Hyper-Man

Points are a good measure of Plot Effectiveness.  If most of the adventures in a game have plots that can only be advanced via combat then combat effectiveness becomes Plot Effectiveness.  However if players want to create and play something besides combat optimized characters the system can handle it.

Direct combat effectiveness should not be the only factor in comparing characters. As long as the player with the skill heavy PC gets an equal opportunity to shine compared to the combat heavy PC's then points are doing their job.  Points are not just the character creation system, they are the XP system of HERO and I much prefer them to the alternative of class/level advancement.

For this to go well there needs to be open communication between the GM and Players at campaign inception so everyone has a good idea of what to expect from one another.

HM

I also believe that the Block Maneuver is part of the foundation of the HERO combat system. It is THE method for an otherwise slower character (lower DEX) to get "Iniative" vs a faster (higher DEX) opponent.

I don't know how or why you would want to try to recreate it via a Power.

HM

Martial Dodge giving a +5 DCV bonus goes all the way back to the Champions 1e days when the cost of Martial arts was = character's STR.

Danger International, one of the last games produced in the 1-3e days, introduced the skeleton of what evolved into the current individually purchased maneuver based martial art skill in HERO.  It is essentially one of the final holdovers from the "Package Deals" of the day as its 10 point minimum from one particular martial art is supposed to come with a 'Style Disadvantage' that can be recognized and taken advantage of by another character with the Analyze Style Skill.

Basically, HERO Martial Arts are one of the few exceptions to the general HERO rule divorcing effects from special effects.  HERO Martial Arts ARE special effect driven (specifically, the special effect of normal human bipedal anatomy). 

HM

These issues are why I always consider an Advantage approach for Targeting special effects via AOE Accurate (the way I have built Heat Vision and Magic Missile in the past).

HM

If the player is wanting to use PSL's to take advantage of Hit Locations to increase damage I would strongly consider using CSL's Limited to only increasing damage instead (this is how the Deadly Blow and Weaponmaster Talents are constructed).  This is especially faster at the game table if you don't normally use Hit Locations.  Be warned that mixing this and Hit Location modifiers can quickly produce crazy damage totals.

HM

You might find some useful insights from this thread about building real world weapons as well:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/91883-building-weapons-and-armor-or-how-i-suck-at-it-and-came-to-the-forum-for-help/

HM

From 6e1 page 84
 

OFFENSIVE PENALTY SKILL LEVELS
With the GM’s permission, characters can put Limitations on OPSLs. The GM may restrict which types of OPSLs a character can Limit; for example he might rule that only 3-point OPSLs can have Limitations.

 

HM

John Wick: Chapter Two is set for a Feb 2017 release.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4425200/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wick:_Chapter_Two

Plot

HM

This is one of the reasons that the 5e Resource Kit PDF is still a good buy.

To use with 6e just ignore or change the " (inches) to meters, 2 meters or any scale you want to use.

HM

I think that a lot of folk's problem with this combo has to do with the actual name "Haymaker".

re: Accuracy vs. Damage

It is worth noting that CSL's can be used to affect either and in fact the Deadly Blow and Weapon Master Talents are now actually constructed as CSL's that are limited to only boosting damage in 6e.  This puts them in a similar relationship to martial maneuvers that give a similar damage bonus to Haymaker with better CV and time modifiers. Also, Ranged martial maneuvers exist.

I wonder if Haymaker was renamed to something more generic like "Alpha Strike" with the exact same mechanics would everyone still have as much of an objection to its use?

HM

Changing strength minimums is a matter of adjusting one column on a chart.

Changing the strength stat means rebuilding every single character you've ever made and everyone else has ever made to match up with the redefined values for strength.  

 

No, Hulk, you don't lift 100 tons any more, the new chart says 72.573.  And your INT, based on that STR chart as a benchmark?  Its lower now too.  Rebuy.

Ignoring the supers/heroic thing for a moment, your argument works against changing the weapon minimums just as much if the heroic characters are built with their equipment on the character sheet (which some folks do).

I did it very simply by creating a baseline and placing everything in relation to the base. I dont even have to write it out. Just give me a weapon class and the DC and I can tell you the STR min.

It just boils down to house rule preference.  Changing the weapon charts seems like a bigger change to me since characters will actually do MORE damage.  Changing the lift value X STR just corrects the one part of the stat that seems a bit high. Tomato Potato.

HM

OK that makes an even bigger problem because then you can't port between genres or games.  Now each game has its own different ruleset.

 

And supers just exaggerates the problem; its still an issue if you wanted the guy that can lift a horse.  Now he can lift a goat.

Well that's already the case if you've been following the latest stuff in the Rules Forum.

see these 3 threads for details:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/93309-extra-weapon-and-combined-attack/

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/93319-re-extra-weapon-and-combined-attack/

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/93321-extra-weapon-and-combined-attack-iii/

Whether a focus is paid for with points (supers) or free equipment (heroic) makes a difference in what combat maneuvers are available.when 2 weapons are being used simultaneously.

HM

Leaping Lizards! Zornwil is a name I haven't heard in a long time.

HM

Nobody has suggested that the change would affect supers. Since we are discussing STR minimums from weapon charts I thought it was pretty clear that this was a Heroic Level ONLY type of change.

HM

Target Falls is likely going to be one of the more difficult effects to re-create whole cloth. The part that I haven't seen mentioned yet is how so many of the 'Martial' maneuvers have free counterparts (throw, trip move by, choke, etc..)

HM

But which action is really more work?

Changing lifting values for STR is a single change.

Changing STR minimums across the board for multiple weapons seems like a LOT more work to me.

HM

There are a bunch of great reviews of early HERO stuff just recently posted by rpggeek regular and big HERO/Champions fan sdonohue.

http://rpggeek.com/thread/browse/rpgitem/0?username=sdonohue&forumname=reviews&sort=recent

HM

I would imagine that there would be a small trade off in tolerances when firing the smaller rounds that could leave more barrel deposits. And these might eventually increase the chance for a jam/misfire when firing the larger rounds.  But regular cleaning should eliminate any such risk. I doubt the manufacturer would certify it for all 3 rounds if that wasn't the case.

Reminds me of the cautionary tale I heard about .40 caliber semi-auto pistols.  The magazines will usually accept 9mm rounds and attempt to fire them.

HM

I don't think it works that way in 6e. I seem to remember it did in 4e and maybe 5e? The stuff I see in 6e indicates that another application would simply raise the points up to the maximum effect of the aid in use.

 

- E

You are correct.

I was remembering a specific case with regards to positive Adjustments to 'Expendable' characteristics like Stun and Endurance.

from 6e1 page 136:

Similarly, if a character has an expendable Characteristic or Power increased to the maximum effect possible using an Adjustment Power, and he then uses up or removes some of what he gained, the Adjustment Power cannot be applied again until the Adjustment Power would fade naturally.

 

HM

This is why I suggested the custom value range of No Conscious Control to begin with. 

The other thing to consider is the result of the interactions of a Time Limit that expires before the Fade Rate ends ALL of the bonuses from an Aid.  This can be important as the rules state that a NEW Aid cannot be applied until the original effect is gone.  Does an earlier than normal Time Limit reset this "clock" so that a NEW Aid CAN be applied before the normal Fade Rate would dictate?

HM

When the two perfectly align, that works well. But when you want something in between....

 

27 4d6 Aid to Body, fade 5 points 20 minute (+1 1/4), (54 Active points) Time Limit: 1 Hour (-3/4), Gestures (-1/4)

vs

53 4d6 Aid to Body, Time Limit: 1 Hour (+1 1/2), (67 Active points) , Gestures (-1/4)

 

The points are different and the effect is different as well. I mean, I guess you could construct it as 1d6 limited to 20 minutes, 1d6 limited to 40 minutes and 2d6 limited to an hour, but I still don't think the points would work out right? And that gets very difficult to do with some dice and fade combinations? Am I missing an obvious point you are trying to make? 

 

- E

I would question how truly limiting the Time Limit Limitation actually is to the recipient of this particular build since when 60 minutes passes they will already have lost 15 points of effect (a non-insignificant portion of the maximum effect of of a 4d6 Aid).  The (-3/4) value in this case seems a little high to me but If you don't have a problem with characters using such a combo in a game where you're the GM it's OK then.

HM

I see it as opposite.  Changing strength minimums is a matter of a very small adjustment on a list of weapons.  Changing the lift for characters is a complete shift in the established rules of Hero Games since it was first printed.

Changing STR Minimums on HTH weapons will also change the final amount of damage a character can do with the weapons.

Changing how much a given value of STR can actually lift (in a heroic level game only) only changes how much a character can lift.

HM

Similar topic from a couple of old threads:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/90348-champions-complete-max-human-strength/

http://www.herogames...m-a-little-low/

bigdamnhero, on 04 Dec 2013 - 3:57 PM, said:

Yeah, I had a rant about this awhile back on (I think) the FB page. I totally see why Steve set the scores where they are based on canon and creator's guidelines. The book states Owen can lift 400 lbs => he has a 15 STR, QED. Julie & Holly both use weapons with Strength Minimums of 12 => they have 12 STR, QED.

 

But it's problematic from an RPG perspective when the entire range of STR among the human hunters is all of 3 points. Personally, I've always thought the Max Lift weights make no sense for most heroic campaigns, especially when compared to the Weapon Strength Minimums. I can shoot an M16 just fine, thank you; but even when I was in my best shape I couldn't lift 300 pounds without seriously pushing!

 

My solution for most modern heroic games is to simply redefine lifting STR one down on the STR table:

10 STR => 75 kg

13 STR => 100kg

15 STR => 150 kg

18 STR => 200 kg

20 STR => 300 kg

 

That would give Owen an 18 STR, and by extrapolation give Franks a 23 or 25. Julie & Holly can keep their 12s. I think that fits the feel of the books better.

No need to change anything else (damage, STR minimums, etc..)

HM

I don't think there is actually a need to use the Delayed Fade Rate Advantage at all.  Just use Time Limit to define duration of the initial rolled effect.

There is no change in Real Cost to do so:

9    Version 1: Aid  Body and Stun 2d6, Expanded Effect (x2 Characteristics or Powers simultaneously) (Body and Stun; +1/2), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Day; +2 1/4) (45 Active Points); Extra Time (5 Minutes, Character May Take No Other Actions, Replace "Character May Take No Other Actions" with +5 Minutes (10 Minutes total).; -2 1/4), Gestures, Requires Gestures throughout (-1/2), Incantations (Requires Incantations throughout; -1/2), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Time Limit (1 Day; -1/4) - END=4

 

9    Version 2: Aid  Body and Stun 2d6, Expanded Effect (x2 Characteristics or Powers simultaneously) (Body and Stun; +1/2), Time Limit (1 Day; +2) (42 Active Points); Extra Time (5 Minutes, Character May Take No Other Actions, Replace "Character May Take No Other Actions" with +5 Minutes (10 Minutes total).; -2 1/4), Gestures, Requires Gestures throughout (-1/2), Incantations (Requires Incantations throughout; -1/2), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2) - END=4

 

HM

Hi Steve,

I am confused by your answer to the previous question.

It appears that the character is getting a net benefit (access to the penalty free Combined Attack maneuver) for taking the Focus Limitation and Doubling Rule instead of being forced to use the Multiple Attack maneuver and its penalties.

Would the answer be the same if all references to the Focus Limitation are removed?

"What if a character buys an hka or rka with a focus limitation and then pays for an extra focus, can he use (it) both to make a combined attack if he has one in each hand?"

Thanks!

HM