Farkling

Well geeze...i've forgotten now, that was five or six posts ago. How about one of your ever present analyse versus various defense levels. EB - BODY and STUN KA - BODY and STUN, using 1d6-1 Stun Multiple KA - BODY and STUN, using 1d6-1 Stun Muiltiple, only multiplyed by the PENETRATING BODY My gut instinct says that Shrike's method is still unbalanced. I thin it would gurantee lower average Stun than equivalent EB's agasinst bricks, and higher average Stun versus "partial rDEF's"

I thought a little on this... The Ka's yield a wider varaince. My gut feeling is that a standard attack is far more likely to yield average STUN results than a KA, as stated above. A 12d6 EB hits the average far more frequently than the 4d6 KA, simply by volume of dice. I think. The 12d6 EB can't have the same bell curve percentage of hitting high or low. I dug a little HTML sheet that normalizes a statistical curve out of my archives. I got it off the net during my statistics coursr. for 4d6, ~60% of results give us 11-16 BODY, and ~90% returns 8-19 BODY. As previously discussed, the Stun Multiple ranges from 1-4 ~90% of the time, and 1-3 ~60% of the time. So the KA yields 11-48 STUN 60% of the time, and returns 8-76 STUN 90% of the time. With my available tools, I intuit from the two curves that the normal attack returns 11-13 BODY 60% of the time, and 10-14 BODY 90% of the time. Figured by hand would allow plotting the intersection of the two curves...I think. I don't remember how to really. The STUN is 37-46 60% o fthe time, and 32-51 STUN 90% of the time. Hmmmm. A tremendous difference in the minimum STUN, though the high occurences are wider. So my gut instinct about the bell curve is right. Who knew? And here's an old thought; thinking about probabilities is tricky business and in many cases is counterproductive, because it can obscure the intuitions we get from playtesting. Those intuitions are usually right. The mathematical machinations are usually flawed

Keneton:: I use a flat 3 Stun Multiple for Agents in large groups. i have 5-7 players a night, and with a mass of 20 agents (or 30 or so straights if its gang/police related) I prefer to sacrifice the extra rolls for speed of play. Hmm. no input from anyone on what percentage of CU characters do not have resistant defenses? how about statistics on characters that bought enough to stop body from pistols and nothing else? I cannot STAND the concept of a target being killed without ever taking significant STUN damage though. It just doesn't work for me. I need to build a spreadsheet and look at the (Shrike?) method of applying the STUN multiple to BODY that penetrates the defenses. How does that interact coupled with Penetration on a KA ?? Yes, I want a player or significant NPC to have the capability to STUN Grond with an RKA. Let me remind you, a 4d6 RKA is in the realm of ANTI-TANK weaponry! That should have an outside chance of stunning Grond. It isn't 50% by any means. I'm perfectly happy using x3 for "Real Weapons", but that's a streamlining option. Environmental multipliers used against conscious characters of significance can also use x3 multiplier, as they are actively moving and defending themselves. i think this is mimicking in part the concept of applying the SM to penetrating BODY damage. i fully expect the pickup GM to go with a dice rolling program and hit locations, since the game is in his home office and he runs at his desk. He'd be Fantasy Heroing anyways. Let's see. Grond hit with an average roll from the agent wielding a 4d6 RKA Energy Bazooka will take 56 STUN - 70 STUN approximately 33% of the time. The agent has to roll high on ALL his dice for this to occur. The 70 STUN might daze old Grond. With Cory as an example, I can say that a 70 STUN hit will put her into "seeking cover" or "unorthodox assault" mode. At x3 STUN (around 42 STUN per hit), she will simply advance and attack, as she can take it for a few phases, and has at least one extra phase on the attacker. I did make an error on the curve calculations though, it is actually Moral:: Don't do math at O'Dark Thirty. The 5d6 RKA Energy Bazooka (Heavy Weapons Special, 14- Activation, Bulky) gives us a different average set. SM 1 = 18, SM 2 = 18, SM 3 = 35, SM 4 = 53, SM 5 = 78, SM 6 = 88. We've jumped a category. This fellow is more dangerous. He is edging into the category of 50% chance for significant STUN (53 - 88), with a 33% chance for Dangerous levels (78-88 STUN). This is on AVERAGE. But then again, this weapon is better than any anti-tank laser on the market, and doesn't require a tractor trailer for the cooling system. The x3 Average generated is 53 STUN. Dangerous indeed. I think this is the level of a Blast Furnace...but I haven't got my book handy. Theoretically, let's move up to the 6d6 Energy Bazooka, popularly named the "Suicide Gun" here at VIPER Research and Devrlopment. ROCKET EXHAUST in Champions does 6d6 Energy Killing (and 18d6 Physical I think). They call this the "Suicide Gun" at VIPER because the guy that carries it into combat is typically blown to pieces by heroes and villains alike (6d6 RKA, Bulky, Six Shots, Bulky, 14- Activation, Side Effect - missing Activation Roll causes charge loss and random discharge) unless the gun actually detonates while in use (random discharge hits wielder). Average BODY => 21, so SM 1 = 21, SM 2 = 21, SM 3 = 42, SM 4 = 63, SM 5 = 84, SM 6 = 105. This reduces normal people to a fine mist. Armored agents may leave a partial corpse, probably the armored parts. It may be 66% for significant average damage, it may be 50%. Let's call it 58% for significant average STUN damage. Grond may even think about cover. Cory will. Even the x3 damage is definitely nothing Cory would shrug off. 63 STUN should be an attention getter to anyone. I DID check one thing in depth on my spreadsheet. At the breakpoint DC's (3,6,9 .. 60) the killing attack does 1 extra BODY per 6 DC's, and loses 2 STUN per 5 DC's when compared to equivalent Normal Attacks. If you use a x3 STUN multiple, the average STUN damage is THE SAME between the KA and the EB at all levels (on the breakpoints) i'm going to see if I can figure out how to check every damage class. Where is Gary and all his numbers? I thought he liked this theoretical stuff? He's much better with spreadsheets than I am, for sure. Maybe he's tired of arguing with Hugh and I. Though Hugh and I aren't really on the same side here.

PS - for the assault weapons, well, I tend to use flat multiples for agents, and only roll occasionally. Don't tell the gaming group.

Now I know how Gary feels. Trebuchet; I still don't picture the mechanic as broken. I've played since 1982 (I think it was, not that I wanted to date myself). I do have a broad base to draw from, and am not a Johnny come lately. I am less than a year as a steady poster on these boards though. I never heard of Fuzion until after FRED came out. how's that for isolated from the HERO community? The drama lies in the fact that KA's are suuposed to be DANGEROUS, and if the STUN lotto is wildly unpredictable, it fosters characters who respect Killing attacks (Batman, DareDevil, Many X-Men), versus the Superman types who will simply stand in front of them regardless. Cory has "mosly invulneralbe" as a psych limit. slightly different in play from overconfidence. I believe Killing Attacks are DESIGNED to be unreliable. Especially in a standard Champion Universe. From what I've seen skimming over the "genre correct" characters in the HERO books, there ARE characters that a Killing Attack will blow to pieces. Or am I wrong? Collectively you guys own all the books, what percentage of characters have resistant defenses? i can't even look up the Champions now, as I still have not located my genre book. I think it has been permanently borrowed by an ex-player. ANY resistant defenses allow for FULL PD and/or ED to be used against the STUN damage from a KA, this seems to be a design construct to reduce the STUN lotto. Has every CU character purchased resistant defenses? I am really curious now. Perhaps then it IS a flaw that the designers are incapable of seeing/admitting? We'll never know from them, as Steve has been adamant in his refusals to discuss design philosophy. We'd have to elect a delegate to go buy him a pint or something and get him to discuss it. I haven't changed any game mechanics to keep my bloodthirsty players in hand, not even in the days of BBB. My personal control has been the environment. The players don't KNOW if someone has resistant defenses by looking at them. Force Fields and Power Armor, yes, the players can assume that those are resistant defenses (easy to spot in my book). Shoot the same player after their force field fails, and you'll be on the evening news for sure. Cory (PC) is incredibly tough, but her resistant defenses are quite low without her costume. A player who blasted her with a KA on accident could do serious damage. Normal looking folks could have a PD of 35, and NO resistant defenses. If Josh incinerates one of them, he'll be wanted for murder at worst, and excessive force at the least. There's always that risk in the real world, "this is a Killing Attack, I could actually KILL that guy. Should I use it and hope I just knock him out?" Look at someone like Cyclops, who has a CVK at maximum; he usess his NORMAL blasts at reduced levels, and in the old days he would STOP other X-Men from using Killing attacks on targets. Yeah, Cyclops will someday get killed because he starts low and works upward with his DC's. But that IS a CVK played properly. That psych limit took him down in X-Men 2. She should've killed him there in the prison. The other solution is to cripple the STUN dealing power of the Killing attack to steer players away from it. That just doesn't seem right. It SHOULD have the potential to exceed or fizzle. Everybody throws numbers around, so I guess I should take a shot at it. Let us consider 4d6 RKA Yahtzees (statistically, do they not all have an equal chance of occuring?) All 1's: 4 BOD, 4 STUN All 2's: 8 BOD, 8 STUN All 3's: 12 BOD, 24 STUN All 4's: 16 BOD, 48 STUN All 5's: 20 BOD, 80 STUN All 6's: 24 BOD, 120 STUN So, does this indicate that the AVERAGE damage from a 4d6 RKA is 5 BOD, 21 STUN ?? No, by no means. As we are looking at an extremely unlikely sample group. Looks good though, don't it? Like most of the numbers we generate here. We can consider the STATISTICAL AVERAGE for the 4d6 RKA(which is an analysis, but irrelevant to actaul play. Once cannot roll 3.5 on a 6-sided polyhedron), SD = Normal (Standard) Dice Statistically all damage dice come up 3.5. We will use that for our first STUN multiple also. 4d6 RKA = 14 BOD, 35 STUN. 12d6 SD = 12 BOD, 32 STUN. Interestingly, this mirrors the earlier information posted. pt to pt, killing attacks are more efficient at generating STUN and BODY. i guess the tendency to reduce normals to paste is not a down side in most campaigns. However, the actaul variance couples to THIS set of figures, when 4d6 RKA => 14 BODY. SM 1 = 14, SM 2 = 14, SM 3 = 28, SM 4 = 42, SM 5 = 56, SM 6 = 70. Oddly enough, the truer average of this curve is 32 STUN, as opposed to the oft quoted 42 STUN yielded by (14+70) / 2. So statistically, the EB and the RKA do the SAME Stun damage. Let's see, we have an earlier quote: Odds indicate that you will get a lower multiple. you have a 50% chance (1,2,3) of getting minimal/ineffective STUN damage (14, 14, 28). We don't think it happens that way. GM's remember the lucky shots and the one punchs more than the "spang, no damage" occurences. Players ALWAYS remember the lucky shots. And on the unlucky ones, I see handfuls of dice tossed on the floor in disgust. My recent campaign experience is that Josh is disillusioned with his 4d6 RKA plasma beam, and is trying to rationalize a less lethal attack. The weather witch takes targets down far more reliably with her 12d6 EB. In the old days the simplest equalizer was that spreading cost 1d6 not 1 DC. i think that house rule in itself would interfere with the "efficiency" everyone seems to attribute to KA's, AVLD's, and NND's. in the old days, when villains unloaded with Killing attacks, players ducked for cover, instead of standing and taking it. In my experience, the flatter the curve for Stun Multiples, the more fearless characters become. "That idiot, he can't get more than 60 STUN on me with that .45 round, it couldn't possibly roll more than 15 BODY, and the maximum Stun Multiple is x4. I stand there and let im shoot me, then I take his gun and feed it to him." -- now if he could potentially do x5, for 75 STUN...it might be enough to daze me while he runs for it...I think chances in combat should be chances. More input folks. Let's see if we can figure out waht is actually broken.

FYI How Few Remain - Harry Turtledove's speculative historical fiction chronicling the second civil war. Covers Utah's attempt to secede, beginning of the subjugation of Canada, and the South purchases a few of the northern Mexican states. Interesting work, and if you like the tale, it goes all the way through WW I in subsequent books. The battle lines drawn in OUR America are chilling...trenches and barbed wire along the Virginia-Tennessee border...and Custer deciding tank usage policies in spite of the War Department strategies dictated. Let's see, he has Democrats and Socialists as the powers in the North, and Whigs and Radical Liberals in the South. I' waiting for the next part of Blood and Iron to come out in paperback.

Besides. Those wild swings are an inherent disadvantage to using a killiong attack. Not to mention pulping the mortals. I don't want the STUN to be predictable to the player. If you want to reliably put someone down, you need to use normal attacks Stun Drains. A killing attack MAY get a lucky x5 hit, but it is more likely to get a x1 or x2 STUN result. What about the villains (or outlaws) that don't have resistant defenses? BLAM. There they are dying or sufering from the use of excessive force. Lawsuit! If your players are reliably using killing attacks and STUN lotto to take people down, there may be something wrong with the scenes presented, or there may be loaded dice (I caught a player doing that once!). Killing attacks to tend to lower STUN in my experience...with the occasional "knock 'em down" hit. YMMV

Huh? You mean comic book heroes never get in lucky shots? Villains don't happen to get a solid strike on a hero in a firefight? Solid hits aren't turned into flesh wounds at the last minute? PErhaps I am reading the wrong comic books?

We use x3, and it's been satisfactory.but, I miss the unpredictability of the killing attacks. I actually like the fact that you can hit someone with a Killing Attack and do a few pips in STUN damage. The concept of "cauterized puncture wound, system ignores the damage" works nicley for me. I am toying with raiding my other polyhedrals, and I think we may try a d4. The quoted 1/2 d6 +1 images well for me too. I'll have to ask my friend with the pillowcase if he has any 1d3's he wants to part with. Though, cinematically I've alway described the 1x-2x STUN as a flesh wound or a near miss, and the 5x lotto hit as a strike to a vital area. Vital organs, major arteries, massive concussion damage, head hits.

FlameJet:: Let's see...Jet's distant family roots are Jewish refugees fromNazi Germany. Not that he really cared where his family an dmoney came from. Following the Turtledove predictions, the Jewish fleeing to America would find an industrialized North making friends with Germany, and a rural monied South firm friends with France and England. I'd place FlameJet in Texas. He still owns a construction company, but they build oil rigs, bridges and roads. Jet only occasionally gets involved in superheroics, more often he indulges in shortcutting building projects with his powers. He is anti-KKK, and pro-States Rights. Lightning:: Hah. No question. Reverie (Nathan James) is in the great pioneering anarchist State of California. He has more money than this Lightning, and he has built a few theme parks to compete with Walt's DreamTown. He is currently budling one in Texas. Anarchism and California have reacted oddly with Lightning's superspeed and moral sense. He wanders both North and South in the persona of "Reverie," when he appears he wears a historically accurate Civil War uniform of the other side, and acts for justice over law.

We had a long discussion a while back on aborting to Dispel. General consensus seemed to be that in that case it would be a defensive action to many GM's. Personally, I allow abort to Dispel in my campaign, unless it IS an obvious attack. ie: "I dispel his Flight as he attacks" However, the FAQ still states that you cannot abort to a defensive Dispel manuever, so a rules purist would use the Ranged Missile Deflection. That can continue to be used to cover teamates as Cyclops is often seen to do. Pleasure chatting with you. Who's next on your list? Just don't ask me for commentary on Cable. I will refuse. Self regenerating telekinetically operated bionics, more contacts than Nick Fury and Captain America put together, and suficient speed and power to take down Wolverine? Bleh. His abilities were obvioussly assembled by Rob "see my superior characters" Liefeld.

Hmm. FlameJet (Public ID) pretty much wears Mr. Playboy clothes. He hasn't worn the actual "FlameJet" costume since the toy line failed. No, wait, he still wears it for "hero-ing" public appearances. He comes off younger, brash, impulsive and flashy in his costume (this is an observation by fellow players). When he uses powers in his civvies he's much more a normal person, though short tempered. Actually, by nature of all the corporate demands, I think he's just easily irritated. Lightning on the other hand typically wears street clothes, and until recently he hadn't donned an actual costume since 1990 (except for Halloween), his ID is private because he was never a flashy easily seen hero. His association with a bona-fide superteam caused him to get out his old costume and add a jacket (or trenchcoat) to it for public appearances. He usually dons it when the press shows. Ironically, he plays at being a REAL superhero whenever he is visiting his home in Australia. He dresses up as a pirate from folklore and patrols Sydney under the name of "Cavalier", pretending to be a teleporter with an rapier (epee?) containing a stungun. That Deep Cover persona is SO not Lightning, and has a much greater tendency towards "casual" treatment of villains. "Say mate, why don't we go grab a brew before we finish this disagreement. I'll buy since all you have is the stolen money." (Cavalier was created on a whim sometime in his past, and he keeps up the fiction because Cavalier is a legitimate hero from a foreign (to the US) country who can visit the various agencies that are Watching or Hunting Lightning due to past crimes and misdemeanors.

FlameJet:: FlameJet IS one of those corporate figureheads. Though his organization DOES buy up and rebuild dystopic sections of the downside into more upscale settings. He has had cyvberware installed to stabilize his powers, though when he really pushes, he has been known to overload and burn out the governers, reverting to his normal plasma tempered excesses. Lightning:: Lightning is IN his heyday. His mostly useless electrical abilities would be terribly powerful against cybered personnel in the real world. His senses and hyperspeed would make him a datajack candidate and absolutely deadly in the net, especially once he found a way to use his electrical abilities to BOOST his cyberspace presence and powerlevels . His system breaking abilities would be augmented by access to more localized power than the web could generate. He'd be THE man to see in the underworld for getting information out of cyberweb hardpoints, and would likely not need a full cyberdeck to interface with the net.

On a side note:: Restrainable (-1/4) + Side Effect (-1/4) (Blind if Restrained) + Always On (-1/2) is just as valid I would think. And as a long time X-Men fan, I cite the EC as being as equally valid a construct as the Multipower, EXCEPT for the following mechanics related discussion:: 1) An EC is primarily constructed to allow usage of multiple powers within it simultaneously. Cyclops in the comics cannot fire multiple TYPES of Beams simultaneously, he has to refocus or switch. In keeping with this, Missile Deflection is an aborted/defense action. He cannot perform the action in a phase he attacks in (according to mechanics). So why waste an EC? You can just as easily abort to Missile Deflection in a Multipower. 2) Missile Deflection IS appropriate for thrown objects, and possibly bullets. i cannot think of a bullet example. His ENERGY deflection howver can be overwhelmed by superior force. Deflection has no such limitation. I would be more likely to model it as a Dispel versus RKA and EB. 3) Cyclops often fires Area Affect attacks at agents. However, that may be spreading for multiple targets. Tomato => GM preference. 4) The Gemoetric Cubist attacks used by Cyke (the literally dozens of bounces) are very difficult to duplicate with levels. That's actually a use of the Indirect power advantage. 5) If a multipower, he can buy the slot with "TK" "Fine Manipulation" "Burst Only" to push buttons... as a matter of fact, a TK slot would be better for the "knock him far away" attacks in some cases. I must ponder that idea. I actually prefer Cyclops with the One Big Active Point EB using Variable Advantage for the flexibility on the power suite. I don't think he actually HAS a killing attack, I think he switches to Armor Piercing, or Penetration, or (in extreme cases) NND, def => Hardened Defenses. Keep in mind, NORMALLY Cyke will be using Increased Knockback and Reduced END as a default in many cases. Variable Advantage accounts far more closely to comic book variability of his one trick pony. Don't forget the END battery that recovers through solar power, unless that's been removed from his conception. He can even use his Varaible Advantage to get off an occadional attack AFTER his END battery goes flat. The varialbe advantage can be switched to "personal or battery", and Cyke is hardly EVER without power.

Apparently my lack of experience with other Superhero systems counts against me here. That is a COMPLETELY useful explanation of Elemental Controls, and describes EXACTLY why there is only one EC in my campaign. The other 2 initial EC writeups were converted to much more legal and playable Multipower collections. I like it. One Power with differing mechanics for "known" power stunts. I may have to rethink some of my frameworking restrictions if I keep that in mind. (Don't mention it Hugh!)

WHIF (That's WHEN and IF) the Cyborg gets a gadget pool, his minimum limitation will be IIF for internal hardshielded systems. And it will probably be swapped for the existing multipower framework as part of character evolution. Nope, the fields will be visible. Cory could order 2-4 of them from Tom if she was willing to return the other stuff she has (so he can analyze it). I have never minded characters purchasing the OIF Sunglasses. No sillier than Avenger Helmet Radios, Quinjets, Fantastic Four "unstable molecule" costumes, Dick Tracy radio watches, Superman signal watches, Bat mikes, Bat Belts, Bat Cycles, rings to keep liquiform expanding costumes in, radio scramblers, spidey tracer trackers, Doc Savage's machine pistols or microgrenades (that ALL of them carried), phony federal ID's, powere suppressors or a thousand other things. These are comic books. The sunglasses are far more believable than "spontaneously" acquiring flash defense. If the players are foolish enough to believe that buying the defenses against the villains attacks will save them, well, I have a whole book full of powers and a whole head full of character concepts. Not to mention the villains can follow the same patterns in cases that are analyzable to them. This is the big problem my characters have with GENOCIDE, those guys watch and make notes on EVERYTHING they see a metahuman do, some agent gets away with intact recordingsm and they come prepared for tactics and powers seen. Some NND's would of course be an exception to this. They are developing Mental Darkness screens (Psi static generators), Mental Invisibility screens (Psi-echo field), Psi Refractos (Mental Damage Shield, Ego Attack), Null Fields (Nothing here, Mental Illusions - Mental Senses Only), Psi-Shields (Mental Defense). These are all ideas that they are funding and breeding in response to Wheels playing havoc with their computer systems, banking records, and stock holdings/distribution. As a matter of fact, they are doing most transactions on paper now, in response to his actions. In Etremis Example:: "Hey, GL, they were expecting you, they all wore yellow bodysuits over their costumes" If it's OIF, it can be broken or taken away by thoughtful supervillains. Cory has learned to grab obvious foci, whether inaccessible or not. her STR can make spare parts out of most small ones. Oh, and though a force field might protect "add-ons" from beam impacts and knockback damage, very few other defense forms will. The sunglasses will require "integration" into the character's costuming.

Alright Mr. Number Crunching Gary. I am now curious about something observed during play sessions, and YOU have a spreadsheet somewhere that will handle it. I see no need to do the calculations myself at this point. I wonder if AP in general can be found more efficient than +x SM RKA's to simulate an Impact attack with a risk of doing BODY damage. What's the net difference between the +2 STUN multiple attack versus the equivalent Armor Piercing EB ?? My experience in play from Josh's wide plasma beam (RKA, +2 SM) is that it does NOT reliably do as much STUN damage as the equivalent priced AP EB in the Weather Witch's power suite. Josh's player is of the same opinion. Am I seeing averages versus wide swings?

I'd have to give Gary this. NNDboy and teamates will make short shrift of Cyborg and Cory. Cyborg is not a quick thinker, and Cory, though she has flashes of brilliance, pretty much operates under a "hit again" mentality. A three man villain group marginally stronger than them pretty much made them look like idiots in one of their encounters (#3 was a Wheels type, out of range and sight and offering aid buffs/fire-support). Hob was upset that an apparent TWO attackers made them look like rookies. Cyborg DOES carry flash grenades for sight and sound (AE attack too). IF he survives, he may be able to neutralize NNDboy quickly enough for Cory to down him. The which has an AE attack, and a spreadable AP EB, wither of which she could shoot NNDboy with from a very high altitude. IF he can rapid fire his smoke cloud, I don't seee any reason she cannot rapid fire her arctic blizzard. She habitually flies high (building hieghts), because she has that accuracy problem on her flight...when she does she uses one of the radios or maintains a Mind Link with Wheels. They worked out a reaction to overwhelming team assault after the encounter I mentioned above. Assuming the visible existence of a fuill team, Cyborg would probably retreat with the damaged weather witch. Wheels would port in and port out Josh, and they'd leave Cory to her own devices while they regrouped. Cory is not a real team player until something kicks the shit out of her. And she has proved to be mostly invulnerable...Wheels is ruthless enough to gamble her against a fast regroup and call for support if necessary. And the woman that plays Cory is his WIFE !! I think NNDboy will premiere in the next supervillain team, or I may allow for experimental RnD from GENOCIDE with some rapid fired NND blasters... Josh apparently HAS rapid fire. It's completely believeable that he would launch a strafe in reply instead of a single shot. He is ex-military (corporate wars) AND destructive. The Cyborg would not be likely to purchase it. He has a limited supply of grenades, and his Railgun is a sniping weapon. The Witch? Maybe, maybe not. She HAS wanted to toss more than one ball lightning at once...I can picture her out practicing that.

Far longer than intended, and a hijack/commentary Gary liked something! Wait...let me repeat that... Gary liked something! Damn. I guess I shouldn't have given up on the unified field theory I was working on! I chattered on about this thread tonight to two of my Champs players. (Oddly, it was the Witch and the Cyborg) They asked "What about Michael?" (the ArchAngel), who I completely did not mention! Guess he's off on an assignment from God ?? (pesky "subject to Orders" limitation) Oddly enough, the only character I really had to exert any balance control on was Josh. His player said he'd like ot be able to throw plasma beams or something, just attack powers, so I staged a radiation accident. I think he even still has side effects on most of his plasma beams (more fun than a paltry Activation roll). Everybody else had very firm character concepts with built in weaknesses. Wheels is played by the pickup GM (who runs DnD 3), and Hob built Wheels crippled with the huge mental abilities. Wheels was actually concieved as a self destructive character, since most hits could reduce him to goo. After proving the theory of the character was sound, versatile, and powerful, he planned Wheels to reach a "plot device level" and set aside as GENOCIDE took full offensive against his abilities...he was pretty sure once GENOCIDE got organized, he'd be paste (our game has a Cyberpunk edge to it, GENOCIDE has surplus military copters with Megascaled Mutant Suppressors available. Our Heroes did capture the technology from a downed one, and make their power defense gadgets...). Hob derailed the GENOCIDE plot by tampering with things man was not meant to know (a setup I designed for the ArchAngel), the last time the heroes saw him, he was 7 feet of Aztec perfection striding out into Herotzala (North America) to fight the evil invaders from across the ocean. Poor heroes, when they came back out to Chicago, they were in a different world. Wheels broke the timestream by trying to establish mental control over a 2001 style minilith. Luckily Cory speaks two languages very similar to the surrounding civilization. (no, one is NOT ENglish) Hob's other character ideas follow the same "trump card" path. A full range metamorph/shapeshifter with variable power sets, a heat/cold projector/manipulator with armor, absorbtion and tunnelling, or a nanite/biotech ailment producer. He prefers the nonstandard power suites instead of conventional characters. IE: Plot/Game breakers to bypass the "standard" GM. Drain/Suppress/Aid/NND/Corrosives/Dispel/Flash etc...those are likely to go on his toxic character. His closest analogy was "like status ailments in computer RPG's, things that inhibit/decrease functionality and power level, but built as actual powers." I sent him back for "special effects" instead of "powers I'd like to have" We'll see what comes up. Hob played for a some time with a restrictive HERO game master (someone who "informed him" that the Wheels concept couldn't be built on 350 pts, especially with the proposed machine class mind effects). I honestly believe Hob is slowly testing the limits of Hero system. He will be assimilated.

If NNDboy has someone covering him, Cory would throw a car sized object at them. She's mad, not stupid. Yes Wheels is fragile. Comes fom game breaking powers. He has limited END for his direct attack powers. His indirect powers are more easily sustained (Mind Control/Illusions). he is not above telepathically monitoring the state of a specific villain. over Mind Link: "Hit him now Josh. He's scared of your plasma beams and is rocky on his feet" In their own way, so are the Cyborg and the Witch; one has gamebreaking defenses, one has some game breaking abilities/attacks. The Witch doesn't carry a force-field (because of DCV levels, costs END), so fallls to the NND by avoioding typical character min-max design and going for flavor instead. She didn't picture a force field, she specifically requested the winds approach. Her flight is erratic (requires to hit roll for specific target hex), but that is a symptom of her movements in flight being from the winds "pushing her about at her will", thus allowing for the DCV bonus. The Cyborg has a restrainable mod on a major chunk of his abilities, as he was assmbled YEARS ago, when cybernetics were in their infancy. He's subject to certain electromagnetic tools/suites that exist in the campaign world. His defenses are simply over campaign max. Wheels has been buying some surplus military hardware for him, and since the stuff is modular, Josh is helping Cyborg upgrade his systems to old military specs (a reasonable project for reducing the limitation, kudos to my players). Josh has a great ranged attack power suite, and MA DEX/SPD, instead of a force field or inherent "I am tough because I am a Champions character and I bought PD/ED," he carries a shield from his mercenary days that stands in as Armor and occasional missile deflection. His reflexes are so good, the armor was only limited by "must percieve attack" You are already aware of Cory's gamebreaking ability.

Why am I always around pouring kerosene on the fire? My players pretty much don't sit down and point crunch the effeciency of the powers. They don't want THAT much math. They go for obvious broken stuff, or they buy flavor. I mostly get flavor purchases by the Multipower players, and normal purchases by the others. The EC characters that can actually save UP the 20-30 points for power purchase stand a chance of getting a broken power through, just for reward and variety. Double Knockback IMHO is more useful than a +3 SM. It wreaks greater havoc on the surrounding environment, AND usually allows for a free shot as the target attempts to return to the fray (provided of course, he coped with the additional 12d6 or 10dr+10d6 from going through the building) I don't think 2xKB is broken, nor do I consider it overpriced. On Wheels specialty power, it was a perfect fit, and he tacked persoanal immunity on top for a firm bonus and to avoid the question of being affected by his own attack if he was in the middle of the AE. The only other place I have seen a player writeup with 2xKB is in one of the Cyborg's alternate weapon platforms.

Actually, if the Cyborg gets the Witch out of the area, she's likely to return fire with her own AOE NND, while the cyborg overcharges his railgun attack. Any knockback will mess up NNDboy's Rapid Fire capabilities. her NND is an arctic Blizzard effect, Cold, appropriate arctic/cold weather gear and inherent cold powers will counteract the NND damage. I completely forgot about that. She would definitely be in the first blast radius if NNDboy had the GENOCIDE copies of her power suite. They are the only ones to have seen her flash freeze an area. I find it interesting that the majority of the "it's broken" threads all come back to the abuses that the specific power causes when coupled with NND attacks. And yes, I count Transform in the NND attack pile. It bypasses much of normal defense abilities.

Qualify from real characters just to add commentary and fan the flames:: Wheels is in the area, just not easily accessible. He is within a 40" Teleport range, and under cover or invisible (until attack). Wheels can rapid fire his Ego Attack twice (four attacks total) before having serious STUN issues. If NNDboy survived "Cory squash" with little percieved impact, he likely attempts Illusions or Mind Control instead of the Ego Attack, and follows up with the other. Actually though, Hob will think of a solution that is NOT listed here. He usually does. Wheels has Detect Minds because Mind Scan does not allow for the Cerebro effect of "how many active minds are in that building?". Mind Scan is designed for "where is Target Alpha??" As to the list of defenses:: The most common NND's IME have the following as the defense: Cyborg has it, "must breathe once per hour". Cory (currently) has a short term version costing 1 END per phase. She'd activate it on her first action following the "choking smothering" if she thought of it. Wheels has a TK force field built into his wheelchair, based on a psi-amplifier adapted by Josh and the Cyborg. No other force fields. Josh hasn't figured out how to maintain one yet. The Cyborg has this one. so does Josh going by Plasma Kid's costume description. Josh is immune to radiation. The Witch to Heat and Cold. Cory is currently immune to Cold, but that will change at next game. The group has had a few run-ins with GENOCIDE homebrew. Cyborg, Wheels (chair), Witch, and Cory all have Power Defense. Cory and Wheels only works against mutant power suppressors. Josh's mutant plasma powers burnt up his focus for Power Defense. Cyborg has Lack of Weakness Cory (partial), Josh (partial, must percieve attack), Cyborg (full). And as a conclusive footnote: The Cyborg has telescopic vision, and a no range mods railgun. Admittedly, it only does 8d6 damage, but he can fire it from a REALLY long way off. (200-300", depending on GM). If he wasn't dazed by the initial assault, he caught the Witch in the air, and kept moving. Cory is tougher than him, he likes the witch a lot, and Josh is an old soldier also, knowing when to retreat. When the Witch wakes up, there will be a lot of wind or rain or fog in the area, depending on the NND.. PS; If sombody shoots you from out of PER range...does it count as surprise? The Cyborg, Josh. and Wheels all carry radios. Wheels has Telepathy and Mind Link, And Cory sometimes has a radio. They will turn to geurilla tactics. They used them against GENOCIDE very well. As to the nature of Cory's "sometimes" effects, she knows a genius, who has her field test stuff for him. Think about that maniac in the middle of the desert in Mystery Men. She even calls him Tom Waits. Cory has a small (20 pt) Variable Power Pool, which uses her contact roll as a the Control Roll. If she wants something special, she phones him, and he ships it to her FedEx or by suborbital messenger rocket (depending on payload requirement). She would definitely be better prepared for NNDboy the second time around.

I'm with Hugh...the problem may be advatage stacking the powerful advantages. I'll have to ponder on that when I see it in play. Let's see from my PC sheets here:: You dropped 12d6 if NND on the group. Let's see, that's about 42 STUN. Okay...your NND has no listed "reasonably vcommon defense", it's a magic smoke cloud that hits everyone. Hmm. The weather witch is comatose and falling. The cyborg is almost out, and dazed (CON stun)...he was barely saved by his damage reduction. His life support and esoteric defenses did not stop your magic cloud though. You missed Wheels entirely, he is NEVER that close to a combat grouping. Josh "Plasma Kid" has gone down, and will be staggering back to his feet when the next round of Rapid Attacks is fired. Cory is just mad. She isn't even stunned (her CON is 50). Cory hasn't moved yet...she's the slowest super in the game. She leaps over to NNDboy and attempts her calssic "grab and squash" him (even with her psych limits tripped she won't throw a ranged combatant away, she learned that the hard way!). Wheels is radioing UNTIL for fire support, what with all those unconscious bodies littering the area. OCV 6, +2 with grabs or punches = OCV 8. I assume NND is in the neighborhood of 1/2 8 DCV = 4 DCV. So, she likely gets him, and squishes him for 18d6 of damage. NNDboy takes 63 STUN and 18 BODY against his defesnes. NNDboy makes his contortionist roll, and successfully rapid fires his NND at Cory while grabbed. NNDboy takes no damge because he came froma min-max game, and has been built including the defense for his magic cloud. Cory goes down. Plasma boy staggers to his feet, and fires an attack burst from his END battery. He misses both NNDboy and Cory, incinerating a small car. Thankfully...his attack could actually have hurt her. It might have incinerated NNDboy. The GM rules that the car does not exsplode for more than a couople dice, what with the gas shortage and all. Plasma Kid should've used his one-Hex AE. The cyborg leapt into the air on his hydraulic jacks to catch the weather witch, and they will both crash out of control because of the magic NND smoke. As his last conscious act, he ensures they impact and skid on his armor. Wheels made his PER roll to detect NNDboy inside that smoke cloud (Detect Minds, Range, DIsc, Analyze, TARGETTING), and fires an Ego attack at him. Wheels can't hit Cory by mistake, he's very familiar with her mind. Wheel's auto-hits (he'd miss on 18, OECV 13 - DECV 2). I'm applying the 1/2 DCV rapid fire rule to the ECV and DCV simultaneously in my games. That's a 6d6 hit for 21 STUN. I rate NNDboy as unconscious. Wheels will ensure he stays that way with Mind Control or Mental Illusions and/or Tlepathy. He has the full rack. He will also use Mind Contorl to prevent Cory from killing NNDboy until her rage passes. Hopefully, they keep an eye on Plasma, he's ex-military and has a decidedly Wolverine attitude towards deadly foes. Commentary:: Knowing my gaming group, and the effects of rapid firing AE attacks, I'd probably have to allow for Dive fro Cover to be used between bursts. Dramatically speaking, it'd be great. The cloaked figure throws an object that explodes covering an area 7" in diameter, it engulfs all of you. The second is already in the air and headed toiwards you. Player:: "To hell with that, I make a full move, straight up" GM: "DEX roll please, you'll be hit by the firstone regardless" Player:: "That's fine. I just don't want the whole Autofire attack to hit me." Cory:: "Pah! I'm invulnerable. I go rip his head off after the blast"

I allow Rapid Fire...i have not seen a problem. The user is absolutely paranoid about having a DCV "lower than Cory's!" He doesn't have the defenses to take the hits with the style she has. Cory has used sweep attacks on armored doors, a building, and a rogue bolo unit with little disruption of the plotline, though she DID smash the tank up faster than expected...such is the nature of the big dumb slow moving monster when attacking a hero base. I don't think Wheels has the END to rapid fire his EGO attack...and I am not going to suggest it to him until it is dramatically appropriate. He has a telekinetic attack for dealing with mooks. I must have a bad copy of FRED...I see multiple references HERE to 4 or 5 shots with Rapid Fire...and my FRED prohibits Rapid Fire of more than 2 or 3 shots. 5 pts bordering on the realm of a naked Autofire advantage...hmmm. Does Autofire incur the 1/2 DCV penalty? If not, then I'd say Rapid Fire is in line with Autofire in cost. Then again, I see mention of a 4d6 NND, AE attack. That's a 60 AP attack that I could see Rapid Fire unbalanced for, however, not fired on charges, it costs a whopping 18 END per stunt. Impressive. Do that more than twice with no ill effects on your continued combat capabilities. "Hey guys? They're still moving. I need to lie down, I can't shoot anymore. Somebody cover me."