concept (of which there are very few, since every team has at least some kind of a leader) seem even less plausible. I could be wrong. This is just my opinion. But supervillain teams seem like gaming contrivances in Champions and tricks to make a comic issue seem a bit more important. GMs need something to challenge 3-4 superheroes so Champions rolls out a dozen or more supervillian teams. When you find your fourth or fifth Crimelords clone in a book, it just starts to feel a bit strained. When those teams all seem constructed to provide some kind of an ideal combat/tactical/power mix, it seems even less believable. What are the odds that there are so many supervillains in the world that someone like Fiacho could find individuals willing to both submit their power to his and happen to fit some sort of a tactical need on his team? It borders on absurd. I don't like villain teams in comics either because they tend to be used very poorly used and written (again, see any appearance of a "Legion of Doom" type team in DC comics). Just my opinion, not very well expressed, but since I was the member referred to in the original post, I thought I should comment.

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf? I'll blog about villain teams or start another thread. I don't want to derail this one. I like the characters that make up a lot of those teams, but I find the idea of long-term, steady supervillain teams to be somewhat silly. Villain teams are best as one-shot groups like the Injustice League.

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf? Villain teams as a concept. I like a lot of the members of Champions villain teams (Mentalla, Gigaton, Morgaine, Sunburst come to mind).

Re: Bloodbath Comic My goodness this is well done. Congratulations.

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf?

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf? Thank you for the reply. That's much less positive news. Hopefully we'll see this book someday. As much as I hate villain teams, now I wish Talisman, Howler, and Foxbat were members of one.

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf? As I said, they can completely ignore me if they wish. It's up to them to decide how best to deal with potential customers and manage demand for this particular product. And my post is in direct response to the Darren Watts post that actually did provide a sliver of information (if not actual hope). This entire situation is all very curious. I'd say more, but I don't feel like saying anything controversial. But I feel far from "privileged."

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf? Although I appreciate it when Steve Long or Darren Watts post on the forum, answer questions, and interact with fans and readers, I hardly think we are "privileged" if a company provides updates on its product release schedule, since their goal, presumably, is to sell things to people who want to buy them. That's a very odd choice of words. I don't consider myself privileged, for example, when a car company tells when the new 2012 models are available, rather than just quietly releasing them with no fanfare (like that would ever happen). Considering that the status of other books is constantly updated in the weekly summary, and this book is always conspicuously absent, I also don't feel out of line waiting two weeks (when our only update in months said it is a matter of weeks) to simply ask for an update. After all, they can completely ignore me and there is no other way to get this information (I've asked some sellers and they have no info on it).

Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... I'm not a 3E expert and there are posts and posts on this over at the M&M forum, but my problems were: 1. Powers have been further simplified, reducing pretty much all powers to flavor text coupled with a few effects. The affliction effect, for example, has replaced a lot of damage powers. This is movement toward the Hero System, which might please many people here, but I found it made the system less appealing. If I wanted a toolkit for making powers, why wouldn't I just use Hero to begin with? 2. Ability scores have become more "silver age", allowing for less granularity at the bottom. This is partly because of the elimination of the base 10 (STR might be 1 for example, instead of 11). The system also moved further away from a base D20 system in very superficial (almost cosmetic ways). This isn't likely to bother Hero gamers, but changing all the names of abilities and making it more foreign to people coming to it from other D20 games seems nonsensical to me. One of the major appeals to M&M was always that you could talk DnD players into trying it because it looked like they were playing the same system, just in tights. As I said, other people could go into more detail on things that are wrong with it (beyond just the staggering amount of errata that was required). Those two changes, plus the extremely poor DC character constructions, ensured that I wouldn't be using my DCA book.

Re: This is sort of morbid curiosity but... I have played M&M 2E extensively and about 18 months ago I thought I would try Hero (mostly because it had a COM stat and split lethal and nonlethal damage more logically; 6E, of course, eliminated COM, hilariously and tragically, and the damage system and END system weren't all I was hoping for). I still prefer M&M, for a lot of reasons that I won't detail here. I love the Champions Universe (despite coming to it for the first time in the fall of 2009) and own a ton of Champions books (5E and now 6E), but I'm not sure the system is as accessible as M&M. 3E M&M is a step backwards, in my opinion, and solves none of the flaws of 2E, while stripping away some detail and granularity for reasons I can't quite fathom. The DC heroes and villains builds are also very, very sloppy.

Re: Champions Villains Volume Three: Solo Villains when will it be on the shelf? I wonder, since its been two weeks, if there is any further update on this?

Re: Champions Universe I finally saw this book in person the other day and while I love the layout and the use of color, the artwork is . . . well below par. I was very disappointed after the art in the 6th edition Hero books was such a step up. Very disappointing.

Re: How do you build a vampire template in 6E? When you design a summoning power, you must specify the total point value of the thing being summoned. Besides the conceptual nightmare (that something new is being created rather than something being transformed into something different), this means that a vampire transform must either be so powerful as to represent any possible point value + the cost of the vampire template, or that the new vampire is going to lose some of its old abilities. Hence my point that summoning can only effectively represent a vampire transformation where you imagine that the result of the transformation does not contain all of the character sheet of the original target. A vampire template is added to existing abilities, that's why summoning's cap (based on the points spent on the power) does not mesh very well with what I consider a vampire transformation. I feel like this point has been made a bunch of times over the course of this thread. I think others on page 7 went into resurrection. I don't even grasp how that remotely works, so I don't have a rebuttal. Transform is clearly the power that is supposed to model this (at least my conception of a vampire transformation), but that bizarre heal back requirement means you have to change the rules to make it work. I'm not as fond of that as others.