Hugh Neilson

I agree with Redmenace that you shoyuld get CON up to 23. This costs you another 16 points. You recover 7 of that in STUN and 6 in REC, so you're only really paying 3 points (plus boosting ED 3 and END 26 - settle for only +20 END and the CON is paid for) Duplicate martial maneuvers can be cleared if you've paid for the same one more than once. A "Strike" can be a punch or a kick - you don't have to pay once for each. Total defenses are 16/14 (16/17 with 23 CON), which is probably enough for a character whose main defense is avoiding attacks. I'd consider a higher DEX (33 or even 35) before I'd buy more BOD, but that's just me. He can get a 17 DCV with his levels, if he puts all in DCV and uses a no DCV modifying maneuver. A 10 PRE and a 10 EGO means presence attacks will cost you some phases. That's offset a bit by your high speed, but not bveing able to act in your first phase means being an easy target, something you can't afford. I would buy some presence only to resist PRE attacks to solve this. I don't see a lot of need to buy END - you'll have a base 46 with 23 CON, and you'll use what - 2 for STR and maybe 1 to run in a phase? At 15 REC, that 46 END will last a long tim, even spending 21 per turn. I'm also not a big fan of buying up Stun, but that's personal preference. You could shave a few points by making FW only on martial attacks - what else will you likely use? I'm not certain how you're working the multiform. At first, I thought all the base form's disad's carried over, but that's clearly not the case as the characteristic maxima on DEX and Speed would kill you. I think you are operating on the basis you pay 50 to get a 250 point base, and add in disadvantages from there. The cost is actually 1/5 of the total points of the second form, including disadvantages (so 350/5 = 70 points). The second form has the same base points as the base character (150), so you need to take 250 points of disadvantages in the second form to balance him. You could get a point break on the multiform if you revert to Harold if knocked out. Given your description of the change (to Kudo when fighting starts, back after), you might want to consider an Accidental Change disadvantage. It's to Harold's advantage to change in most cases, but the automatic shift back if the fighting's done could be a drawback (since Hardold stioll needs a half phase to change back, and won't have those extra defenses until he does). Some form of healing/regeneration can be handy for low DEF characters, who are prone to take body. Logically, Kudo (an immortal) could have regeneration, and pass this along to Harold due to their joined nature. whoa...just noticed that 150/100 thing... The construct is legal, but as a GM, I would not allow any structure (multiform, duplication, slavishly loyal summon) which allows a character who exceeds the campaign point limits. I would restrict Kudo to 150/100 like any other PC. In a 250 point campaign, his abilities will make him a combat monster, virtually unstoppable. Talk to your GM about campaign norms - I suspect Kudo would be competetive with fewer/no levels, lower attack DC's, reduced Speed and/or less (or even removed) Find Weakness. The standard for supers in this range is 3-8 Speed, Combat Values of 6-11 (your DEX alone puts you at the high end - the levels put you well above), 6-12 damage classes (eg. 12d6 strike, or 6d6 NND) and defenses of 12 (6 resistant). You're at or above the high end of the scale in pretty much all categories, so scaling back wouldn't be too tough.

Depends on the toaster (watch Red Dwarf). The "easy to control by me" is offset by the "easy to control by anyone else as well". My Summoned toaster will toast Dr. Destroyer's bagel. My summoned zombie won't carry his luggage.

Don't get me started on the "summon specific" advantage. Apparantly, if you always want a blue van, you have to pay double... A better question may be what happens to the "old" van when you summon a new one. Depends on special effects, I guess - is it created from thin air (and if so does it dissipate back when you summon a new one), or is there a van manur=facturer out there with a lot of inventory leakage?

Actually, I'd envision this being a lot like a fire - it keeps the animal predators away, but you're way more noticable to the sentient beings that may be in the area.

Is a Force Wall impermeable? Air gets in (or you'd suffocate), so water should leak through a typical force wall as well. And it's not really insulated. The Change Environment covers both off anyway. And it's warm and dry inside because it's surrounded by a wall of force. It's not a Force Wall (mechanic), but it is a force wall (SFX).

I wouldn't add the force wall to keep bugs out - I think the change environment is adequate. For personal defense during the night, rather than just comfort, the force wall makes sense. Of course, isn't the force wall visible, audible and detectable by one other sense? Essentially, you are choosing defense at the cost of being more noticable, unless you pump up the cost and make that Wall invisible (except to sight - who cares if it's opaque - that was the idea).

Getting long - Part II I agree with the game mechanic - "any type of being" is basically generic. My disagreement is whether +1 "specific being" should mean "only that one specific being may ever be summoned" or "you may choose to summon any specific being within your available class". In my view, to be a +1 advantage, the ability should be "You may select any Summonee desired from your available class within your maximum point total". Perhaps this is only a duplicate of the original (Green Lantern making a power ring lion, for example). Perhaps (and this is a power that should be examined carefully and easily abused) it is a magic spell that summone the real person. "Good evening, Mr. Blair." A completely different duplicate of a 350 point character costs 140 points. The duplicate costs no END to create, but takes a full phase to create, and another to recombine (IIRC). If the duplicate dies, your points are lost. Let's use Summon instead. Start at 70 points so I can Summon the "duplicate" to begin with. Make him slavishly loyal, because (like my duplicate) he's under my control. That's +1. It's a "Specific Person", so that's another +1. There are some other differences (time to create/combine duplicate; END cost for Summon), but let's assume these balance out. If "Only this specific person" costs +1, it costs 210 points as a Summon, or 140 for Duplication. If "Specific person" and "can only summon this one specific person" balance out to +0, it costs 140 - exactly the same as Duplication. This seems reasonable to me, since it creates exactly the same effect. Assuming a 70 point follower, you have 70 points to work with under my logic (the +1 advantage to make the Summoned being slavishly loyal, or to make him a duplicate), or 140 points under your model. Teleport with Trigger ("When I snap my fingers, you will return")? Slap it in a multipower starting with ordinary teleport and, say, 16x noncombat, and work your way down through various Megascale options, add an EDM slot, and I think you'll find it can be done for 70 points, remembering that it only works on one person (that's got to be a -2 limitation). Which is why "select a specific person" should be a very carefully examined advantage. If I can ONLY summon grond, I can only beat him up so many times. Yeah, I took Grond off the streets, but I've got no real points left to be effective against anyone else. Note that, even if one accepts the "Summon brings a randomly selected real person", structure, the odds of getting the specific one you're looking for from the pool is infinitissimal. My example (try again for someone with the knowledge) assumed knowledge fairly common in the class, such that getting someone who has this knowledge is pretty likely. Getting the guy who built the artifact in question? Clearly you'd need "specific person" for that!

I think we're on the same page here - if I choose to Summon Dogs, I set the point value of my dog. I probably pick a combat-effectove dog, so I don't get a miniature french poodle. I get basically the same dog every time - color, gender, etc. vary, but it has more or less the same stats (note that the rules envision only very minor statistical changes for basic Summons, with examnples topping out at shifting half a dozen character points). If you want something more interesting than a “faceless drone†as an individual you have to apply the Specific Being Advantage, and accept that you only get one. (e.g. In my game you could Summon “dogs†and you would get a different “generic†dog each time, but that dog would never (or so rarely as to be as good as) be your pet collie “Lassieâ€, even though she is built on the appropriate number of points. Alternatively, you could choose to pay the +1 Advantage to be able to Summon “Lassieâ€, but you would never get any other dog.) The issue to me is "Lassie" versus "generic dog". If you paid to summon a 75 point dog, and Lassie is a 150 point dog, you will NEVER get Lassie - you didn't pay the points. If you paid the points to summon a 150 point dog, what is the game advantage to getting the same color, gender, etc. dog every time ("Lassie")? I don't see this as worth double the points. Note that the dog is no friendlier - you must pay for "amicable", regardless of whether you summon a specific being or a generic "dog". The I’ll keep summoning the “Spirits of Dead Playwrights†until I get William Shakespeare, so we can ask him who really wrote his plays stunt just does not fit with my interpretation of the rules. Summon, can not do that inherently. You will never get from basic summoning someone or something that has a value in and of itself. I think it twists the rules greatly - I would suggest that, to get "William Shakespeare" specifically of all those possibilities merits an advantage. However, if you can summon generic spirits of the dead (rather than a specific spirit of the dead), their knowledge should logically vary. ASIDE: Why you would use Summon Spirit of the Dead instead of simulating this with a Knowledge skill bonus, maybe with some limitations, would be a good question. With the cost of a Summon, you could get a pretty good skill bonus. [/b]Since inherently the “Spirits of Dead Wizards†are all unique individuals and not generic. The only way that I would allow you to use Summon the way you’ve been describing is with both the Expanded Class (at the +1 level) and the Specific Being advantage.[/b] So presumably you think that this is worth three times the cost of "summon generic dead wizard". To me, the generic "Summon" gets basically the same generic character sheet every time. Room for customization is, as noted for the base power, very limited, if at all. To get more room for customization, you buy "expanded class" - now I can summon any type of dog, so some statistical variance is possible, but I get a generic dog of the species I choose. Moving up the charts to +1, I can summon a generic **anything** at +1. Summon Human? Sure. Summon Circus Ringmaster? I suppose - depends on SFX. Summon PT Barnum? No. [/b] I would house rule that in conjunction those two advantages together could produce the results that you’ve been describing as the base effect of Summon. I would probably, let you get a limitation put on it for restricting it to a certain group, and the fact that you get a random one each time you use the power, but the Active Cost and END should be higher do to the potential abuse of the power.[/b] If I'm reading you right, we're getting a lot closer to the same page here. I would buy Summon, +1 advantage "Anything" expanded class, +1 "specific person". Now I can basically choose anyone I want (within my point limit, of course). Then I limit the potential choices to a specific group and a random choice, so my actual cost comes back into line. However, the actual rule is "Specific being" means you summon one, and only one, specific being. My position at the outaset is that we restrict the generic "spirits of dead wizards" to all having identical stats (and, absent an advantage, they would) and "you get one knowledge roll and that's it" (which should also be the case - guven the spirit serves little other purpose, he's likely got a high enough roll that most knowledge is a given anyway). That said, however, I fail to see how saying "I only summon one dead wizard - he has the same stats as the generic dead wizard, but his name is "Wilberforce", he has a thick scottish brogue, he has a long white braided beard and always wears a kilt" means the power should be doubled in cost. It's probably no more limiting - how do you kill someone who's already dead anyway? But it also carries no benefits whatsoever - it's a special effect. As such, it should not carry an extra cost. Similarly, I believe the advantages and drawbacks of "Only summon this specific being" instead of "summon a generic being of this type" balance out - assuming the "specific being" has the same point cost, is as amicable, etc., as the "generic being". As such, ot should carry no extra cost. However, the ability to select between specific beings at will DOES carry a significant advantage, and is worth the +1 advantage. I also agree with FREd that the ability should generally be restricted in some fashion - "rescue the Princess" is a lot easier when I say "No Problem - Summon the Princess", but that's a matter of game construct and genre (eg. "no telepathy because it's a mystery campaign"), not point balance.

At least you can change the quote. The system assumes my birthday is December 31, 1969. Is Hero trying to tell me I'm too old for this game?

I'm pretty sure 5th Ed covers this, but I don't have the books with me. IIRC, the suggestion was that, for helpful powers, this would reduce the value by 1/4 or something. Given harming instead of healing is a serious result, as a GM I'd be inclined to let it go and say the character gets full value for the side effect.

Another thought - you could build it as a Base (pretty cheap for the size and DEF you're probably looking for) and define it as "summoned" by the wristband (or as a vehicle, since you can move it about - but the shelter itself doesn't move, so I'd call it Summon Base). Bases have opaque walls, and keep the rain and bugs out. To clarify the mechanics, you would pay the full cost of tjhe base (ie compite base, divide by 5) and pay END for the Summon. Basically, the "portability" of the base offsets the END cost. You could buy the Summon no end. You can also make it pretty cheap with Extra time ("Just pull the switch, and in only a minute, you've got a complete shelter")

I'd just go without the Force Wall. Change Environment should be able to keep those inside dry and vermin-free anyway. How big a deal is the fact the exterior is opaque? I can't see in, you can't see out. It's not like it will see combat use. If you want hard walls (and even 4/4 seems pretty hard - 4 resistant DEF is a failry tough object), then you need the Force Wall.

The two problems raised are "use both at once to double your attacks" and "extra guns = extra charges". The easy solution is to rule that the 5 point duplicate is a backup only. Charges are for all duplicates in aggregate, and you can't use more than one at a time. If you wantb these extra advantages, buy the weapon again at full cost or simulate it with other powers (eg. autofire, extra dice only to spread and hit two targets, what have you). Yes, letting players have two guns that have to be disarmed gives them a minor edge over the guy with one, just as being able to shoot energy beams from your two hands rather than just your eyes does. But in general, the difference is so small that it's pointless to quibble over. And if it's truly only a backup weapon, only used when the "main weapon" is disarmed, fair enough. At this point, maybe a 5 point cost is reasonable on the basis he only has to draw the new weapon and he's back in action. If he want to carry 6, then he needs to buy OIF instead of OAF. At that point who cares if he carries 6 or 26? He can have an unlimited number - just make them "restrainable" instead of "focus". Same cost as OIF, so no real difference. One could argue he always has one, so even after being strip searched, he still has guns somewhere on his person, but SFX justify the removal of the weapons in such a case (ie they have been "restrained" until you can get them back). So now we have three schools of thought: - 5 points for a duplicate device is too cheap - 5 points for a duplicate device is just right - 5 points for a duplicate device is too much Of course, which view one takes depends on what one believes the duplicate device can be used for.

As GamePhil notes, the rule is "mundane generally means universal", not "universal generally means mundane". Adopting your interpretation deals with the "lend it to my friends" problem, but how many "genre bits" do we lose? Lazer's unique lazer pistol can't be grabbed by the hero and fired - it's not mundane. Now we know why Armadillo and Ankylosaur found power armor in storage - it wouldn't work for anyone else. Magic rings, wands, swords, etc. work only for the person who paid the points for them, which pretty much blows the ability to "loot the bodies", or recover and use ancient mystic artifacts two staples of fantasy games.

Yet, based on the initial comments at the start of the thread, it is perfectly legitimate to pay 5 points to have a SPARE gun/sword/what have you, and use both your "pruimary" and your "spare" weapon at the same time, a maneuver which cannot be equalled at the same point effectiveness by a character who does not have a focus for his powers, and consequently paid more points. One character buys a 12d6 Energy Blast. 0 END (90 points). The other buys a 12d6 Laser Blast, 64 charges, OAF Gun (45 points), pays 5 points for a duplicate gun and buys up the two weapon fighting skills, plus some levels to offset the penalties. The first character gets to fire once in a phase. The second gets to fire twice per phase, with no CV penalties, and, even after the skills, doubtless spent less points. Granted, the second guy can "only" do this for 64 phases - how often do you fire off 64 attacks at full power before your charges can recover? He can be disarmed, but he's still getting a huge point break. To get the effect of a second shot per phase, my naturally powered character needs to double his speed. Another EB won't do it - his multi-power attack can only hit one target. Autofire doesn't work - he's restricted in target choice - and would carry an even greater cost by doubling his "0 end". The argument that "a competent GM would disallow abuses" is reasonable, but one could also argue "a competent GM" should be able to run the game without the benefits of any rules whatsoever - he can just make up fair and equitable rulings on the fly (or just make characters with no point-based system). Then we don't need to pay points for powers at all. The rule should either be that the duplicate devices cannot be used simultaneously ever (you want two attacks, buy them the expensive way), or that all duplicate devices can be used - after all, the character paid the points. Obviously, my call is the former - to spend 15 points for 4 duplicate Power Armor suits and then outfit all your teammates just means every superteam will have Captain Armorer or be squashed by those that do.

Time for a miniseries or flashback adventure...

How many people have worried about point balancing a master villain? How many have statted out the cost of his base (perhaps its an entire universe)? How about making the charismatic group leader pay for those devoted followers, his teammates? The robot guards? The killer satellite? This never gets statted out into the villain's powers - most GM's balance their villains based on effectiveness and chalk up the extras needed to move the game forward as plot device - plus infinity limitation"

But I paid my points to have extra suits, didn't I? Either having extra suits is possible, or it isn't. Either they are universal, or they are not. If the character had instead invested the extra points in a slow fade rate Aid, would he be prevented from beefing up the other characters? The difference is that 10 or 15 points don't buy much aid. And they shouldn't buy an extra four suits of powered armor either. [Now, the same character also has no right to complain when the extra suits get stolen and used against the team - you got the point break for OIF, and making the foci universal was YOUR choice!]

A STUN drain costs 10 points per d6. An ego blast costs 10 points per d6. Why should it cost an extra 7.5 (or 5) points per d6 to have them act against the other defense? Might as well just make that Drain "based on ECV", and get the ability to target against mental defense with no range modifiers for a paltry 2.5 points per die more. If the cost of making an ordinary EB work against Flash, Mental or Power defense is no different, regardless of which defense is chosen, how is it hugely advantageous to switch the defenses? Yes, Sunglass Man will actually be blinded by my Flash vs Mental Defense, but not a single Egoist will. Who is it more advantageous to blind? Probably the guy whose powers all have range = line of sight!

Re: What am I missing... the 5th ED Champions... Me too - but I have the black dice. The itty bitty blue ones were a great disappointment to another player who bought later. I bought the 5th Ed rules, and enjoyed them. I haven't played them yet, but I have seen many improvements. I bought Champions, glad that Aaron was back. Now I know Aaron is far more 4 Color than I am... but did anyone else think too much of Champions bordered on corny? I have only had CU and CKC for a few days... and maybe the problem is that I have not given any of this new material enough time; but I'm not impressed. When I took them out of the box and saw that CU was roughly 1/2 the size of CKC, I said: something just doesn't seem right here.[/b] Haven't detail read them, but I've yet to find a supers supplement that can't be adapted (or use even a single character "out of the box" with no customizing). Take what you like, change what you don't. Prefer the old background? Use the old background! I wish to re-iterate. I am a long-time fan and supporter of Hero in all its incarnations (how many out there own the 6 Issue mini-series featuring the original Champions and DEMON?). Yup...and Flare. And Marksman. And I am not trying to disparage the work done by DOJ. Do I need to give it more time, and look at it all more closely? Or, perhaps, is this just not my flavor of Champions? At the risk of being flamed, I prefer it greatly to Dark Champions. Years ago, I overheard the comment "I prefer more realistic heroes...like the Punisher". Never quite got over that... How many times has he suffered life threatening wounds? Broken bones with no treatment? In unhygeinic conditions? Yet he stays in peak physical condition nonetheless...

My general rule (which is not the official rule, I know) is that switching between unusual defenses (Power, Mental and Flash) is not an advantage. It's silly to have to pay +1 1/2 to make your Flash work against mental or power defense. If it fits the conception, pick a different unusual defense. An energy blast acts against PD or ED - your choice. Why should unusual attacks carry an extreme cost to change to a different unusual defense?

I always like to add "This rule also applies to NPC's" This makes it a bit clearer that, if you persuade me to change my rule, it can and will be used against you.

I'll buy four. By the way, they're Universal Foci...my buddies will wear the other three today. No abuse there, right? They each spent 3 points to buy "Drive Armored Suit" skill!

Restricting to one knowledge roll seems reasonable. But this means I either pay +1/4 to broaden the group (or up to +1 to summon anything I want) and get to keep chaning my choice until I get my answer, or pay +1 for Specific being and get one roll only. Where's the advantage? For me the potential for abusive Summon constructs is too great if I were to allow a base “Summon Spirits of Dead Wizards†as anything other than an expanded class. I might even require it to have both Specific Individuals and expanded class, but that would depend on a lot of factors. See, there's the problem in a nutshell - there is no "specific individuals" advantage. There is only "Specific Individual" - you get this one guy, and that's it. If +1 allowed you to choose any specific individual from your chosen class, this would be worth the points. In fact, maybe the advantage should be based on the class available. No expanded class = no ability to summon specific individuals - they're generic. "Summon anything" means a further +1 advantage to select the specific "anything" rather than a random generic "whatever you summoned". I think the putting the advantage on Summon specific being is to discourage attempts to effectively build a follower with an unlimited teleport/EDM, and/or with limitations. Summon specific being has the potential to be extremely powerful, since it can be used to create a teleport/EDM usable as an attack effect that is virtually limitless in range and does not require an attack roll. Duplication can generate the follower effect quite nicely. All Summon really does is bring you a follower, assuming it's amicable - which is an advantage. I think the bigger issue is the "I summon Grond here now that we're all ready to Push and fire on where he will appear" construct - one which should clearly be disallowed anyway, not simply "Oh, I paid the +1 advantage so I can do this."

But "Summon generic creature" pretty much means it always shows up fully healed, so I'm paying +1 to get a specific wolf that comes wounded, instead of a generic creature with exactly the same stats. This is where the problem lies.